Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. (Full Version)

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lightshineon -> Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. (8/30/2008 12:08:01 PM)

OK, first, I appreciate paid staff, very much the things they do. So CW members who are paid thank you. The thing I have noticed is paid staff, is given much more weight than that of elders or deacons or other leaders. What is the deal with this new trend? I have noticed this alot lately. Has anyone else noticed this. Please, no one take offense , I just wondered where the dividing lines were drawn.



rcjames -> RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. (8/30/2008 12:53:10 PM)

Hey lightshiningon, who are you designating as paid staff; office personell, music directors, Pastor or whom.

Be glad to give my opinion but would really like to know specifically who you are speaking about.

Thsnks
RC



Consecrated2God -> RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. (8/30/2008 6:33:05 PM)

I haven't noticed that at all, lightshineon. I remember in particular the church where my husband did his internship where he observed that the staff was sometimes resentful that they never got any input in decisions. The pastor met with the board and made decisions and then he'd tell the staff. That's the only church where we actually got to see what happens on the inside.

Here we don't have any staff--just the pastor, so it's not an issue. We do have a lady who comes and cleans once a week, but that's all.



elliemaejune -> RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. (8/30/2008 8:29:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon

OK, first, I appreciate paid staff, very much the things they do. So CW members who are paid thank you. The thing I have noticed is paid staff, is given much more weight than that of elders or deacons or other leaders. What is the deal with this new trend? I have noticed this alot lately. Has anyone else noticed this. Please, no one take offense , I just wondered where the dividing lines were drawn.

In the 34 years I've been a Christian, at all the churches I've attended, "paid staff" included pastor/associate pastor, church secretary/ies, possible music pastor; the pastors' opinions have always been given "much more weight," so I would not consider this a "new trend."

Perhaps if you describe the situation in your own church, I could understand your actual concerns better. I have never thought of any lines being drawn between the pastors and the elder/deacon boards.



lightshineon -> RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. (8/30/2008 10:00:25 PM)

I just have noticed that the youth pastor, admnistrative assistant, the childrens pastor, the co-childrens pastor, all have staff meetings on Tues mornings, and things are discussed and decided. I just noticed everyone wants to be staff. They even have a special professional pitcures of staff on website. Staff, at my former ( resigned last week), decisions were taken into account much more than the elders, or deacons. Now the cleaning lady no, (LOL).



Consecrated2God -> RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. (8/31/2008 7:46:42 AM)

Some kinds of decisions are more suited to be made by staff, and others by the board. If it's a financial decision, the board has to be involved because they need to approve it. So if the pastor wants to purchase a piece of equipment or some property or expand the ministry in a way that's going to financially impact the church, he talks to his board about it. If he needs some feedback over a change he's going to make that might be controversial, he also should talk to the board about it first. After all, they might be the ones to call for his resignation if he moves along without their input on important matters and makes bad decisions.

On the other hand, if it's something the staff needs to have more input in, and there's no finances involved, I don't see why he shouldn't consult with the staff. For example, if he's wanting the music director to play more hymns, or the children's pastor to structure the services a different way. I think those issues are more relevant to the staff.



GregandJenny -> RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. (8/31/2008 10:57:43 AM)

I think the staff and the board have different functions. In my church the staff deals with teaching, classes and what not. The board deals with the business side. It may seem like a new trend to some because they have been in a smaller church where it's hard to get people to volunteer to be elders or there is no (or very little) paid staff.


G



rcjames -> RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. (8/31/2008 3:51:30 PM)

I guess it really depends on the by-laws of the Chruch where cettain responsibilities lay.

The present staff and board (or whatever) should be abiding by the original by-laws.

If the folks (Church as a whole or at least a majority) do not like the by-laws, then they should be able to adjust them to some degree in most cases.

Thanks
RC



zoebob -> RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. (8/31/2008 4:11:22 PM)

In our church the elders are all responsible for the spiritual/growth state of the church. If anything, the pastor probably has less say. There are 2 types of elders: ruling elders and teaching elders. The pastor is a teaching elder. The AP and other men are ruling elders. The pastor is seen as the contact point so to speak. However, he deligates some duties to other elders: such as hospital visitation, etc. If you are in the hospital for a week someone may visit you every day or every other day but it won't always be the pastor. Also, each elder is assigned to oversee 1-2 home fellowship groups. Our YP attends all elder's events and has input but isn't an elder so doesn't get to vote. The session works with the deacon(s) and mercy team with business/financial type things



artemis -> RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. (9/1/2008 9:46:23 AM)

The church I grew up in and the chuch we most recently attended (a plant of the first church) were elder led and the pastor was an elder, but the other staff were not. In the first church, I thought the elders had too much control. They would hire a youth intern without even taking into consideration the youth director's preference. Even in an elder-led church, some decisions are best made by the staff who is there every day, has the time to research the decisions and will have to work to implement the decisions.

