lawsuits against churches/pastors..? (Full Version)

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ironsharpensiron -> lawsuits against churches/pastors..? (8/25/2008 7:14:41 PM)

As some of you may know and/or remember the state of California's very liberal and bleeding heart court system bypassed a voting measure and announced themselves that homosexuals can marry. Of course this will be on the November ballot, and more than likely will be trounced.

In the case that it isn't overturned there may be some disturbing days ahead for churches/pastors in the form of discrimination suits. Some of us at my workplace were talking about this, and one person mentioned that her pastor stated from the pulpit that he will certainly not marry anyone that isn't man and woman. He is prepared to go to jail if it is necessary.

My question though...Do any of you believe it will get to a point where local churches are being sued for not marrying gay/lesbian couples..? And what, if anything, can the church/pastors do to curtail this before it gets ugly..? Are pastors, even those on these boards, ready, willing, and able to stand up for what is morally and ethically correct..?

I am not looking for a thread on 'homosexuality pro's and con's,' there is already one for that, I would like a discussion on what we can do, as a Christain body, to prepare ourselves.

Looking forward to hearing the responses.

matthew



earthless -> RE: lawsuits against churches/pastors..? (8/25/2008 7:18:01 PM)

The first step to curb that possible issue and many others is for churches/pastors to give up their tax exemption. Give it up. Pay taxes and then not worry about what they can or cannot say from the pulpit.



MrFribbles -> RE: lawsuits against churches/pastors..? (8/25/2008 7:19:04 PM)

I don't think it'll be a problem, as long as the church makes it clear in its policy that it won't marry homosexual couples.
Of course, that doesn't mean people won't try to sue them anyway, but I think, legally, churches can decide who they will or will not marry.



ironsharpensiron -> RE: lawsuits against churches/pastors..? (8/25/2008 7:44:14 PM)

Good thoughts so far.

I'm wondering if churches would start requiring couples to be members of the church before they could be married. Although the world would say the church is even more of an exclusive club than ever before.

Losing the tax exemption...I understand the premise, although I really do not like the idea of a portion of my tithes going to the government, considering I already 'gave at the office.' [8D]

matthew



Memaw. -> RE: lawsuits against churches/pastors..? (8/25/2008 8:03:13 PM)

Most churches have a pre marriage class for the affianced that is required before the pastor will marry them and I'm not real sure that a homosexual or lesbian couple would be willing to attend.[;)]



Ps103 -> RE: lawsuits against churches/pastors..? (8/25/2008 10:46:47 PM)

I'm not sure how it is in other parts of the country, but here pastors routinely refuse to marry couples.

I do not think there is a law that demands a pastor perfom a marriage ceremony or open their church to anyone who asks.

I have known several non-Christians who, for whatever reason, wanted to a have "church weddings" and could not find a church that would do it.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: lawsuits against churches/pastors..? (8/26/2008 12:53:33 AM)

I just mentioned this thread to my husband, and he said he thought that for now, a federal law was passed saying that churches are exempt from having to marry any particular persons. Anyone know anything about that? I hadn't heard about it.

I know that where I attend, they will not marry those who are not members there. The fact is that it is even hard to just get a seat there for three weeks in somewhat of a succession, unless the person is known/interviewed by the leadership.



rcjames -> RE: lawsuits against churches/pastors..? (8/26/2008 12:01:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ps103

I'm not sure how it is in other parts of the country, but here pastors routinely refuse to marry couples.

I do not think there is a law that demands a pastor perfom a marriage ceremony or open their church to anyone who asks.

I have known several non-Christians who, for whatever reason, wanted to a have "church weddings" and could not find a church that would do it.


I refuse to marry a lot more couples than I marry and for a lot of different reasons.

Thanks
RC



edgibson -> RE: lawsuits against churches/pastors..? (8/26/2008 1:09:47 PM)

I think that anyone suing would have a very tough row to hoe.

This is a textbook Constitutional law case. Can the gov. force a church to act outside of it's religious tenants without being in blatant disregard of the first amendment?



mvic -> RE: lawsuits against churches/pastors..? (8/26/2008 1:10:58 PM)

We had/have a similar problem in the UK.

