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RE: Science only contributes atheism? - 9/22/2008 7:57:51 PM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL:esquote:
Yes, and Newtonian mechanics is nothing more than an attempt to explain classical mechanics by purely materialistic means. I can't help it if you don't like what science is and how it works.
Ah, sarcasm. An excellent tactic for a bogus argument, plus it adds beautifully to your smoke screen.
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Nice attempt at misdirection. However, what do you think would happen to a teacher who suggests to his class that they consider that possibility?
If presented, briefly, as an 'option' of how some people think about evolution: nothing.
I suggest you wake up and smell the coffee. Here is an example of what DOES happen.
“In January 2005, in Selman et al. v. Cobb County School District et al., U.S. District Judge Clarence Cooper ruled that a evolution warning label required in Cobb County textbooks violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. The disclaimer stickers stated, "This textbook contains material on evolution. Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living things. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered." After the district court's decision, the stickers were removed from Cobb’s textbooks. The school district, however, appealed to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals and in May 2006 the Appeals Court remanded the case to the district court for clarification of the evidentiary record. On December 19, 2006, the lawsuit reached a settlement; the Cobb County School District agreed not to disclaim or denigrate evolution either orally or in written form.” - http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/4911_legal_background_2_15_2001.asp
_____________________________
"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
Visit my home church.
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RE: Science only contributes atheism? - 9/22/2008 9:53:21 PM
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essentialsaltes
Posts: 1083
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From: Inglewood, CA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
quote:
quote:
Nice attempt at misdirection. However, what do you think would happen to a teacher who suggests to his class that they consider that possibility?
If presented, briefly, as an 'option' of how some people think about evolution: nothing.
I suggest you wake up and smell the coffee. Here is an example of what DOES happen.
“In January 2005, in Selman et al. v. Cobb County School District et al., U.S. District Judge Clarence Cooper ruled that a evolution warning label required in Cobb County textbooks violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. The disclaimer stickers stated, "This textbook contains material on evolution. Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living things. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered." After the district court's decision, the stickers were removed from Cobb’s textbooks. The school district, however, appealed to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals and in May 2006 the Appeals Court remanded the case to the district court for clarification of the evidentiary record. On December 19, 2006, the lawsuit reached a settlement; the Cobb County School District agreed not to disclaim or denigrate evolution either orally or in written form.” - http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/articles/4911_legal_background_2_15_2001.asp
Offering the philosophical option of theistic evolution neither disclaims nor denigrates evolution.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Science only contributes atheism? - 9/23/2008 10:15:36 AM
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KaseyTom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
If the OT is literally true, the fields of science such a paleontology, geology, astronomy, astrophysics and the like not only have to be wrong, they have to be spectacularly wrong. Sun revolves around the earth wrong. Flat earth wrong.
The only way science could be this wrong is if the scientific method is completely broken. If the scientific method was this broken it would impact all fields of science, not just those that conflict with the ot.
So I was asking for examples of fields of science that don't conflict with the OT that are as spectacularly wrong as those that do.
Or alternatively, some other explanation as to why the fields of science that conflict with the OT are so broken and other fields are not.
Continue this discussion here:
http://forums.crosswalk.com/Why_is_only_the_science_the_conflicts_with_the_OT_so_wrong%3f/m_3832000/mpage_1/tm.htm#3832000
RIP thread - it's been fun.
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RE: Science only contributes atheism? - 9/29/2008 4:56:09 AM
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ask_questions
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Science is the systematic knowledge and evidence of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
Faith is the exact opposite.
End of thread.
_____________________________
Your local rationalist.
"Men never commit evil so fully and joyfully as when they do it for religious convictions"
- Albert Einstein
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RE: Science only contributes atheism? - 9/29/2008 8:59:23 AM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ask_questions
Science is the systematic knowledge and evidence of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
Faith is the exact opposite.
End of thread.
This thread (according to the OP) is whether or not science is capable of answering "the big questions" concerning faith, and whether or not science inevitably contributes to atheism. You go ahead and be the judge: does saying that faith is the opposite of science really close the case on that questoin?
