Why I Fear McCain

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Evangel70 -> Why I Fear McCain (8/26/2008 5:47:49 PM)
In the interest of fairness, I'd like to ask Obama supporters/leaners why they would not vote for McCain. As with the Obama thread, please use McCain's own statements not those attributed to him by others. For example, McCain has stated that he would only nominate conservative judges along the line of Alito and Roberts so if you believe the SC should be non-partisan, this may be a reason to fear McCain. If you believe President Bush's tax cuts benefiting the top 1% of the country are a bad thing, you may fear that McCain will extend those tax cuts because he has stated so. If you believe that McCain agreeing with President Bush's policies over 95% of the time is an indication of a third Bush term, this may be a legitimate reason to fear a McCain administration.

tafkam -> RE: Why I Fear McCain (8/26/2008 5:53:11 PM)
I'm a McCain supporter, but I have concerns as well. 1) He will not do anything of substance regarding illegal immigration. 2) His co-authoring of McCain-Feingold, which effectively seeks to neuter free speech in the last days running up to an election. 3) He is a Washington long timer, which means we will see much more business as usual and very little in the way of visible change or restructuring.

Evangel70 -> RE: Why I Fear McCain (8/26/2008 6:04:59 PM)
Reasons I fear a McCain administration: 1. Age - If elected McCain will be 72 when taking office. As the leader of the free world, one should be sharp, alert, and able to anticipate potential problems/issues. McCain's gaffes over who's fighting whom in Iraq, and how to pronounce other world leaders names may be amusing while he's campaigning but could be embarrassing as President. We can't have McCain singing "Bomb, bomb Iran" in the middle east. 2. McCain has served this country honorably and his service to our country should be regarded highly. However, McCain uses his POW status as his main qualification for the presidency. Sorry, but being a war hero doesn't make one a good president. 3. McCain will only serve one term with a democratic majority in congress thus his would be a "lame duck" Presidency from the beginning. 4. McCain has mocked the Christian faith by flippantly comparing Obama to Moses. McCain had memorized the right-wing talking points making it difficult to know what he really believes. 5. McCain's policies will benefit big corporations at the expense of middle class tax payers. 6. McCain's tax credit for health insurance will encourage employers to drop coverage for their employees thus leaving millions without coverage as a $5000 tax credit (at the end of the tax year) will not cover the average insurance cost of $18,000 a year.

huskarine -> RE: Why I Fear McCain (8/26/2008 7:59:52 PM)
1. Because i ran out of fear of Obama, so i had to pick out the next one i could think of???? where's Ralph Nader when you need him???

huangshan -> RE: Why I Fear McCain (8/26/2008 9:55:48 PM)
I fear that he's going to get us all killed. I fear that he is one of the most remarkably under-qualified men for the job, ever, and I fear that he's little more than a hotheaded and vulgar GWB with a more heroic personal history that has gotten him far more access and far less criticism than is warranted.

huangshan -> RE: Why I Fear McCain (8/26/2008 9:58:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Evangel70 3. McCain will only serve one term with a democratic majority in congress thus his would be a "lame duck" Presidency from the beginning. Domestic policy-wise, I think that is correct. Foreign policy-wise, he is far less restrained, and that is where he will almost certainly do the most damage.

huskarine -> RE: Why I Fear McCain (8/27/2008 7:28:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: huangshan quote: ORIGINAL: Evangel70 3. McCain will only serve one term with a democratic majority in congress thus his would be a "lame duck" Presidency from the beginning. Domestic policy-wise, I think that is correct. Foreign policy-wise, he is far less restrained, and that is where he will almost certainly do the most damage. which is honestly why we should be more concerned about state government...