At the last church we attended, the pastor was an elder and all decisions were made by the elder board with the church policy stating that decisions had to be unanimous (small elder board... 3 men total, including the pastor). The other elders got together one night without the pastor, made some decisions and then informed him of their decisions later on. When he disagreed with them, they said that they outnumbered him. When he pointed out that the policy said that decisions had to be unanimous, they said that this was a special circumstance and they didn't have to follow that policy. They also said they would continue to make decisions that the pastor disagreed with if more "special circumstances" came up. The pastor resigned a few weeks later.

So... no, I haven't noticed paid staff getting more weight than other church leadership. I'm sure there are churches where it happens, but not in the ones I've been involved in.



elliemaejune -> RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. (9/3/2008 12:39:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon

I just have noticed that the youth pastor, admnistrative assistant, the childrens pastor, the co-childrens pastor, all have staff meetings on Tues mornings, and things are discussed and decided. I just noticed everyone wants to be staff. They even have a special professional pitcures of staff on website. Staff, at my former ( resigned last week), decisions were taken into account much more than the elders, or deacons. Now the cleaning lady no, (LOL).

I would expect the staff to have staff meetings. The things they do are different than what the deacons/elders do.



buckifn -> RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. (9/6/2008 6:47:48 PM)

Our board is not paid by our church, but we do have more authority than the Pastor, or any other staff person and we do have by-laws we follow on all major decisions.

The pastor cannot revoke a decision made by the board and the board can vote (3/4) carries enough weight to enact any decison made regardless of how other staff feels about it.



DaveW -> RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. (9/19/2008 12:20:58 PM)

Can anyone give me chapter and verse for "staff" members?



Marksman -> RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. (9/21/2008 2:42:08 AM)

DaveW, Beautiful grandkids. I have four of my own and a fifth on the way.

Has anyone thought of looking at the NT church for inspiration as to what we should be doing? I have completed a 12 month study of the subject and found some startling facts like no one was paid to be good. The church was always founded and led by the Apostles orginally and they handed over to unpaid local elders which were the older men chronologically.

There is no mention at all of "a pastor" leading a church. Clergy/laity was an unknown concept. The only priesthood that was recognised was the priesthood of all believers. There were no positions only ministries. Men were annointed before they were appointed.

The Holy Spirit decided who was annointed for ministry, not the denominational leadership (which didn't exist). Prayer was one of the main occupations of the church, not progressive dinners although they did meet in homes for meals.

[edited by moderator to remove link.]



DaveW -> RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. (9/22/2008 7:01:24 AM)

I read thru your teaching on biblical leadership and agree with much of it. I do not agree with your insisting that congregational leadership be unpaid. One scripture you did not deal with in the paper was:

1Co 9:14 So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.

This whole passage leading up to that would seem to refute your stance that congregational leadership be unpaid.

THe other thing was you need to really look at discipleship from a 2nd temple period Judiasm viewpoint. How Jewish elders were selected (it was not just physical age). Your views stated are too Greek to fit the early Jewish men and women who formed the first messianic faith congregations.



rwe2156 -> RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. (9/22/2008 7:49:38 AM)

Facing the same problems in my church. Actually HUGE problems.

The church secretary view her position on par with youth pastor.

We have a personnel committee in charge on ministerial staff - BAD BAD BAD.

Even though YP's job description states he is rsponsible to the pastor.

Staff should be divided and differentiated: Lay Staff and Minsterial Staff.

Ministerial Staff is answerable to the Deacons/Elders.

Lay Staff to the personnell committee.

Nuts and bolts of benefit packages for all staff is the resp. of personnel.

Agree?

See where there are big problems if youdon't divide staff?



Marksman -> RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. (9/25/2008 4:51:16 AM)

That is not the case for three reasons Dave. One is, you do not make a doctrine out of one verse of scripture, two you have missed the context of the chapter that the verse is in and three the fact that the general revelation of scripture does not support your contention.

First, Paul’s apostleship was being challenged by some false apostles who had come to Corinth to stir up the believers against him. The ninth chapter was his defence against them and to keep the Corinthian believers on side. The reference to being paid was in the context of defending his apostleship, not insisting that “a pastor” is paid, which would be contrary to the general revelation of scripture which is that no one was paid and no one was appointed “a pastor” to lead the church. The local assembly was always lead by a group of local unpaid Elders. There is not one single reference to ‘a pastor’ leading the local congregation in the NT.

