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RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. - 10/2/2008 7:40:00 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marksmanquote:
Poimen is used another 17 times in the NT with the rest of the instances translated "shepherd." A pastor does not oversee, correct or teach. In the Greek poimen is not translated pastor, it is translated shepherd.
Poimen does not appear 17 times. If it does, I have a dfferent bible to yours. The bible is not ambiguous
Instances of Poimen in the NT (Strongs #G4166)
1 Matt 9.36 shepherd
2 Matt 25.32 shepherd
3 Matt 26.31 shepherd
4 Mark 6.34 shepherd
5 Mark 14.27 shepherd
6 Luke 2.8 shepherd
7 Luke 2.15 shepherd
8 Luke 2.18 shepherd
9 Luke 2.20 shepherd
10 John 10.2 shepherd
11 John 10.11 shepherd shepherd (twice in this verse)
12 John 10.12 shepherd
13 John 10.14 shepherd
14 John 10.16 shepherd
15 Eph 4.11 PASTORS
16 Heb 13.20 shepherd
17 1 Pet 2.25 shepherd
So I can agree with you that poimen = shepherd. The term 'pastor' which only appears in the NT once in Eph 4.11 probably should be shepherd as well. So that means in NT terminology that a pastor is in reality a shepherd.
In the Hebrew scriptures (OT) KJV translation, 'pastor' appears 8 times, being translated from rah'ah which Strongs (H7462) explains:
A primitive root; to tend a flock, that is, pasture it; intransitively to graze (literally or figuratively); generally to rule; by extension to associate with (as a friend): - X break, companion, keep company with, devour, eat up, evil entreat, feed, use as a friend, make friendship with, herdman, keep [sheep] (-er), pastor, + shearing house, shepherd, wander, waste.
I.E. - in biblical usage pastor and shepherd are interchangable terms.
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RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. - 10/2/2008 8:54:36 AM
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bluetop66
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I am a member of a fairly new small church that is on a growth upswing. It is exciting to see the growth in our church and the people it is reaching, however, I am concerned with a few issues that are related to the post that you have started. I have just returned from a finance meeting at our church and am worried and discouraged about the direction our church is heading. Please give me any insight as to whether my fears are founded -
Our church is a new church (about three years old) split from another church. When the church started, the Pastor wanted to have much control over the running of the church. As the new church was formed it had a leadership team, to bounce concerns with ministry issues off of, and a finance team, to help set budgets and monitior the financial health of the church.
As time has progressed, our pastor has become more and more controlling of the situation at church, and much of the leadership team and finance team has resigned because the advice they give the Pastor does not seem to be even given consideration by the pastor.
The pastor has taken it upon himself to modify the budget as he sees fit. The finance team is not consulted on any financial matters, and has not been informed of ANY financial decisions that affect the budget. Additionally the pastor has not taken the advice or direction from his leaders.
As of our meeting, the pastor has decided to dissolve the finance and lead teams and to have the paid staff (himself, the music minister, and the assistant pastor) set and control the budget and make any ministry decisions. He said he will personally choose three trustees whose sole duties will be to sign legal documents and set salaries - but will have no input into budget or ministry concerns.
I asked him if he felt it was healthy to not involve any non-paid members of the church on the decision making process and he responded that it was self preservation. He felt that the church would decide they no longer need him if they were given a voice.
He expressed the opinion that it was his vision and direction from God that has grown the church and it was his vision that the church would continue to follow.
Am I right in questioning this line of thought? He has expressed that there are many other churches that have this same structure and that it is the trend that churches are leaning towards now. I am concerned that in order to truly be part of the body of Christ, there should be more than one person making all of the important decisions that affect the church body. I do not want anyone that has found Christ through our church to be disillusioned by the way our church is run, because people have found Christ through our church.
Please pray for our church and let me know your thoughts.
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RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. - 10/2/2008 11:43:15 AM
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Marksman
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From: Drouin, Victoria, Australia
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Nice try DaveW but totally irrelevant to the subject. All the verses you quoted except one refer to Jesus as our shepherd. They have nothing at all to do with men appointed by God to shepherd the local congregation.
Bluetop66, it sounds like you have a typical situation where the leadership of the church is not according to scripture. Having a superior person in charge, which is not scriptual, will always bring problems with it because the Jesus model of leadership is servanthood, not lording it over.
Your so called pastor obviously believes it is his church which again is contrary to scripture as Jesus said it is his church and he would build it.
You only have two options. One, go along with his dictatorship and let him rule the roost and see the church decline as God will not bless the ministry of someone who lords it over.
Or you can confide in two or three brothers who you trust and feel the same way about things as you do and ask the pastor to meet with you so that you can lay out your concerns before him and why you feel that his actions are not acceptable.