ljmac -> RE: Why I Fear McCain (8/27/2008 6:33:54 PM)
Working with a congress of the opposite party has little to do with being a lame duck. Just look at GWB. The liberals in Congerss have been totally powerless to change the war. GWB is in charge and they can't do a thing about it except grind their teeth as our successes mount. Clinton had his best years when Republicans became majority, aside of course from his little problem of trying to force an employee to have sex with him and having the coverup lead to his impeachment. Before Republicans were in charge his health care program went up in flames, his budgets never even forecast a surplus during his presidency and his homosexuals-in-foxholes program went down the tubes. He also got much credit for modernizing welfare, something that never would have happened han liberals run the show. McCain will never be the weakling some fantasize about. He's far too strong willed.

blessedinnyc -> RE: Why I Fear McCain (8/27/2008 7:03:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ljmac Working with a congress of the opposite party has little to do with being a lame duck. Just look at GWB. The liberals in Congerss have been totally powerless to change the war. GWB is in charge and they can't do a thing about it except grind their teeth as our successes mount. Clinton had his best years when Republicans became majority, aside of course from his little problem of trying to force an employee to have sex with him and having the coverup lead to his impeachment. Before Republicans were in charge his health care program went up in flames, his budgets never even forecast a surplus during his presidency and his homosexuals-in-foxholes program went down the tubes. He also got much credit for modernizing welfare, something that never would have happened han liberals run the show. McCain will never be the weakling some fantasize about. He's far too strong willed. I don't have dreams of McCain being a weakling. I have nightmares about him being the real-life Greg Stillson.

colliefan -> RE: Why I Fear McCain (8/27/2008 8:50:12 PM)
quote: 5. McCain's policies will benefit big corporations at the expense of middle class tax payers. And these big corporations don't employ thousands of middle class tax payers? And these big corporations dividends don't pay into the pensions of thousands of retired individuals? Oh, yes, those evil companies that dare make a profit? Sounds like a typical socialist product of our public education system!

blessedinnyc -> RE: Why I Fear McCain (8/27/2008 10:26:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colliefan quote: 5. McCain's policies will benefit big corporations at the expense of middle class tax payers. And these big corporations don't employ thousands of middle class tax payers? And these big corporations dividends don't pay into the pensions of thousands of retired individuals? Oh, yes, those evil companies that dare make a profit? Sounds like a typical socialist product of our public education system! I don't think there's anything wrong with being opposed to big, hulking institutions that are seen as inefficient and only benefit a select minority. Some people may perceive the federal government that way, but others may also perceive large corporations the same. I don't, but I still respect the view. Corporations are valuable- Exxon Mobil, which many people love to hate, meets ~17-18% of the US's oil needs. Without Exxon's production, oil prices would still be above $150. At the same time, though, corporate welfare doesn't really help anyone except lobbyists and high-ranking executives. Out of all things, it certainly doesn't provide for the efficient allocation of capital- one of the core tenets- and the principal advantage- of capitalism.

huangshan -> RE: Why I Fear McCain (8/27/2008 10:27:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: colliefan quote: 5. McCain's policies will benefit big corporations at the expense of middle class tax payers. And these big corporations don't employ thousands of middle class tax payers? And these big corporations dividends don't pay into the pensions of thousands of retired individuals? Oh, yes, those evil companies that dare make a profit? Sounds like a typical socialist product of our public education system! It's plausible that a policy could benefit big corporations to the benefit of middle class taxpayers. It's also plausible that a policy could benefit big corporations to the expense of middle-class taxpayers. Are you making the assumption that everything that is good for corporations is good for taxpayers? Because that's false.

ljmac -> RE: Why I Fear McCain (8/28/2008 12:02:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc quote: ORIGINAL: ljmac Working with a congress of the opposite party has little to do with being a lame duck. Just look at GWB. The liberals in Congerss have been totally powerless to change the war. GWB is in charge and they can't do a thing about it except grind their teeth as our successes mount. Clinton had his best years when Republicans became majority, aside of course from his little problem of trying to force an employee to have sex with him and having the coverup lead to his impeachment. Before Republicans were in charge his health care program went up in flames, his budgets never even forecast a surplus during his presidency and his homosexuals-in-foxholes program went down the tubes. He also got much credit for modernizing welfare, something that never would have happened han liberals run the show. McCain will never be the weakling some fantasize about. He's far too strong willed. I don't have dreams of McCain being a weakling. I have nightmares about him being the real-life Greg Stillson. Have you seen your counselor about this?