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RE: Science only contributes atheism? - 9/29/2008 9:41:33 AM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL: ask_questions quote:
Science is the systematic knowledge and evidence of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
Faith is the exact opposite.
What do you mean by “exact opposite”? Opposite of systematic? Opposite of knowledge? Opposite of having evidence? Opposite of pertaining to the physical or material world? Or opposite of being gained through observation and experimentation?
Please provide a more explicit explanation of what you mean.
quote:
End of thread.
I am having trouble seeing where you even addressed the OP. How is stating that faith is the opposite of science either an affirmation or a denial of the claim that science can only contribute to atheism?
_____________________________
"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
Visit my home church.
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RE: Science only contributes atheism? - 9/29/2008 12:02:21 PM
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charlotte123
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This is just another example of how most of the science (that is available for the public to see) is presented in such a way that treats theory as fact, and all these facts contradict theistic religions. 'think', 'may have', and 'plausible' become 'know', 'did' and 'true'.
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RE: Science only contributes atheism? - 10/3/2008 2:09:06 AM
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abraxas
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I'm not of the opinion that science can provide for all human needs. But, I do see one big difference between science and faith. They both (roughly) take the shape of a funnel, but science gradually moves people towards consensus (large end to small end), and faith is small end to large end. 2,000 years ago there was probably a time with a single Christian church. But today there are thousands, so they have moved away from consensus.
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RE: Science only contributes atheism? - 10/3/2008 12:17:56 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
I'm not of the opinion that science can provide for all human needs. But, I do see one big difference between science and faith. They both (roughly) take the shape of a funnel, but science gradually moves people towards consensus (large end to small end), and faith is small end to large end. 2,000 years ago there was probably a time with a single Christian church. But today there are thousands, so they have moved away from consensus.
Well, there are a lot of divisions in science as well. All (I hope) scientists are seeking the truth, and there is one truth, so eventually there should be a consensus, but there are a lot of divisions on how to interpret some facts. You mentioned faith, but you focused on Christianity, so I will as well. We of all people should not be divided because of our common belief that there is ONLY one truth in the Bible, and it has been revealed to us. For the most part, denominations are separated based on style with very few differences in beliefs. The church is united in its faith in Christ, and we are separated based on how we act it out, just like the cells on our body are united in the fact that they are all "us", but they are separated in their roles and locations. As much as I would like to see more unity between the churches, it would seem that these styles are enough to keep us from unity.
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RE: Science only contributes atheism? - 10/3/2008 5:28:38 PM
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Dan94
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Science can also prove that a body, nailed to the cross, with all the blood poured out, so that only water came out at the thrust of a spear..That body can not again...by scientific proof! could never contain life again. Especially having been buried after 3 days in the grave.
Now brothers and sisters in the Lord hear wisdom, The secret things belong to the Lord but the things revealed belong to us and to our children, Deut.29:29. The same Word that speaks of the resurrection also speaks of "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" Genesis 1:1. But whether this can be or can not be scientifically proven does not matter to me...I mean how could it? If I were to start to question Him in unbelief, simply because I could not find a rock, or I found a bone I could not explain, no video tape to see how He did it. THEN I MUST ALSO SEE A VIDEO OF THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST! I must have proof that He did this. But wait I have unscientific proof of a changed life, I have the unscientific proof of a peace that surpasses all understanding. I have never asked Christ how or when or if one of His days are measured by my understanding...personally I think He has a bigger wrist watch then mine. Maybe He looks at His watch to see how long brother will argue with brother on matters of the heart...and that in front of unbelievers who are amused perhaps by our lack of video to prove to them what God says is true. Gentlemen and Ladies of the jury I rest my case...closing arguments please...before the judge...the real Judge of the earth.
_____________________________
Born Again into true life on Oct.1,1994
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RE: Science only contributes atheism? - 10/12/2008 12:02:47 AM
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lightbeamrider
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What a way to spend a Saturday night. For the past two or three hrs (?) i have spent fixated on this puter reading all this and my head is swimming. Thank u all so very much for teaching me this evening. Even though that may not have been ur intention. God Bless all of u. I do not remember when i was ever so taken aback. Fascinating!