If he accepts what you say then you can rebuild. If he doesn't you either have to leave or ask for his resignation as there is no use continuing with someone like that running the show as you will be flogging a dead horse. In 10 years time you will still be doing the same thing as you are now to no effect.
In the event of his resigning, do not replicate the same failed system by appointing another paid pastor. Put in place a body of unpaid elders who are the senior men of the fellowship who will be responsible for the oversight of the fellowship, teaching, shepherding and correction. This will produce growth because it is scriptural.
_____________________________
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RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. - 10/2/2008 1:51:18 PM
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bluetop66
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Marksman,
Thank you for your advice, I along with some of my brothers and sisters in Christ have tried to confront the pastor, but to no avail. Additionally, he has held total dictatorship in the church and has set things up so tht it is almost impossible for him to be removed. He considers this church: his vision from God, a church he founded, and he treats himself more like the CEO of a company than a servant of Christ and the church.
Of course this is not scriptural, and my family and I are planning on finding another church home. I do not want to see any church fail, especially if it has brought people to know Jesus as their savior, however I am afraid that it may. It has really grown (to almost 300 people) over the three years it has been in existence. Our church has been able to gain new members, however also loses quite a few. It seems like the main ones that are leaving are ones that have seemed to have gotten too close to how things are really run and become disgruntled and leave.
My biggest heartache is the people that will be left in the church when we leave. The church has been able to reach a lot of people that society would have otherwise rejected and who have found Christ and are growing in their faith. Our church has a really nice service on Sunday, but I believe if we are not running our church spritually, we may cause some of the newer people to our faith to stumble and fall.
I have struggled with the issues I have discussed for almost two years, and have only seen things get worse. I have stuck it out hoping I could make a difference in the way our church was run, but believe it is time to move on. I have expressed my concerns, but feel like I am almost abandoning those who are less informed by finding a new church home.
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RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. - 10/3/2008 1:36:57 AM
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gmc4Jesus
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Paul told Timothy in I Timothy 5:17-18:
17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. 18 For the Scripture says, “Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,”b and “The worker deserves his wages.”
The Holy Bible : New International Version. 1996, c1984 (electronic ed.) (1 Ti 5:17-18). Grand Rapids: Zondervan.
In I Corinthians 9:3-14, he writes:
3 This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me. 4 Don’t we have the right to food and drink? 5 Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephasa? 6 Or is it only I and Barnabas who must work for a living?
7 Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat of its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink of the milk? 8 Do I say this merely from a human point of view? Doesn’t the Law say the same thing? 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses: “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.”b Is it about oxen that God is concerned? 10 Surely he says this for us, doesn’t he? Yes, this was written for us, because when the plowman plows and the thresher threshes, they ought to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. 11 If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12 If others have this right of support from you, shouldn’t we have it all the more?
But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ. 13 Don’t you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.
The Holy Bible : New International Version. 1996, c1984 (electronic ed.) (1 Co 9:3-14). Grand Rapids: Zondervan.
Although he comments in the Corinthian passage that he did not expect a salary from the Corinthian church, he did depend on support from other churches much of his ministry.
Although volunteers are needed and important, those who labor full time for the Lord are entitled to a liveable wage for the work that they do.
Bottm line, each church has to work this out for their own situation.
God bless you as you labor to serve Him and His Kingdom, the Church.
_____________________________
Let's talk about Jesus, His life and teachings at the www.gettingtoknowjesus.org Gospel Study Forum.
Home of "Getting To Know Jesus", a complete Bible study on the life and teachings of Jesus.
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RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. - 10/3/2008 6:53:27 AM
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DaveW
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bluetop66 - sorry for your situation. It is unbiblical to be the "ceo" of a congregation. Bibilcally everyone including the pastor has to be in subjection and accountable to someone. That gives a safeguard for congregants thru an appeals proccess. It is rebellious to not have that. (BTW, even CEOs are accountable to the board of directors)
The problem in this congregation is that he is raising up believers to be as rebellious as he is.
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We are now grandparents TWICE!!
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RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. - 10/3/2008 7:29:47 AM
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Marksman
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From: Drouin, Victoria, Australia
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“Let the Elders (plural) who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labour in Word and doctrine”. I have yet to find any scripture that says "Pastors who rule well are to be counted worthy of double honour?"
As in every other reference to Elders, this verse literally says “Let the older senior members of the fellowship that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially if they work hard in teaching and instruction”. The term “double honour” by the way has nothing to do with money, it means esteem and dignity.
If one is going to insist from these verses as most do that the scripture supports the paying of a pastor, it becomes a case of selective application. These verses are addressed to the ministry of an Elder, not a pastor, so if anyone is going to be paid it is the Elders. If you are going to pay someone according to this scripture, you are going to have to pay Elders (plural) not one pastor or one Elder as the church in the New Testament does not know the concept of one Elder.