dinomax55 -> RE: Why I Fear McCain (8/28/2008 1:06:04 AM)
1) I believe that the next president should show more restraint in foreign affairs. Our current president has made too many mistakes in this area for us to simply allow another 'shoot from the hip' style of leader in the White House (I, like a lot of people, drank the Kool-Aid with regards to this 8 years ago). We desperately need more nuance in our leadership to help repair our image around the world, and all I'm hearing from McCain is more saber- rattling. Not only that, but he has mentioned supporting re-instating the draft. Why? 2) As for the economy, in the shape that it's in, I think it's important to have someone who has at least acknowledged the need for bi-partisan initiatives regarding economic measures and health care. We need solutions, not more filibustering and bickering. Plus, I think we've had enough of tax cuts for the elite in our society- The whole 'trickle- down economics' idea of the past few years hasn't worked out. Why should CEOs only be the ones to benefit from tax breaks? 3) I want to see someone fresh at the top- not someone who has been part of the system for so long. I'm a little jaded with 'incumbancy' (which is why I voted for Bush in the 1st place,)- We need to get people in there who don't have deep roots in Washington, where they haven't been corrupted by the special interests/ lobbies and by the sheer desire for power like Dick Cheney (I know this sounds idealistic, but honestly, at this point, what else do we have besides ideals?) 4) I've noticed that McCain's campaign seems to be all about discrediting Obama. Now I don't know about any of you, but if I were running a campaign with any confidence at all, I would make a point of focusing on what I am bringing to the table rather than what my opponent is or isn't doing. It seems that the only argument the McCain camp can come up with is the ad hominum tactic, which is strictly to attack your opponent's character, not his argument. Seriously, is that the best the RNC can come up with? A lot of their ads insult voters' intelligence, and seem to be merely a diversion (like the Paris/ Britney ads). I am increasingly disappointed with McCain and the RNC.

blessedinnyc -> RE: Why I Fear McCain (8/28/2008 9:25:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ljmac quote: ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc quote: ORIGINAL: ljmac Working with a congress of the opposite party has little to do with being a lame duck. Just look at GWB. The liberals in Congerss have been totally powerless to change the war. GWB is in charge and they can't do a thing about it except grind their teeth as our successes mount. Clinton had his best years when Republicans became majority, aside of course from his little problem of trying to force an employee to have sex with him and having the coverup lead to his impeachment. Before Republicans were in charge his health care program went up in flames, his budgets never even forecast a surplus during his presidency and his homosexuals-in-foxholes program went down the tubes. He also got much credit for modernizing welfare, something that never would have happened han liberals run the show. McCain will never be the weakling some fantasize about. He's far too strong willed. I don't have dreams of McCain being a weakling. I have nightmares about him being the real-life Greg Stillson. Have you seen your counselor about this? No, just Miss Cleo. She says I should be much more worried about Carol Moseley-Braun.

