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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 1:07:54 PM
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landabee
Posts: 2867
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Central Florida
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quote:
It's not about how many kids you have or don't have....it's not about whether you are married or not...it's not about anything physical. This thread is about a heart condition...one that makes you think that you have "the right" to public assistance simply because you exist....and those posting here all agree that "just existing" isn't good enough of a reason. No one here has a problem with a humbled heart needing to lean on others for a time...but that is a humbled heart, not a heart that feels it is owed to them. It's not about the physical....it's all about the heart. Some also feel that it would be the prudent thing that those on assistance not have any more kids while they are struggling.....however, I go back to this...it's all about the heart. I personally do not feel it right that someone would purposely chooses to have a child while on assistance....PURPOSELY is the key....and that is exactly what all of these other ladies are saying also. So it seems my having five kids and being married doesn't exactly negate their not being married or having any kids. We simply don't like abuse of the system...and to us, that falls under abuse.
Sarah, good post.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 1:22:48 PM
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Sideways
Posts: 3628
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Sarah, did you mean to quote Stella's post, two posts before mine, about permanent sterilization?
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 1:34:39 PM
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LaurainAL
Posts: 1295
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Just curious--would any of you support legislation that would mandate that people on food stamps use birth control? Why or why not?
No way. Although I think couples should think responsibly about family planning, I don't ever think the government should have a say in it. Never.
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Life Trumps Choice
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 1:38:00 PM
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Kath
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Memrie88
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 1:50:14 PM
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Mrs.X
Posts: 2939
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: Newberg, OR
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OK, so I know she's not around anymore, but I have to repond to this.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Memrie88
Spitzu;
Do you have a Bible scripture to your statement? The one "Age and experience does not a wise person make" ???
I'd really like to see that.
I agree with Crystal. Solomon was a really wise man, but as he got older he lost the wisdom to do the right things. That's not really a scrpture, but his life story proves it happens that age doesn't equal wisdom.
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-Stina
From Sweet Grass to the Packin' House
A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. -Proverbs 15:1
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 1:52:03 PM
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Memaw.
Posts: 2453
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Sunflower State
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quote:
Certainly I believe in conditions for welfare, though. Any adult receiving must prove that they are looking for work, educating themselves for a better job or completely unable to do any kind of work. I also believe in a time limit for receiving welfare, even for those who've met the above conditions.
This is my stance on it as well.
I will qualify it by saying I do know there are people who can not work and for those people I believe it is our responsibility to help and I do it with a eager heart.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 1:56:47 PM
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LaurainAL
Posts: 1295
Joined: 8/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: peculiar_lady2
quote:
ORIGINAL: LaurainAL
quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Just curious--would any of you support legislation that would mandate that people on food stamps use birth control? Why or why not?
No way. Although I think couples should think responsibly about family planning, I don't ever think the government should have a say in it. Never.
[puts on devil's advocate hat] but Laura...if they are using government funds to HAVE those kids by and SUPPORT those kids they choose to have, then does the government not get the same kind of consideration we would give an individual put in hat position and don't they get to choose the parameters of their generosity[/takes off devils advocate hat]
As someone else pointed out earlier, how in the world would you enforce it? If the government wants to limit the amount of aid it gives someone because they are abusing the system, a good thing to do would be to stop giving the aid, not force birth control.
I don't think you believe your devil's advocate position anyway.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 2:01:28 PM
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stellaluna
Posts: 4219
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LaurainAL
As someone else pointed out earlier, how in the world would you enforce it? If the government wants to limit the amount of aid it gives someone because they are abusing the system, a good thing to do would be to stop giving the aid, not force birth control.
I definitely agree with this.
In defense of California, the forced sterilization idea wasn't just random. The case I heard of was about a drug addict who had child after child after child--maybe 10 of them?--and each child was born drug addicted and there were several fathers, but no husbands, etc. That was definitely a case of the state saying "your family is too big" but not a case of the state making a broad statement of what a "too big" family is.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 2:05:38 PM
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macokjc
Posts: 256
Joined: 2/24/2008
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quote:
Just curious--would any of you support legislation that would mandate that people on food stamps use birth control? Why or why not?
Because of talk in the county in which we live, I actually asked this same question yesterday and then deleted it - I guess I was too scared. See, the thing is, I don't think that I am completely opposed to it in certain situations, but it would be almost impossible to regulate the situations and keep it from going down a slippery slope into ethics. See, our county is labeled the welfare capital of the state, and the majority are life-long high school drop-outs with easily 8 or 9 kids -no husband. Should we prevent them from having more children - for the children's sake? I don't think we should prevent them from receiving help; because that would harm the children themselves.
The entire system is totally broken, and leads to unfortunately many people taking advantage of it simply because it is there.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 2:23:40 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
Posts: 2550
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From: California
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quote:
I think the real problem (and blame) lies with the church though. The Bible lays out certain lines of what the church was/is to help, but we collectively have failed to follow through with that help, so the government stepped in. When they did that we lost one major thing...morality. The church CAN promote morality...and should....but unfortunately the government can't...at least not the government that we have today.
Exactly..........many many charitable organizations, both public and private, both secular and para church have been started to fulfill a void left by the church, and/or to meet a need or needs not being met by the church.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 2:37:04 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
Posts: 5097
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: The Gorgeous plains of Colorado
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Just curious--would any of you support legislation that would mandate that people on food stamps use birth control? Why or why not?