The Government is passing anti-discrimination laws. Nothing wrong with that.

However, the Catholic Church, which runs several adoption agencies, do not allow gay couples to adopt children from their agencies. If they continue with this policy they would be breaking the law. So these adoption agencies may have to close as a result.

Full story here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6293115.stm



bluestone -> RE: lawsuits against churches/pastors..? (8/26/2008 1:12:08 PM)

I am more concerned with churches that will willingly marry gay couples. The numbers are growing.



ddave12000 -> RE: lawsuits against churches/pastors..? (8/26/2008 10:45:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone

I am more concerned with churches that will willingly marry gay couples. The numbers are growing.


It's getting pretty scary. We had to leave our last church because they decided to hire an "openly gay but celibate" pastor. However, upon his arrival one of the first things he announced was that he was "currently celibate" because he hadn't found that special someone...I can only imagine how long it is before that congregation is blessing gay unions or whatever.



ironsharpensiron -> RE: lawsuits against churches/pastors..? (8/27/2008 6:14:20 PM)

quote:

I think that anyone suing would have a very tough row to hoe.

This is a textbook Constitutional law case. Can the gov. force a church to act outside of it's religious tenants without being in blatant disregard of the first amendment?


This is a good point, although I recall the issue with the boy scouts a few years back~~actually, I think issues concerning gay leaders is still going on with that org. I do realize, of course, that the boy scouts are nowhere near the same as Christian churches, but you know what I am aluding to.
If it could happen to them, then it could very well happen to real churches.

It only takes one 'couple' to start the spark. There are lots of vindictive people out there that might try just to gain noteriety or the like. I feel we have some interesting times ahead.

matthew



ironsharpensiron -> RE: lawsuits against churches/pastors..? (8/27/2008 6:18:06 PM)

quote:

However, the Catholic Church, which runs several adoption agencies, do not allow gay couples to adopt children from their agencies. If they continue with this policy they would be breaking the law. So these adoption agencies may have to close as a result.


Yes, I have heard of issues like this before, even here in the U.S. Many faith-based orgs. are dragged into the courtsystem by people being 'offended' because they feel discriminated against. Which really isn't the case.

matthew



ironsharpensiron -> RE: lawsuits against churches/pastors..? (8/27/2008 6:19:08 PM)

quote:

I am more concerned with churches that will willingly marry gay couples. The numbers are growing.


So true!!

matthew



ironsharpensiron -> RE: lawsuits against churches/pastors..? (8/27/2008 6:29:37 PM)

quote:

I just mentioned this thread to my husband, and he said he thought that for now, a federal law was passed saying that churches are exempt from having to marry any particular persons. Anyone know anything about that? I hadn't heard about it.


Not sure, although I believe it could be true enough. Part of the ole' seperation of church and state business perhaps.

Let's say, for the sake of discussion, the laws changed, as a direct result of States beginning to allows those 'couples' to marry, and churches were 'asked' to perfom those ceremonies. Under the penalty of losing thier tax-exemption or other rights they were told they pretty much had to because it was discriminatory if they didn't; would you stand behind your pastor's..? Would you pastor's break the secular law and go to jail, pay fines, etc...?

I certainly do pray those times never come, although I do believe the church needs to be ready in case these issues come up. Are we, as a global church body, ready to fight this attack on God's Holiness..?

matthew



humbleinspirit -> RE: lawsuits against churches/pastors..? (8/27/2008 10:30:15 PM)

Gay marriage is legal in the State of Massachusetts. To the best of my knowledge, there has not been any lawsuits against pastors or churches for refusing to marry them at all.