RichLP -> RE: Why I Fear McCain (8/28/2008 9:36:04 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ljmac Working with a congress of the opposite party has little to do with being a lame duck. Just look at GWB. The liberals in Congerss have been totally powerless to change the war. GWB is in charge and they can't do a thing about it except grind their teeth as our successes mount. Clinton had his best years when Republicans became majority, aside of course from his little problem of trying to force an employee to have sex with him and having the coverup lead to his impeachment. Before Republicans were in charge his health care program went up in flames, his budgets never even forecast a surplus during his presidency and his homosexuals-in-foxholes program went down the tubes. He also got much credit for modernizing welfare, something that never would have happened han liberals run the show. McCain will never be the weakling some fantasize about. He's far too strong willed. Bush is in charge - and yet that's why Iraqis are demanding that we get out. So much for "staying the course," and so much for McCain saying that leaving would be equal to defeat. McCain too strong willed? Yes, he's stubborn, and he's also terribly ignorant of the Middle East... and he's also very hawkish. Put him in office and we're likely to see an escalation of hostilities. Furthermore, if you talk about anything mounting, what has been mounting are Iraqi deaths and refugees, not to mention the thousands of injured and wounded US troops, and the mounting bill of this war. Our successes? Really? In Iraq? Surely you jest. Because whatever anyone says the surge accomplished was accomplished largely due to the ethnic cleansing in Baghdad. The one thing we succeeded in Iraq with was making Iran the paramount power in the region, and if you consider THAT a success for the interests of our country, I don't know what to say.

RichLP -> RE: Why I Fear McCain (8/28/2008 9:37:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: huangshan Foreign policy-wise, he is far less restrained, and that is where he will almost certainly do the most damage. I could not agree more. I don't support McCain for a number of reasons (his appalling ignorance of the Middle East is one reason), and one of them is that he is VERY hawkish. We are already fighting two wars, and when senior US military officers say we don't need a 3rd, I think we should listen.

blessedinnyc -> RE: Why I Fear McCain (8/28/2008 9:49:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RichLP Bush is in charge - and yet that's why Iraqis are demanding that we get out. So much for "staying the course," and so much for McCain saying that leaving would be equal to defeat. McCain too strong willed? Yes, he's stubborn, and he's also terribly ignorant of the Middle East... and he's also very hawkish. Put him in office and we're likely to see an escalation of hostilities. Furthermore, if you talk about anything mounting, what has been mounting are Iraqi deaths and refugees, not to mention the thousands of injured and wounded US troops, and the mounting bill of this war. Our successes? Really? In Iraq? Surely you jest. Because whatever anyone says the surge accomplished was accomplished largely due to the ethnic cleansing in Baghdad. The one thing we succeeded in Iraq with was making Iran the paramount power in the region, and if you consider THAT a success for the interests of our country, I don't know what to say. Hang on here, Rich. I'll agree that the first three years in Iraq were a total disaster, but I would also say that the past two years have been a small miracle- one that doesn't make up for the first three, but also one that this liberal has been somewhat shocked by, at the very least. I think that we've learned our lesson about invading other countries and trying to maintain order afterwards, but I also think the past two years have accomplished something that has never been done before- bringing order out of chaos in a middle-eastern country. Apparently, if you have $1 Trillion to spend, you can do something that the Brits, Ottomans, and Persians all failed at- and apparently defy the laws of social gravity. I am concerned that McCain will repeat Bush's mistakes- or more frighteningly- start a direct confrontation with Russia- but we can't downplay the fact that for the first time since the Peace of Westphalia, two groups are realizing that they might be better off trying to peacefully coexist rather than fight with each other.

