RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill person who is about to die
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 12:45:06 PM
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stellaluna
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
My wife and I do not agree on this. If I were the one comotose, she would probably pull the plug. IMO she would have to answer to God for killing me.
If it were reveresed I would keep her alive as long as I possibly could. If I were to hit a big lotto jackpot it just might sustain her for a century or 2. Anything less than that I would consider to be murder.
Dave, is this scenario for real?! If you and your wife totally disagree, why would you not honor the other spouse's wish in order to maintain respect for their position?
This is a good question. And without winning the lottery you would do what to keep your wife on a ventilator?
And I guess it means you don't believe in organ donation.
My thinking is along those of QTMan...as is my husband's. He is more opposed to remaining artificially "alive" than I am, but I think a concurring second opinion is enough evidence for me.
My grandmother was diagnosed with a chronic, progressive liver disease about two years ago and she chose at the time not to treat it. She is turning 81 this year and she doesn't believe in spending money on trying to prolong her life. There is no cure for the disease, so she has chosen to manage it the best she can with diet and that's it. If we, her family, choose not to intervene and she dies as a result of her illness, I don't believe that is the same as killing her.
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 12:47:35 PM
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drmark
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quote:
Noble? Well you're sweet to even suggest such a thing. Do you think it's noble to call me sweet? 
quote:
The question would be how much technology was being used to prevent an inevitable death verses being used to save a life. And the Scriptural support for such an "absolute" moral position is...
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 1:13:06 PM
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drmark
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quote:
We are all going to have to make judgment calls based on the principles of Scripture. I could not agree more and because our judgement is firmly rooted in Scripture, it will not be morally relative. Thanks for the dialogue, benelchi, and I will be more careful with "unfair attacks" in the future.
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 2:05:58 PM
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rcjames
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My wife and I both have decided that if it comes to a machine to keep us alive then 3 days is it. If God does not heal us by them; then pull us off the machine.
Thanks
RC
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Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 2:18:38 PM
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DaveW
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RC - that is suicide. I am surprised.
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 2:25:11 PM
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drmark
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C'mon, Dave, you're married to a presumed murderess. Is that any better?
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 2:32:01 PM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
RC - that is suicide. I am surprised.
Question. Define suicide..(I guess in this case it would be a different kind of suicide). Is suicide letting your bodily home die? (If we assume that brain death is equivalent to death.) Would it still be suicide then (to you I mean, it's not to me anyway)?
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 4:50:30 PM
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drmark
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quote:
This confuses me quite a bit. I don't see death as antibiblical, but it sounds like forcing one to 'remain physical present' is? Excellent point, KuKu! Paul states a least a few times in his letters how he wished to be united with the Lord in Heaven. Would someone have been disobeying God's Will for the Apostle by deliberately prolonging his final demise if they had that capability?
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 4:55:40 PM
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Qtman
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We are not talking about cutting someone's life short here. We are talking about someone that is already dying and is not going to live very long. If it is not God's will for them to die they won't. If it is his will, if they have reach their appointed time they will die no matter what we do. This whole thread is do we use artifical means to keep them alive.
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 5:09:58 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
RC - that is suicide. I am surprised.
I do not know if your post is "Tongue in cheek" or not, but let me relate an event from my life.
My father, after a massive heart attack was put on a ventalort and the doctors told my mom and me that he would never be able to live without the ventalator.
Dad had told my mom that he did not want to live by a machine, but mom just could not make the decision. She signed the papers over to me to make the decision, and I did as my dad had requested.
I went into the room with the doctor and watched as he pulled the ventalator and feeding tubes out of my dad. My dad laid there about 2 minutes and then coughed and coughed and said as only he could "I am so glad you took those **** tubes out of me; they were choking me to death"
He lived another seven years and died peacefully in his sleep in our guest bedroom after seeing three more greatchildren born and brought to him.
No matter what we do; God is still and will always be in control.