Second, he said he had the right to financial support, and the general revelation of scripture is that it never talks about a weekly salary. Financial support for the apostles was on the basis of individuals or churches giving them gifts whilst they were travelling and could not earn an income. You will find that every time he put his roots down, he set up his business of making tents to support himself and his companions.

Third, although the apostles were entitled to live off the gospel (nowhere does it say a pastor is entitled to live of the gospel) in verse 15 it says that he chose not to do that, meaning that he supported himself. In verse 18 he says that his reward is to preach the gospel without charge.

The word for ‘pastor’ in the New Testament is ‘poimen’. This word is not in this passage of scripture, so it cannot be used to claim that pastors should be paid. Apart from the fact that having a pastor, or a priest as it was known originally leading a congregation did not happen until the third century, when Constantine legalised Christianity and in an effort to control what happened as it was now the official State religion, he instituted church government on the basis of civil government. It was during this period that the idea of ‘clergy’ came into being and that they were to be paid for being a priest. If they were already paid, Constantine would not have needed to insist that they be paid.

Your comment about how Jewish elders were selected and messianic congregations is not relevant for two reasons. One there is no indication that the government of the Jewish and gentile church was to be different. The Jewish church was governed by apostles for the first 14 years of its life and then they handed over to local Elders.

It is a known fact that a Jew could not be an Elder until he had reached the age of 40. Upon reaching that age appointment was not guaranteed as they had to measure up to the conditions of eldership. Reaching 40 did not guarantee that.

The fact that “The Way” as it was known then was a sect of Judaism originally, it would have been incongruous to appoint one man to lead the new faith. They would have continued the Jewish way of having a plurality of Elders in charge as pastoral leadership was unknown at that time.

The word ‘pastor’ only appears once in scripture and that is in Ephesians 4 and was introduced by Paul. He was not one of the original apostles so until the epistle to the Ephesians was written in 60-64 AD, the whole idea of a ministry of pastoring would have been absent.

The biggest problems rwe is when you don't follow the teaching of scripture.



DaveW -> RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. (9/25/2008 10:53:50 AM)

You have read stuff into my post that was not there.

I KNOW that "pastor" is used only once and that it is in the plural. I am NOT in favor of a lone gun pastor. Congregational leadership should always be a plurality. And they should always be under trans-local leadership of some kind.

But I would submit to you that "poimen" (pastor) and "presbuteros" (elder) are being used synonomously with the Ephesians passage being a descriptor. Poimen is used another 17 times in the NT with the rest of the instances translated "shepherd." in 1 Peter 2.25 Jesus is described as the Poimen and Episcupos (bishop) of our souls. Elder and bishop are also used interchangably.

While it is usually not proper to make a doctrine on a lone verse or passage, in some cases it is justified. We have the doctrine of baptizing in the name of Father Son and Spirit based only on Matt 28.

In this case, Paul is stating a basic truth to support his asertation of the apostles being what we would call "full time" preachers.

1Co 9:14 So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the gospel to get their living from the gospel.

No matter what you can pull together from the rest of scripture, you still have to fit this verse. EVERY verse has to fit.

If a pastor wishes to have a secular job, fine. But you cannot make a proper case to disallow full time elders.



Marksman -> RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. (9/27/2008 2:25:28 PM)

quote:

But I would submit to you that "poimen" (pastor) and "presbuteros" (elder) are being used synonomously with the Ephesians passage being a descriptor. Poimen is used another 17 times in the NT with the rest of the instances translated "shepherd." in 1 Peter 2.25 Jesus is described as the Poimen and Episcupos (bishop) of our souls. Elder and bishop are also used interchangably.


This is quite untrue. The pastor of Ephesians was an appointment of Christ. the Elders were appontments of the local church. A pastor shepherds, an elder oversees, teaches, shepherds and corrects. A pastor does not oversee, correct or teach. In the Greek poimen is not translated pastor, it is translated shepherd.

Poimen does not appear 17 times. If it does, I have a dfferent bible to yours. The bible is not ambiguous. If presbuterous was meant to be poimen then that is what it would say. The fact that it doesn't means that they are different words for different ministries. Poimen has to do with shepherding, presbuteros has to do with elders.

The baptism in the trinity is a classic case of not making a doctrine out of one verse of scripture. Every other reference is always baptism in the name of Jesus, so we have to justify the trinity formula which we can't in the light of all the other references. It is all there in my website.