kernsfamily -> RE: Why I Fear McCain (8/28/2008 10:07:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Evangel70 In the interest of fairness, I'd like to ask Obama supporters/leaners why they would not vote for McCain. As with the Obama thread, please use McCain's own statements not those attributed to him by others. For example, McCain has stated that he would only nominate conservative judges along the line of Alito and Roberts so if you believe the SC should be non-partisan, this may be a reason to fear McCain. If you believe President Bush's tax cuts benefiting the top 1% of the country are a bad thing, you may fear that McCain will extend those tax cuts because he has stated so. If you believe that McCain agreeing with President Bush's policies over 95% of the time is an indication of a third Bush term, this may be a legitimate reason to fear a McCain administration. McCain does not want judges that will "legislate" from the bench. And, will only "strictly interpret" the constitution, as their job supposedly requires them to do. Bush's tax cuts benefited ALL....yes, the top 1% got tax cuts...but, so did EVERYONE ELSE.....there's nothing to fear with tax cuts....being able to keep more of YOUR hard earned money is NOTHING to fear. Obama has clearly stated he will be after YOUR wallet if he's elected....in some big "re-distribution" of wealth scheme....THAT is something to fear. I doubt McCain has agreed with Bush 95% of the time. quote: Corporations are valuable- Exxon Mobil, which many people love to hate, meets ~17-18% of the US's oil needs. So, corporations don't do anything for "middle class americans"???? I live right around the corner from ExxonMobil headquarters. Many of my neighbors work there. They have VERY good jobs. They are supporting their families, and many are "one income" households (moms able to stay at home with kids...just as my wife does, and all of our kids are in school all day).....those EVIL and GREEDY corporations....how dare they do that! quote: 2) As for the economy, in the shape that it's in, We just went through 6+ years of economic growth....the cycle of growth ended ......just like it ALWAYS does....the problem with it this time, is that the libs ignored the economy when it was going really well....(certainly don't want to acknowledge that something was going right! how dare they!)....but, the moment things started going downhill a bit, OH MY, the sky was falling!....and, now the economy is the most talked about thing!......(because it's election year politics)..... don't get me started on this "off shoring of jobs" thing....what an OVER BLOWN and exagerrated issue that is! ARTICLE As for McCain....not a big supporter...but, Obama.....absolutely not. [edited by moderator to format link]

kernsfamily -> RE: Why I Fear McCain (8/28/2008 10:09:36 AM)
quote: I am concerned that McCain will repeat Bush's mistakes- or more frighteningly- start a direct confrontation with Russia- yeah...it's certainly better to have a President that won't do ANYTHING to anyone.....(and just leave it for the next president to take care of)

blessedinnyc -> RE: Why I Fear McCain (8/28/2008 10:33:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kernsfamily So, corporations don't do anything for "middle class americans"???? I live right around the corner from ExxonMobil headquarters. Many of my neighbors work there. They have VERY good jobs. They are supporting their families, and many are "one income" households (moms able to stay at home with kids...just as my wife does, and all of our kids are in school all day).....those EVIL and GREEDY corporations....how dare they do that! I don't think you read the next sentence as carefully as I had hoped people would read: quote: Corporations are valuable- Exxon Mobil, which many people love to hate, meets ~17-18% of the US's oil needs. Without Exxon's production, oil prices would still be above $150. I don't have anything against corporations. I have something against people calling folks communists because they are against inefficient allocations of capital via government subsidies. That doesn't make them a communist; it makes them a libertarian. quote: don't get me started on this "off shoring of jobs" thing....what an OVER BLOWN and exagerrated issue that is! It depends on whether you have a mercantilist or free-trade perspective. If everyone plays fair, free trade helps us benefit from comparative advantage. However, if one country plays games with its currency to generate a trade surplus, we are no longer dealing with free-trade; we are dealing with mercantilism. The Bush administration has sat on its hands while a certain major trade parter has played currency games with the rest of the world. We should have gotten together with the EU and decided to put a 25% tariff on Chinese goods until they let their currency float, regardless of GATT and the WTO.

blessedinnyc -> RE: Why I Fear McCain (8/28/2008 10:35:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kernsfamily quote: I am concerned that McCain will repeat Bush's mistakes- or more frighteningly- start a direct confrontation with Russia- yeah...it's certainly better to have a President that won't do ANYTHING to anyone.....(and just leave it for the next president to take care of) The only thing worse than not being willing to do anything to anyone is being unable to do anything to anyone- the way the US has been since we invaded Iraq. As TR said, "Speak softly; carry a big stick."