Socrates was mentioned earlier. As i recall he was compelled to drink hemlock for alleged crimes against youth. His students embraced his unbelief, some did not however embrace his ethics. As a result there were roving bands of anarchists causing havoc in Athens. I suppose they came to a different conclusion. If God is dead, anything goes? Do we really hate our children that much to teach them they are the image of ape as opposed to the image of God? The experts tell us, biologically there is little difference between ape and man which i assume is fact. Evolution tells us man evolved from ape like creatures and therefore man is the image of ape. Hairless ape with a big brain? God is left out of the equation. So under these conditions what is stopping your students from embracing anarchy the same way some of the students of Socrates embraced the same? In the 20th century under the ''scientific'' ideology of Marxist-Leninism 100 million were killed according to the Black Book of Communism. Communism embraces atheistic evolution. Earlier i had the National Geographic channel on. It was about China which basically takes criminals out back and shoots them in the head by the thousands. Their body parts were then harvested. Does China embrace evolution too? It was a real life horror story. If evolution is true then we really are not that far out of the jungle anyway. If your students believe you then do not be surprised if they turn against you or society and take everything that is not nailed down.
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RE: Science only contributes atheism? - 10/12/2008 6:31:56 PM
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Aristocrat
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I think that conversion to Christianity requires a leap of faith. You must accept all the doctrine that Christianity professes, without question.
Unfortunately, there will always be Christians who feel that in order for one's faith to remain strong, being a Christian must be explained in a way that leaves no questions unanswered. The greatest moment of liberation a Christian can experience is acknowledging to himself that there will always be unanswered questions until Jesus returns. Even Paul said that we see through a glass darkly. Paul admitted himself that he didn't have an answer for everything. That epiphany is what makes us humble and able to explore the natural world even when contradictions to our faith may appear.
Atheists don't require science to continue to be Atheists and believers should not require reconciling science to the Bible to remain strong in their faith.
Therefore, science contributes to the world, and it is said that Christians are not of this world in the first place.
When Fundamenalist Christians ties their religion to the material world, they are contradicting Jesus's exhortation to render unto Caesar that which is his.
I am sure God never intended it to be that way.
_____________________________
I find it odd that ID proponents call evolution materialistic and then take the materialistic approach to finding the ID or Creator.
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RE: Science only contributes atheism? - 10/12/2008 6:55:39 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Aristocrat
I think that conversion to Christianity requires a leap of faith. You must accept all the doctrine that Christianity professes, without question.
Unfortunately, there will always be Christians who feel that in order for one's faith to remain strong, being a Christian must be explained in a way that leaves no questions unanswered. The greatest moment of liberation a Christian can experience is acknowledging to himself that there will always be unanswered questions until Jesus returns. Even Paul said that we see through a glass darkly. Paul admitted himself that he didn't have an answer for everything. That epiphany is what makes us humble and able to explore the natural world even when contradictions to our faith may appear.
Atheists don't require science to continue to be Atheists and believers should not require reconciling science to the Bible to remain strong in their faith.
Therefore, science contributes to the world, and it is said that Christians are not of this world in the first place.
When Fundamenalist Christians ties their religion to the material world, they are contradicting Jesus's exhortation to render unto Caesar that which is his.
I am sure God never intended it to be that way.
I disagree on a couple points. I don't think that you have to accept all the doctrine that Christianity professes without question. Inquisitiveness is not something that shows a weakness in one's faith. Primarily because there is no list of doctrines that must be accepted in order to be a strong Christian. So what doctrines am I to take without question? Yes you must have faith because nobody is going to ever see God this side of Heaven, but I don't think that there is any other system of belief that is quite as intellectually satisfying as Christianity. It's holy text is demonstrably divine in origin, and its followers find the God they follow when they seek Him.
And if there is a contradiction between the physical world and the biblical explanation of that physical world, then the Bible is in error, and Christianity is false and we who follow it are to be pitied. Also, I don't think that whole Caesar thing is a problem for a Christian trying to engage in the sciences.