The reason that some people believe that 1 Timothy 5 v 17 + 18 is sufficient to justify employing paid pastors is due to their lack of understanding of what is being said. Paul states that an Elder who rules well and works hard at preaching and teaching should be given double honour. He doesn’t say should be paid or given money.
They then pounce on the phrase “the labourer is worthy of his hire.” “There you are” they say, “That proves the scripture supports a paid pastor.”
First of all, you should never base a doctrine or truth on one verse of scripture and as this is the only verse that mentions money in the context of elders, it is insufficient to make a doctrine from it. The bible is its best commentator and as there are no other verses that suggest paid eldership it should be discounted on that basis.
Second, this verse has nothing at all to do with pastors. It is talking about elders and it is plural, not singular. This is conveniently overlooked by the paid pastor proponents.
The scripture makes it quite clear that eldership is a ministry of serving and requires no monetary payment. The acknowledgment of a job well done and God's approval are all that’s needed.
Contrary to this passage supporting the paying of a salary to a pastor, it does the opposite. The New Testament word for pay or wages in Greek is ‘misthos’ or ‘opsonion’. The word used here in the term “double honour” is ‘time’ which means esteem or dignity. If it is saying to pay Elders it would use the Greek words which mean that. The fact that it doesn’t means that you cannot build a case to pay elders and certainly not to pay a pastor who isn’t even mentioned.
One definitely comes unstuck if you insist this passage sets down the authority to pay pastors. The same word ‘honour’ (time) is found in Romans 12 v 10 where we are told to “honour one another above yourselves”. Those who insist honour means pay will have to honour the totality of scripture and pay everybody in the church a salary. If they don’t they are opening themselves to the charge of interpreting scripture to suit their tradition and ignoring the overall revelation of scripture.
The Corinthian passage it about Apostles, not pastors or elders. The apostles were not paid a salary, they were given gifts while they were travelling as they could not support themselves. Once they were settled in a place Paul made tents to support himself and his companions. More than once Paul made it quite clear he would not accept money from the church whilst he had the ability to support himself, making it clear his reward was being able to preach the gospel.
_____________________________
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RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. - 10/3/2008 7:35:09 AM
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Marksman
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I understand your situation bluetop as I left a church six months ago because "the pastor"made it quite clear that he was the only one who heard from God and he was the only one who knew what the scripture meant and the only people that were allowed a platform ministry was those "credentialled"by the denomination.
I left behind kind and caring people but flogging a dead horse is not my preferred activity, so there is no point in being a spectator and watch the church fade into insignificance.
_____________________________
God Bless America
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RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. - 10/3/2008 11:09:48 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluetop66
. . . [the pastor] has held total dictatorship in the church I was in a church like that at one time. Even though I had been attending the same church in that town for several years, when he became the pastor, he pointedly informed me that it was "his church" before he booted me out for noncompliance with his rules which applied to me and my husband (with some others) but not to certain other members of "his" church. Leaders like this need to be given some space -- as in if it bothers the congregants that their pastor is a little hitler, hard as it is, they should find another place of worship -- before it gets worse.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bluetop66
My biggest heartache is the people that will be left in the church when we leave. The church has been able to reach a lot of people that society would have otherwise rejected and who have found Christ and are growing in their faith. . . .
I have struggled with the issues I have discussed for almost two years, and have only seen things get worse. I have stuck it out hoping I could make a difference in the way our church was run, but believe it is time to move on. . . .
I stayed on 12.5 years after i knew I should have left, Blue. Guess what it brought me and my family. I will not go into detail, but unbelievable abuse, especially to my daughter and stepdaughter. I helped no one, especially my own family, by staying.
Thank you, GMC, for your usual common sense calling of Scripture to show what G-d intended.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. - 10/4/2008 2:23:43 PM
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Marksman
Posts: 271
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quote:
Thank you, GMC, for your usual common sense calling of Scripture to show what G-d intended.
Except for the fact that it is an incorrect interpretation of what God said.
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RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. - 10/4/2008 7:27:03 PM
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DaveW
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Does your congregation have a set of by-laws?
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We are now grandparents TWICE!!
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RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. - 10/5/2008 12:38:36 PM
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draexo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marksman
DaveW, Beautiful grandkids. I have four of my own and a fifth on the way.
Has anyone thought of looking at the NT church for inspiration as to what we should be doing? I have completed a 12 month study of the subject and found some startling facts like no one was paid to be good. The church was always founded and led by the Apostles orginally and they handed over to unpaid local elders which were the older men chronologically.
There is no mention at all of "a pastor" leading a church. Clergy/laity was an unknown concept. The only priesthood that was recognised was the priesthood of all believers. There were no positions only ministries. Men were annointed before they were appointed.