Also, the last church that I was a part of my pastor would refuse to marry hetrosexual couples too if they gonna live a secular worldly lifestyle as well.



pbaribeault -> RE: lawsuits against churches/pastors..? (8/27/2008 11:18:20 PM)

In Canada homosexual "marriage" is legal, they can obtain and sign a marriage license in a legal manner, with any officiant, in any ceremony or lack-thereof that they can arrange... just like a hetrosexual couple. No pastor or Church is required to officiate for and/or host a wedding that they do not want to -- whether the couple who wants to be married is homosexual or heterosexual.



ironsharpensiron -> RE: lawsuits against churches/pastors..? (9/30/2008 7:31:57 PM)

I had started this topic a while back because it was something that had been on my mind, not many thought anything of it. I bring it up again because it was ironic that my pastor brought up this very subject this past Sunday.

Since the elections are getting closer he brought this up and wanted us, the congregation, to be aware of what is at stake. Having never spoke with him personally about this possible issue, it was made evident that he, and many other pastors, are concerned; not with just the gay/lesbian marriage issue, but also with the possible lawsuit if these people are refused the church facility to be married in. It could even lead to other issues that surround the State laws concerning, what the libs have named, 'hate speak' or 'hate talk.'

Many of you don't seem to be too concerned, but as of this past Sunday, it is clear to me that many churches are growing concerned in this State of california.

matthew



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: lawsuits against churches/pastors..? (9/30/2008 8:15:14 PM)

Would you tell us more? Examples? What exactly is feared? What has been discussed? I am not concerned at this point, but that could gbe based upon my ignorance.



SonInMe1 -> RE: lawsuits against churches/pastors..? (9/30/2008 11:27:47 PM)

quote:

openly gay but celibate" pastor.


What is this? If they are celebate..are they gay? Does this pastor promote homosexuality?



DaveW -> RE: lawsuits against churches/pastors..? (10/1/2008 10:47:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:

openly gay but celibate" pastor.
What is this? If they are celebate..are they gay?
"Gay" means a same sex attraction.
"Celebate" means not acting on that attraction.

They are not conflicting at all.



ironsharpensiron -> RE: lawsuits against churches/pastors..? (10/1/2008 8:28:13 PM)

If Proposition fails 8 fails in California...

1.Mandatory public school instruction about same-sex marriage.
2.Legal threats to churches.
Churches may be sued if they refuse to to allow same-sex marraige ceremonies
in their religious buildings open to the public.
3.Legal threats to adoption agencies.
4.Legal threats to private religious schools.
Religious schools with married student housing may be required to provide housing for
same-sex couples, even if counter to church doctrine or risk lawsuits over tax
exemptions and related benefits.
5.'Hate speech' cases against ministers.
Ministers who preach against same-sex marriages may be sued for hate speech and
risk government fines. A recent California court decision held that municipal employees
may not say 'traditional marriage' or 'family values.' If this Prop passes, even if a
minister says these things, they can be sued for 'hate speech.'


I find it truly sad that as a body of Christians we are more concerned with arguing over silly interpretations of the Bible than the enemy attacking the church.

matthew



HisLamb26 -> RE: lawsuits against churches/pastors..? (10/2/2008 8:45:32 AM)

hi Matthew,
I also live in Massachusetts, and not one church has been forced to marry any couple they don't want to marry.

As others already pointed out-it is routine in some churches to refuse to marry people, for a multitude of reasons.

For example, I know of 2 heterosexual couples refused marriage in the RCC because they were living together, and wouldn't separate before the ceremony.

Churches are free to fight for Prop 8 all they want, but according to the polls, it looks to be a losing battle.

While I certainly agree with any groups right to take a stand, at some point a dose of realism is necessary-lest the church start appearing like Don Quixote and his windmills.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: lawsuits against churches/pastors..? (10/2/2008 12:49:11 PM)

Two of my very young grandchildren went to school in California last year, and unlike my children who also went to school in California, they were taught some of the most ridiculous and confusing garbage I had ever heard of in schools. If you don't think that some children are already being given this kind of education, dig a little deeper, because they are.

As I wrote earlier, the church I work for often refuses to marry couples. No problem. And as I wrote earlier, no one gets married where I attend unless they have been a long-standing member, and membership doesn't come easily.

We need more specific information to think that this is any more of a threat than that which already exists.



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