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RE: Science only contributes atheism? - 10/12/2008 7:45:50 PM
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Aristocrat
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
I disagree on a couple points. Clearly.
quote:
I don't think that you have to accept all the doctrine that Christianity professes without question.
When you convert to Christianity, it is purely on faith. The average new convert doesn't know enough about Christianity to ask questions and upon professing to be a Christian accept its doctrine. Have you ever heard of a Christian converting with reservations to explore further to see if it holds all the answers one seeks? I know I never have. You are either in it or you are not.
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Inquisitiveness is not something that shows a weakness in one's faith.
I agree. Inquisitiveness is human nature in any area of one's life. It only demonstrates that you are a thinking human being.
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Primarily because there is no list of doctrines that must be accepted in order to be a strong Christian. I don't think many Christians here would agree with that. What I was saying is that if anything in the Bible comes under question, there are Christians who will defend the Bible because their faith is based on what the Bible says word for word, unwaveringly.
quote:
It's holy text is demonstrably divine in origin, and its followers find the God they follow when they seek Him. While I agree the Holy Spirit that is shown by the contents of the Bible witnesses to the Holy Spirit in me, it is not holy text. Only God is divine. Text in any book can have errors.
quote:
And if there is a contradiction between the physical world and the biblical explanation of that physical world, then the Bible is in error, Not at all and you make my point. If there is a contradiction it means that no one has the answer except God. It cannot be a contradiction unless the truth is not known yet. If you choose to accept one side over the other, there is no contradiction "in your mind". By the same token, if you have never read the Bible, once again, there is no contradiction. As a Christian, I find no contradiction between science and Christianity. However, I might be able to find bible verses that contradict any secular endeavor. I can create contradictions if I use the Bible literally and not allow the Bible to edify me spiritually.
quote:
Also, I don't think that whole Caesar thing is a problem for a Christian trying to engage in the sciences.
Only to some christians as I said before. I hope I've explained myself better.
_____________________________
I find it odd that ID proponents call evolution materialistic and then take the materialistic approach to finding the ID or Creator.
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RE: Science only contributes atheism? - 10/13/2008 3:10:56 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Aristocrat
Only to some christians as I said before. I hope I've explained myself better.
Yes, I think you have. I'm not arguing for the sake of being disagreeable, and our moderator is going to assign me penance if I continue discussing this matter. Suffice it to say there is no list of Christian doctrines. If you trust Christ to forgive your sins, He will and He has, and He will make you into His image. That being said, a committed student of God's word will continue to seek the truth, but I don't think that God's church is composed of ONLY committed students of the Bible.
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RE: Science only contributes atheism? - 10/13/2008 11:15:22 PM
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Aristocrat
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
quote:
ORIGINAL: Aristocrat
Only to some christians as I said before. I hope I've explained myself better.
Yes, I think you have. I'm not arguing for the sake of being disagreeable, and our moderator is going to assign me penance if I continue discussing this matter. Suffice it to say there is no list of Christian doctrines. If you trust Christ to forgive your sins, He will and He has, and He will make you into His image. That being said, a committed student of God's word will continue to seek the truth, but I don't think that God's church is composed of ONLY committed students of the Bible.
My point was very germane to the topic of this thread. It is not about salvation, that is another subject altogether.
Actually, maybe I wasn't that clear.
Thanks.
_____________________________
I find it odd that ID proponents call evolution materialistic and then take the materialistic approach to finding the ID or Creator.
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RE: Science only contributes atheism? - 10/14/2008 3:21:45 AM
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abraxas
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I haven't read the editorial the letter is responding to, but if Cobb and Coyne are accurate when they write, "You suggest that science may bring about 'advances in theological thinking'" then I suppose I agree with the editorial.
That said there are some big differences between how science contributes to religion and how it contributes to, um, well to science. I'm going to take my funnel idea to another thread. (DanJames I hope you don't mind if I pull your reply along with it.)
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RE: Science only contributes atheism? - 10/14/2008 4:49:09 PM
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Dan94
Posts: 51
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From: Upstate New York
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One day, in the not too distant past, Satan was sitting down with His demons. They were in debate on how to get man to doubt God and increase atheism, even more then before. I know, I know shouted one excited demon. "Yes go ahead" said Satan, "lets hear it."