RichLP -> RE: Why I Fear McCain (8/28/2008 10:51:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc Hang on here, Rich. I'll agree that the first three years in Iraq were a total disaster, but I would also say that the past two years have been a small miracle- one that doesn't make up for the first three, but also one that this liberal has been somewhat shocked by, at the very least. I think that we've learned our lesson about invading other countries and trying to maintain order afterwards, but I also think the past two years have accomplished something that has never been done before- bringing order out of chaos in a middle-eastern country. Apparently, if you have $1 Trillion to spend, you can do something that the Brits, Ottomans, and Persians all failed at- and apparently defy the laws of social gravity. I am concerned that McCain will repeat Bush's mistakes- or more frighteningly- start a direct confrontation with Russia- but we can't downplay the fact that for the first time since the Peace of Westphalia, two groups are realizing that they might be better off trying to peacefully coexist rather than fight with each other. Blessedinnyc, I will not deny that thanks to some changes in policy, there have been improvements, but one reason that there have been improvements is that some Iraqis got sick of foreign fighters and united to fight them. In addition, I cannot share your assertion that there has been a small miracle in Iraq when so very many Iraqis still lack access to clean drinking water and electricity. These are commodities that people even in 3rd world countries (I know - I was born in one) take for granted. MANY Iraqis don't even have that. The British and the Ottomans were bled in their efforts to pacify this region. But I don't think we can congratulate ourselves for reducing a chaos which wasn't there and which we ourselves instigated by invading that country. McCain, as I have written, is very hawkish, and given we are already involved in two wars, I hardly see how a third - whether with Iran (which would impact our standing in the Middle East and almost guarantee blowback against us in Iraq), with North Korea (which would be very messy none the less given the Korean People's Army can unleash dozens of thousands of chemical weapon-tipped artillery ordnance on the South Korean capital of Seoul in minutes), or heavens forbid, with Russia - will be in the best interests of our country. Let's not mention our stretched and strained military, whose leaders have spoken out that a 3rd war is not what we need right now.

huskarine -> RE: Why I Fear McCain (8/28/2008 11:04:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RichLP quote: ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc Hang on here, Rich. I'll agree that the first three years in Iraq were a total disaster, but I would also say that the past two years have been a small miracle- one that doesn't make up for the first three, but also one that this liberal has been somewhat shocked by, at the very least. I think that we've learned our lesson about invading other countries and trying to maintain order afterwards, but I also think the past two years have accomplished something that has never been done before- bringing order out of chaos in a middle-eastern country. Apparently, if you have $1 Trillion to spend, you can do something that the Brits, Ottomans, and Persians all failed at- and apparently defy the laws of social gravity. I am concerned that McCain will repeat Bush's mistakes- or more frighteningly- start a direct confrontation with Russia- but we can't downplay the fact that for the first time since the Peace of Westphalia, two groups are realizing that they might be better off trying to peacefully coexist rather than fight with each other. Blessedinnyc, I will not deny that thanks to some changes in policy, there have been improvements, but one reason that there have been improvements is that some Iraqis got sick of foreign fighters and united to fight them. In addition, I cannot share your assertion that there has been a small miracle in Iraq when so very many Iraqis still lack access to clean drinking water and electricity. These are commodities that people even in 3rd world countries (I know - I was born in one) take for granted. MANY Iraqis don't even have that. The British and the Ottomans were bled in their efforts to pacify this region. But I don't think we can congratulate ourselves for reducing a chaos which wasn't there and which we ourselves instigated by invading that country. McCain, as I have written, is very hawkish, and given we are already involved in two wars, I hardly see how a third - whether with Iran (which would impact our standing in the Middle East and almost guarantee blowback against us in Iraq), with North Korea (which would be very messy none the less given the Korean People's Army can unleash dozens of thousands of chemical weapon-tipped artillery ordnance on the South Korean capital of Seoul in minutes), or heavens forbid, with Russia - will be in the best interests of our country. Let's not mention our stretched and strained military, whose leaders have spoken out that a 3rd war is not what we need right now. ok, richlp, what is your definition of victory in OIF??? (since we are there you know...)

RichLP -> RE: Why I Fear McCain (8/28/2008 11:32:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: huskarine ok, richlp, what is your definition of victory in OIF??? (since we are there you know...) You tell me. Because the Bush administration is yet to make that clear.

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