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[Deleted] - 9/5/2008 8:18:18 PM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/5/2008 9:17:08 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1632
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quote:
So to answer your question another way, I have hope that hell will be empty and heaven will be bursting full of God's renewed people. But if that is the case, it will be because of God through Jesus Christ and not through any other means.
I am a bit confused. Are you suggesting that we have no influence on anyone's eternal destination?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/5/2008 11:25:08 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Are you suggesting that we have no influence on anyone's eternal destination? Are you suggesting that influence equates to causality?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/6/2008 12:25:36 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1632
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Are you suggesting that influence equates to causality?
Equates, perhaps not. But we must have some influence in the process. Otherwise, evangelism is worthless.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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[Deleted] - 9/6/2008 9:38:05 AM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/6/2008 10:16:21 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Now you've driven me to Noah Webster's 1828 dict. I almost don't even want to share what 'I'm seeing'.
MERIT: to deserve; to earn by active service, or by any valuable performance...
Now I would think that "putting on humility" by "submitting ourselves" or "clothing ourselves", as both verses mandate, meets the qualifiers for both of the above definitions.
UNMERITED: Not merited; not deserved; obtained without service or equivalent. Well, I would (respectfully) disagree with you, Him4all. Humility is a state of being humble, not doing or performing anything active. You have fallen ito the same faulty thinking as the Reformed crowd who incorrectly claim that faith is a good work. The more I chew on this, the more convinced I am that Matt 19:14 is linked back to Matt 18:2-4. Jesus is saying that a humble heart is the key to the kingdom of heaven and that the unaccountable are humble by nature. Thanks for helping me work this through, Him4all!
quote:
But we must have some influence in the process. Must? Chapter and verse, please. I do not recall, MrF, that Jesus required any assistance with evangelizing the thief on the cross.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/6/2008 10:40:37 AM
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steve7150
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Jesus said "bring the little children unto me for such as these is the kingdom of heaven."
He can not use little children as an example of heaven yet turn around and send them to hell, it would be a contradiction.
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[Deleted] - 9/6/2008 10:49:28 AM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/6/2008 10:56:50 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3143
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quote:
Jesus said "bring the little children unto me for such as these is the kingdom of heaven."
He can not use little children as an example of heaven yet turn around and send them to hell, it would be a contradiction. In my mind, the more important point is not the "little children" themselves, but the attitude or nature of humility they possess. Since it's been several pages back, I will repost my #27 supporting this position:
quote:
However, many commentators point out that Matt 19:14 uses the prepositional phrase "of such" (Greek twn toioutwn) to suggest it is the nature or character of a child (childlike humility as seen in Matt 18:4) that will be reflected in Heaven, not just the fact that such a one is prepubertal. Could the age of accountability then be the age at which a child loses their humble character?
Could the age of accountability then be the age at which a child loses their humble character? Has anyone who holds to this concept responded on this thread?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/6/2008 11:52:14 AM
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frankman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
you ARE saved, therefore, REPENT!
I don`t want to hi-jack the OP`s form to a discussion on universalism so I will be brief. Your statement saying "You are saved, therefore repent" sounds confusing to us all because Luke 13:3+5 tells us just the opposite. "I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will perish. I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish." We are not saved until we repent. Until you repent you are lost.
Also we may know from Scripture if all people, regardless of their faith in Christ on this earth will be allowed into heaven in the next life, but that`s a discussion on universalism, so I`ll leave it at that.
 Good for "drmark". I believe he hit the nail right on the head by asking the question if the age of accountability may be when a child loses their humble character. I believe that`s the answer to our question.
_____________________________
"The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever." Isa. 40:8 Greetings- Frankman
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/6/2008 12:27:55 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1632
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From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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emerging,
quote:
In a sense, yes, I am suggesting that.
Then why evangelize? From an eternal perspective, it would be meaningless. There are many Muslims, Hindus, Atheists, etc., who are perfectly content living the lives they're living. Why should we interfere with them by showing them Christ?
drmark,
quote:
Must? Chapter and verse, please. I do not recall, MrF, that Jesus required any assistance with evangelizing the thief on the cross.
That was during a different period - namely, the time of the physical, not-yet-glorified incarnation of Christ. Christ is no longer physically on earth.
Tell me, if we aren't needed to spread the gospel, why evangelize at all?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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[Deleted] - 9/6/2008 1:18:47 PM
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[Deleted] - 9/6/2008 1:23:25 PM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/6/2008 1:54:11 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1632
Joined: 1/29/2007
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quote:
Well, for starters we evangelize because we are commanded to do so by our Lord.