The Holy Spirit decided who was annointed for ministry, not the denominational leadership (which didn't exist). Prayer was one of the main occupations of the church, not progressive dinners although they did meet in homes for meals.
If you want to see the whole teaching go to http://churchalive66.googlepages.com There is some stuff about communion and baptism as well.
What is more troubling is that most people are not aware of this truth!
_____________________________
The truth will set you free!
TRUTH
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RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. - 10/5/2008 5:33:49 PM
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Marksman
Posts: 271
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From: Drouin, Victoria, Australia
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quote:
Does your congregation have a set of by-laws?
Yes, it is called the word of God
quote:
What is more troubling is that most people are not aware of this truth!
Yes it is but not surprising as there are too many people out there who have an investment in positions of power, not unlike the pharisees of Jesus day.
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RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. - 10/6/2008 1:15:48 PM
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bluetop66
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Thanks for everyone's input. I was fortunate to find this forum to express my views exterior to the members of my church and my community because I did not want to cause discontent in others.
As far as our church bylaws - I have asked for a copy of our charter or organization structure and was basically just brushed off. I have been pretty much told by the Pastor that he has the right to change anything as he sees fit.
I, as well as a few others, have seen the dangers of how he is running the church and are seeking somewhere else to worship. Fortunately I am in an area with a variety of great places to worship.
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RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. - 10/7/2008 11:44:58 AM
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DaveW
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So there is no way to reign this guy in? Too bad. I hope you find a good congregation to settle into.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. - 10/9/2008 2:19:08 PM
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Lycea
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From: Kansas
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In our church the pastor is simply there to give pastoral care and preach and teach. The pastor is not the head elder, nor does the pastor make decisions without the elder's board, except decisions regarding the areas of teaching, preaching and giving pastoral care.
Even the elders board takes major decisions to the congregation for a decision, no one is a dictator in our church.
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It all boils down to this: Love God, Love Each Other.
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RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. - 10/9/2008 2:50:03 PM
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Marksman
Posts: 271
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From: Drouin, Victoria, Australia
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quote:
In our church the pastor is simply there to give pastoral care and preach and teach.
I can't find anywhere in the NT where it says the pastor preaches and teaches. Can you direct me to the appropriate verses please?
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RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. - 10/11/2008 11:43:15 AM
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Lycea
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From: Kansas
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Marksman, that is not directly related to the OP. And it is not the heart of my post, which was that the paid staff person in our church does not have more authority or decision-making power than the rest of the deacons/elders. Each has authority in their specific ministry to make decisions, but bigger ones go to the board, and major ones to the congregation for discussion and approval/disapproval.
If you want to discuss the definition of leadership roles in the church, I am pretty sure there are other threads in which we have interacted.
Grace and Peace
_____________________________
It all boils down to this: Love God, Love Each Other.
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RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. - 10/11/2008 11:50:48 AM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4939
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quote:
If you want to discuss the definition of leadership roles in the church, I am pretty sure there are other threads in which we have interacted.
I am sure there are.
Please keep this one on topic as the OP has requested.
Sincerely,
Lisa Luper
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RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. - 10/13/2008 2:35:51 AM
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lightshineon
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Wow this thread has taken off. I think some pastors see staff, as their " employees", the ceo thing, and makes some pastors feel important, Kind of a political thing; on the other hand, this is not always the case, and I understand staff is very important. I just left a church, though that on the website, their are professional photos done of the staff. Some, of these folks I cannot believe are staff, and the staff is not held to an accountable standard, as elders are. See the difference?
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. - 10/14/2008 7:05:05 PM
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ffbruce
Posts: 271
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Marksman
I understand your situation bluetop as I left a church six months ago because "the pastor"made it quite clear that he was the only one who heard from God and he was the only one who knew what the scripture meant and the only people that were allowed a platform ministry was those "credentialled"by the denomination.
I can see why that would be a major problem for you.
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RE: Paid Staff vs. Elders, and other leaders. - 10/14/2008 7:15:35 PM
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ffbruce
Posts: 271
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
OK, first, I appreciate paid staff, very much the things they do. So CW members who are paid thank you. The thing I have noticed is paid staff, is given much more weight than that of elders or deacons or other leaders. What is the deal with this new trend? I have noticed this alot lately. Has anyone else noticed this. Please, no one take offense , I just wondered where the dividing lines were drawn.
This is going to depend largely on both the denomination as well as the individual church. I've known pastors who pretty much just run the whole show, and have also known some who aren't sure whether or not they can go to the bathroom without first asking permission.
Some pastors, in some mega-churches, have kind of taken on a rock-star persona. That's not intended to be snarky, but it does point out that everybody knows why everybody is at that church - and it's because the pastor puts on a great show.
Obviously, neither extreme is good.
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