Thsnks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 5:14:04 PM
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drmark
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quote:
We are talking about someone that is already dying and is not going to live very long. How many hundreds of cases (maybe thousands) are there where a patient lives many years after their prognosis of "terminal" disease is rendered? I'm flattered, but you give the medical profession far too much credit for prophesy!
quote:
This whole thread is do we use artifical means to keep them alive. And it's still not clear to me if some consider food and water to be "artificial" or just fancy machines.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 5:24:13 PM
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Qtman
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I can't speak for everyone on here but I would never withhold food an d water from anyone. I am talking about keeping them comfortable and not relying on a machine to make them breath, keep their heart beating, and keep other bodily functions going. I am not talking about starving someone to death. There is a big difference as far as I am concerned. I fed my mother as long as she wanted to eat. I gave her or had the hospital staff give her pain medications to try to keep her comfortable. Other than that I simply let her go as she wished.
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Remember: God loves you and I'm trying!
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Body Piercings
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 5:29:51 PM
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drmark
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quote:
I can't speak for everyone on here but I would never withhold food an d water from anyone. Is an IV artificial? How about a feeding tube? Who should decide the "burden and benefit" of such procedures?
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 5:46:38 PM
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stellaluna
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This may sound like a copout, but I think a very important part of the equation is "What is wrong with you or your loved one?"
Let's say you are diagnosed with kidney cancer. What is the prognosis? What is your age? What is the treatment? What are the benefits and negatives of the treatment, if the prognosis isn't good? How much of a financial burden do you want to bear and/or want your family to bear? etc.
Let's say you are in a tragic accident and you sustain brain damage, as in some of the examples in the thread. How long do you want to remain on machines? Do you want to donate your organs? At what point is your family to allow those organs to be taken? How much of a financial burden do you want your family to bear? etc.
There is not a blanket decision for every situation. The simplest solution is for everyone to make a decision early--at 18, not 70--and let their family members know what they want. And minds can always be changed, but this isn't an old person situation, this is an everyone situation. Parents will have to do their best should a situation come up with a minor child, based on what they believe God wants them to do.
I would challenge everyone to look more into end-of-life issues. Talk with hospice personnel, if you can. Talk with your pastor.
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 7:40:27 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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I tried to formulate a question to the medical personnel out there, but I just couldn't.
Here's the bottom line for me: If I am brain-dead, remove the oxygen tube and the feeding tube and let me die, for good night! If I don't at that point, then G-d must have a reason, but without food, surely, it would only take days, I hope!
Send me home, buy me a cheap casket, and rejoice! I know the L-rd, I have had enough of the good life to be extremely grateful, and don't give me a funeral with my casket sitting up there. Let me children and the older grandchildren look to see that I really am dead, then bury me quickly.
Have a memorial service that glorifies my G-d and praises Him for His salvation, His love, His gifts, His presence, His timing, His mercy, His blessings, His omniscience, and anything else you can think of. If you have a recording of me cutting up, being crazy, singing like a nut, play it. Let the tears be few and the laughter plenteous. G-d is good! He has the master plan!
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 8:23:06 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
Sit at my mother's bedside as she died, she was 92 years old, had had many strokes, was in a wheelchair, no bowel or bladder control and her speech was grabbled and very hard to understand. She told the nursing home staff that she was not going to eat or drink anymore and had a DNR order. My sister, brother and I went in every meal time the last three weeks and tried to encourage her to eat or at lest drink. We allowed them to give her pain meds but nothing else. The last week we maintained a 24 hour watch. She slowly went downhill and into a coma and died comfortably. In this situation she made the decision and we honoured it. I was with her at the end and could feel God's presence in the room. We did not kill her, we did all we could for her and we have no guilt about her death. My husband and I have DNR orders and our children know our wishes. Allowing someone, to go to God when they are suffering is totally different than causing their death. Been there, done that and while I grieve her death I feel we did the right thing for her.