God never gives us a command without a reason.
quote:
As for it being meaningless from an eternal perspective, we don't have an eternal perspective (not yet, at least).
To a certain extent, we do. We realize that our actions here have consequences not only in this life, but in the life eternal yet to come.
quote:
Besides, if the only reason we evangelize is because we feel it our duty to get people into heaven than I believe we are missing the whole point of why Jesus came, lived and died among us.
Granted, but I'm not talking about salvation as it relates to this life. I'm talking about the final stage of salvation - glorification.
quote:
We evangelize so that we can invite people into a relationship, a union, with the one who created all things and loved them enough to desire to condescend, to enter into relationship with us by becoming one of us and even dying for us. This is a God who desires relationship with His creation and seeks to redeem the entire world.
If the only point of evangelism is to make a person's life here on earth a little better, then it seems to me that we're wasting our time with some people. Yes, some people have fairly backwards lives, and could benefit immensely from the redemptive power of Christ in this life. But I know quite a few non-Christians who are content with their life, and who really don't need Him to find happiness in this life. Granted, they might be a bit more fulfilled if they came to embrace Christ's love, but they seem pretty hostile to the gospel, so why risk ruining a good friendship for something that won't matter in a few decades? They'll have all of eternity to experience that relationship with Christ.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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[Deleted] - 9/6/2008 7:26:03 PM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/6/2008 7:58:08 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
which is how?
How not?
Take care, John. It is obvious you don't want a conversation.
Not one that is going to continually be framed by you in order to get your point across...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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[Deleted] - 9/6/2008 8:01:55 PM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/6/2008 8:06:08 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
Jesus said "bring the little children unto me for such as these is the kingdom of heaven."
He can not use little children as an example of heaven yet turn around and send them to hell, it would be a contradiction.
If that's truly the case on what grounds to Joshua put little children and babies to the sword in Jericho?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/6/2008 8:07:28 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
Jesus said "bring the little children unto me for such as these is the kingdom of heaven."
He can not use little children as an example of heaven yet turn around and send them to hell, it would be a contradiction.
Agreed, Steve.
It baffles me how well-meaning Christians will hide behind the silence of scripture on this matter when in fact scripture goes out of its way to point us to the God who IS love and ruthlessly pursues all of humanity.
If you do not know your God well enough to be able to say that this is the God of the down-trodden, the oppressed, the infant, the orphan, the widow, the marginalized, the poor than do you really worship this God in spirit and truth?
peace.
I know God well enough that being poor, marginalized or a widow IS NOT cause for Him to save them...
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 9/6/2008 9:11:20 PM >
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/6/2008 8:09:09 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Jesus said "bring the little children unto me for such as these is the kingdom of heaven."
He can not use little children as an example of heaven yet turn around and send them to hell, it would be a contradiction. In my mind, the more important point is not the "little children" themselves, but the attitude or nature of humility they possess. Since it's been several pages back, I will repost my #27 supporting this position:
quote:
However, many commentators point out that Matt 19:14 uses the prepositional phrase "of such" (Greek twn toioutwn) to suggest it is the nature or character of a child (childlike humility as seen in Matt 18:4) that will be reflected in Heaven, not just the fact that such a one is prepubertal. Could the age of accountability then be the age at which a child loses their humble character?
Could the age of accountability then be the age at which a child loses their humble character? Has anyone who holds to this concept responded on this thread?
I think one could draw numbers out of hat and come to the same conclusion....
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/6/2008 8:10:26 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
which is how?
How not?
Take care, John. It is obvious you don't want a conversation.
Not one that is going to continually br framed by you in order to get your point across...
So asking you to answer a simple question means I am framing the conversation? I see.
If you don't want to answer it, fine. I see no need to go on then with you.
take care.
I did answer your question... You just don't like the answer...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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[Deleted] - 9/6/2008 8:19:25 PM
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[Deleted] - 9/6/2008 8:20:32 PM
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/6/2008 9:10:10 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
I did answer your question... You just don't like the answer...
If you did, can you point me to the post?
I asked you what is God's posture towards all of humanity and you said it is the same as it is to everyone. I asked you what that posture is and you again said, the same as it is to everyone.
Sorry, that isn't an answer.
It isn't the answer you seek and I when I played the bible says game you didn't wanna play either... I have been here before...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: a baby or infant died ,does he will save or not ?... - 9/6/2008 9:11:58 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
I know God well enough that being poor, marginalized or a widow is cause for Him to save them...
Good. than we are in agreement at least on this much.
Nope sorry for the typo...
That should be...
I know God well enough that being poor, marginalized or a widow IS NOT cause for Him to save them...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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