Sort of a moot point because it's unenforceable. No way to prove another child wasn't conceived despite the BC.
Certainly I believe in conditions for welfare, though. Any adult receiving must prove that they are looking for work, educating themselves for a better job or completely unable to do any kind of work. I also believe in a time limit for receiving welfare, even for those who've met the above conditions.
I agree 100%.
I guess they could technically enforce birth control by making women have something like Implanon, or the Depo shots but I am definitely a small government kinda gal and would not support anything like that.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 3:40:28 PM
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Mrs.X
Posts: 2939
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: Newberg, OR
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Just curious--would any of you support legislation that would mandate that people on food stamps use birth control? Why or why not?
Sort of a moot point because it's unenforceable. No way to prove another child wasn't conceived despite the BC.
Certainly I believe in conditions for welfare, though. Any adult receiving must prove that they are looking for work, educating themselves for a better job or completely unable to do any kind of work. I also believe in a time limit for receiving welfare, even for those who've met the above conditions.
I agree 100%.
I guess they could technically enforce birth control by making women have something like Implanon, or the Depo shots but I am definitely a small government kinda gal and would not support anything like that.
Pass out condoms at the welfare office? Or hand out pamphlets where folks can get free BC. It wouldn't stop the folks who keep on trying to have kids though.
Implanon is what I'll be getting in a couple months to keep us from having more kids while on welfare...I'm not very good at remembering pills or quarterly appointments.
_____________________________
-Stina
From Sweet Grass to the Packin' House
A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. -Proverbs 15:1
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 3:44:31 PM
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spitzu
Posts: 1064
Joined: 4/19/2005
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I also do not believe in forced birth control or in forced sterilization. The only way I can even imagine supporting something like that is if there were some serious criminal activities, but even then... I'm not a fan of big federal government. I think their hands shouldn't be in any of this at all (including welfare, but I digress).
I'm with Sideways here in that there should be conditions and those conditions should be strictly enforced. Too many people cheat and abuse the system, and that just hurts everyone involved.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 4:43:57 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10538
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God
Just curious--would any of you support legislation that would mandate that people on food stamps use birth control? Why or why not?
Nope. I'm not sure one can legislate wisdom. Especially when our government doesn't have too much of it's own... 
However, if there was a fair and just way to do this (and I'm not sure there is), I would not be averse to prosecuting folks for abusing welfare. If only people who genuinely needed it, got it, we could do so much more for the poor and hurting in society.
quote:
ORIGINAL: landabee
Regarding Free Will---- God allows much that may not be His best plan for us. He allows us to make poor choices. He even allows us to forego seeking wisdom. He allows us free will.
Exactly! I'm sure there are many times when someone conceived where God wasn't up in heaven doing a happy dance. Not because they conceived but because they pursued conception for the wrong reasons.
However, once conception takes place, you do the right thing and deal with it and do whatever it takes to be the best mom/dad you can.
I think of it this way - there are many times in my life that I have made poor decisions. I know God was not pleased with those decisions. However, once made, it really doesn't matter how you got there, your next task is to use that situation for good. God can make all things good - even what man intended for evil. That doesn't mean God wants us to commit evil. Not at all! It just means that God is bigger than our biggest mistakes and failures. And that's a good thing! 
--------
And I agree that welfare should have conditions. My grandparents remember when it was started during the Great Depression, it was not a handout. You worked for it! My grandparents recall things like all those on it would gather at one end of town and rake all the leaves to the other end of town. If they got done too soon, they would turn around and rake the leaves back to the other side of town. It may seem silly, but it prevented demoralization and the attitude that I "can't" provide so I have to depend on someone else. You may have been doing something really dumb, but you were doing something!
We have a non-profit agency in my area that is specifically for folks with all kinds of mental & physical disabilities. They have a number of different industries. Some folks with disabilities may get training there and be able to move to outside employment. Others may never be able to work in a "regular" job, but they can work there and do what they can and get paid for it. In addition, they have all kinds of apprenticeship programs where they will send you to work in local businesses (our church has participated in this in the past) and the organization pays for their wages. It's a plus to the businesses (free labor), it's a plus to the workers (they get experience and get paid and are given chances with businesses that maybe wouldn't have hired them outright but when they prove themselves, the businesses can hire them and they "graduate" from the program) and it's a plus to the community because they now have the opportunity to become independant and get back on their feet where society doesn't need to support them. It's a win-win!
The sad thing is seeing folks who fail even at that and it's really no one's fault but their own. How many chances do you give folks before you say you need to take responsibility?
And as far as the kids suffering - that's what makes this issue to difficult. On the other hand, if the parents are bilking welfare (I really wish there was a way to fairly and justly prosecute people like this who in reality are stealing from the poor by abusing the system. I can't think of much that is more wretched than that), I'd have to say that the kids are probably already suffering. 
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 5:20:13 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6929
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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Posting blind (because I don't have the time or the eyesight to read over 20 pages right now).
I think that as long as they aren't relying on me to support them, it's none of my business how many children a couple decides to have or not to have.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 9/9/2008 5:27:43 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4940
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
Status: online
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quote:
As someone else pointed out earlier, how in the world would you enforce it?
Norplant.
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