Thank you for sharing this with us. You honored your mother as she died. Bless you. God was honored as well.  LL
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 8:24:56 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
Here's the bottom line for me: If I am brain-dead, remove the oxygen tube and the feeding tube and let me die, for good night! If I don't at that point, then G-d must have a reason, but without food, surely, it would only take days, I hope!
Send me home, buy me a cheap casket, and rejoice! I know the L-rd, I have had enough of the good life to be extremely grateful, and don't give me a funeral with my casket sitting up there. Let me children and the older grandchildren look to see that I really am dead, then bury me quickly.
Have a memorial service that glorifies my G-d and praises Him for His salvation, His love, His gifts, His presence, His timing, His mercy, His blessings, His omniscience, and anything else you can think of. If you have a recording of me cutting up, being crazy, singing like a nut, play it. Let the tears be few and the laughter plenteous. G-d is good! He has the master plan!
Amen. Another beautiful testimony. This is my desire as well. It's ALL about JESUS. Bless you!
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/25/2008 9:06:32 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
Amen. Another beautiful testimony. This is my desire as well. It's ALL about JESUS. Bless you!
Thank you, Loved. To G-d be the glory!
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/26/2008 12:24:43 AM
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Mrs.Wifey
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quote:
Dad had told my mom that he did not want to live by a machine, but mom just could not make the decision. She signed the papers over to me to make the decision, and I did as my dad had requested.
I went into the room with the doctor and watched as he pulled the ventalator and feeding tubes out of my dad. My dad laid there about 2 minutes and then coughed and coughed and said as only he could "I am so glad you took those **** tubes out of me; they were choking me to death"
He lived another seven years and died peacefully in his sleep in our guest bedroom after seeing three more greatchildren born and brought to him.
Obviously God did not intend to take your father home, which is incredible.
DH and I do not agree with long term life support. If our bodies are dying, then let us die. Should God want us to continue to live, then He can do without the use of life support machines. Allowing an already essentially dead body to die is not usurping God's power.
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/26/2008 12:42:29 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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While we are on this subject, my first husband died while we were terribly young and inexperienced. We never expected one of us would die so young, but because of his regret at seeing his grandfather in the coffin, he told me to have close casket, and no one was to see him. When he did die in an accident, I took that very seriously and allowed only the man who identified him to see him, then the casket stayed closed.
Don't do that. The nearest ones should see loved one who has died.
I hurt his mother terribly by doing this. I probably hurt his father, but he would never admit that. I probably hurt his siblings, but they haven't said so. I am not sure if I hurt our children -- they were only 2 & 5. I hurt myself.
Seeing them is part of acceptance, part of understanding the finality, especially when they are young or didn't suffer through long illness.
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/26/2008 6:33:08 AM
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DaveW
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No RC, the post was not tongue in cheek; this is something I am very serious about. While I am not beyond God pursuading me differently; to me, any DNR or no extraordinary life support is the same as suicide. I see no difference between that and calling good ole' Dr Jack Kavorkian.
Absolutely God will do what He will, as evidenced by your dad. Paul wrote that it is appointed unto man once to die. Again, if HE wants to take us out, he will in HIS time. As I see it, it is our job to fight to keep life going as long as humanly possible, even if it is just pumping blood thru an otherwise inoperative lump of flesh.
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Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Withdrawing medical treatment from a terminally ill... - 8/26/2008 9:52:19 AM
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car2ner
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quote:
As I see it, it is our job to fight to keep life going as long as humanly possible, even if it is just pumping blood thru an otherwise inoperative lump of flesh.
I appreciate your passion but I really don't understand it. I think very much like Abiyah. Please let me go "home" with dignity and not force me to stay on this earth longer than I should. It seems that some folks have been blessed with knowing that it is time to go, and they stop eatting, etc. I would treat them the same way I would want to be treated, that is with respect for my decision. Not forced to die and not forced to linger.
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But maybe you and I have differing personal definitions of noble. Perhaps i should take a new look at the definition! 