The demon began, "you know how man is running to and fro in search of knowledge and wisdom? Well lets use what their eye's can see against what God has said." He went on "They have found science that has helped them find remedy for diseases, sickness, and food shortages. They have applied science to travel faster and communicate to each other and warn each other about disasters. Soon they'll be able to figure out how to get to the moon and see what God has created and be amazed by His revealed glory and that it is good". Satan was getting very angry with this demon, for saying such a thing and was getting ready to do Him in. "GET TO THE POINT!" He shouted with anger.
Lets introduce a theory called evolution and teach it as fact, they'll think that God has lied to them or left something out that is vitally important to their faith. They will doubt God and pat themselves on the back in pride for being so smart..even some of His followers will buy into it. Man by nature must try to explain some things that can not be explained, remember that tree of knowledge episode You pulled on that woman...pure genius and we can get it to work again".
"How so"? asked Satan with glee at being called a genius. He went on.."You know how God created everything with the appearance of age and the science of age"? They will invent a method to date rocks that have the science of 100 billion or more years built into them. That and with some weird looking animals that God gave the ability to adapt to their environment without the aid of man, will get them to question where did all of this come from"? That and a few other things that they will be proud of, so proud that they'll teach their children to question God. Then they will even insult God's chosen people when they defend a faith that needs no science to prove. We can make God's elect look so foolish that a thinking man who wants everything explained will want nothing to do with them or God". "That's brilliant"! shouted Satan..."I'm glad I thought of it"
With that the meeting broke up and the demons went out to do Satan's bidding...Oh wait..there are no scientifically proven demon's or Satan for that matter. The world that is all messed up with violence, hate, adultery, murder, child abuse and so on and so on, must be just a cause of the evolution of man's mind....created by his own choice and Satan's influence, with no God in control. Now that's an evolution theory I can believe in. All will be explained in due season. The wisdom of Man is foolishness unto God.
If man evolved from Monkey's...how come there are still Monkey's? The ones carrying the evolution gene must have missed the boat.
Please forgive my punctuation errors, an English major is no gift of mine.
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RE: Science only contributes atheism? - 10/14/2008 5:28:49 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dan94
If man evolved from Monkey's...how come there are still Monkey's? The ones carrying the evolution gene must have missed the boat.
Hey, Dan. Again, we're glad to have you on the forum.
Nice story, but please don't use this argument. There would still be monkeys if evolution were true for the same reason that there are still wolves when we have domestic dogs. Not all populations change because not all populations have selective pressures that cause a noticeable change.
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RE: Science only contributes atheism? - 10/14/2008 8:02:48 PM
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EcclesFruitcake
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Joined: 1/15/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dan94
One day, in the not too distant past...
I enjoyed reading this but one has to ask; what were you doing at the meeting? 
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RE: Science only contributes atheism? - 10/14/2008 8:07:42 PM
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Dan94
Posts: 51
Joined: 9/25/2008
From: Upstate New York
Status: offline
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DanJames,
I always thought it was because the smart wolves ran away when they saw a collar around one of their captured buddies that man tamed. But your right, it was just a phrase I saw somewhere that I thought humorous.
That's a nice picture you use as an icon, is that you before coffee?
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RE: Science only contributes atheism? - 10/14/2008 8:32:18 PM
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Dan94
Posts: 51
Joined: 9/25/2008
From: Upstate New York
Status: offline
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Good one EcclesFruitcake! But I was in a disguise, I was wearing a Darwin mask...they thought I was one of them
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RE: Science only contributes atheism? - 10/16/2008 1:28:43 PM
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DanJames
Posts: 677
Joined: 12/13/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dan94
DanJames,
I always thought it was because the smart wolves ran away when they saw a collar around one of their captured buddies that man tamed. But your right, it was just a phrase I saw somewhere that I thought humorous.
That's a nice picture you use as an icon, is that you before coffee?
Actually it was one of the stock photos. After some investigation, I pinned down its origin to a costume website. But you are correct, that is me before I've had my daily caffeine drink.
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