We may call them full time preachers but they are not apostles. An apostle is a sent one, who goes out to preach the gospel to the unsaved and establishes churches. 99% of full time preachers do not do this. Apostles are not called to lead an existing congregation.

I have fitted this verse in the context of the letter. You have to fit this verse if you ignore the context.

I can and have made a case for unpaid elders. It is all there in my website.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. (9/28/2008 1:35:21 PM)

What Bible are you using, Mark? What gives you a basis for writing that what Dave wrote is "quite untrue" -- in other words, a lie? I don't know -- I haven't counted the times the Greek word appears in all the Greek Bibles I have, but it is horribly presumptuous for you to write something like that. Irritating. Uncalled for. You presume ignorance in all of us, you also presume that we are all in single-"pastor" churches, you presume that we all baptize the same way, that we are ignorant of what an apostle is.

You seem to just be here to advertize your website. Why?



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. (9/28/2008 2:06:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lightshineon
I just have noticed that the youth pastor, admnistrative assistant, the childrens pastor, the co-childrens pastor, all have staff meetings on Tues mornings, and things are discussed and decided. I just noticed everyone wants to be staff. They even have a special professional pitcures of staff on website. Staff, at my former ( resigned last week), decisions were taken into account much more than the elders, or deacons. Now the cleaning lady no, (LOL).

Since you included the administrative assistant, then I am also paid staff at the church where I work. I was initially hired for my job as church secretary by the board when the church was between pastors. Since the pastor has come, I have been promoted twice and am now the administrative assistant and more.

Our photographs have not been taken and placed on the website, but I think it would be a good idea for all the staff's photos to be taken and posted, because then, new people would know whom to approach about various needs. But I guarantee you that if we did this, the "cleaning lady's" photo would be right there with us. I have no idea why hers would not be. She holds a position that is just as important as anyone else's.

If you don't mind, please allow me to share something. Without the cleaning personnel, no one would have services. Period. Whether or not the cleaning personnel is volunteers from the congregation or paid employees, I would challenge every congregation to stop cleaning ANYTHING for just two weeks and see what the facility looks like. We will learn very quickly that the cleaning personnel does G-d's work.

Yes, we do have staff meetings every other Wednesday, where things are discussed and decided. This is just part of what keeps everyone "in the know," where ideas are suggested, where calendars are updated, and where jobs are distributed. It's that simple. But the board also has its meetings, as do the teaching staff and other committees.

The thing is, Lightshine, each group has its limitations and they know it. Those things that are beyond their limitations are taken to the board, the board answers and sends their decision back down, and the other group complies.



PopsiLufsJesus -> RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. (9/28/2008 3:51:50 PM)

We don't have committees in our church. The Pastor says that it is the easiest way to divide a church...



klpowell -> RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. (9/28/2008 4:26:45 PM)

Mark, you are saying that full-time paid ministers are against the Bible? I have been caleld by God just as RC has been to minister full time. I have a good paying job now and trust me my finicial life would be better off keeping it and not devoting fully to the ministry. But, GOD has called me to do that. And if that is wrong are you saying that God is wrong?



Marksman -> RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. (9/28/2008 9:48:59 PM)

quote:

What Bible are you using, Mark?

The one that the Holy Spirit wrote, and I think that I would prefer to hear what Dave has to say as what I wrote was written to him.

quote:

Mark, you are saying that full-time paid ministers are against the Bible? I have been caleld by God just as RC has been to minister full time. I have a good paying job now and trust me my finicial life would be better off keeping it and not devoting fully to the ministry. But, GOD has called me to do that. And if that is wrong are you saying that God is wrong?

What I am saying if you care to check my website, which you will need to do as it would be imprudent to post about 70 pages here, is what the NT says about the subject.

Whilst I was studying the topic, I wrote to several notable church leaders about the topic, and in every case, not one said I was wrong because...but they did try and justify their position, mainly from denominational tradition, which in every case was not supported by scripture, which I pointed out to them. They could not counteract anything I said, so it didn't take much to work out who was ignoring scripture. But that has been the story of the church for hundreds of years.

One thing I have learnt in my 54 years as a christian is that God doesn't call us to do something that is contrary to his word. When we do that we do it for two reasons. One, we do not know what his word says, two, we don't want to know what his word says. Í have talked to denominational leadership and they have made it quite clear that tradition has more authority than scripture and if scripture challenges the positon of power they have, they make the scripture say what they want it to say to enable them to maintain their position of power.



Marksman -> RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. (9/28/2008 9:52:16 PM)

quote:

myIchthus Ministry Group

Please give my regards to Roger Kris. He was a visiting lecturer when I was studying at Moorlands Bible College. I have found his series on Church History very useful.



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