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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 9/27/2008 5:22:53 PM
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wbporter
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I have played my violin in other churches for CCM, but there is no comparing that music with that of the classical composers. Bach, Brahms, and Mendelssohn either played violin or consulted with a violinist while writing for it. Modern arrangers know little about it other than its range with little knowledge of what can be done well on it and what can be done with difficulty, intonation problems, etc. It's like, "Let's just give these notes to the fiddles and, oh yes, kick them upstairs an octave or two."
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 9/29/2008 10:43:28 AM
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Kenny Metcalf
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They lack anointing.
It's not about how much time you spend with the King of Kings any longer to be a recording artist.
It's no longer about humble yourself.
It's not about being the servant of all.
It's not about putting out the BEST.
It's also not about the depth of relationship an artist has with the Savior.
It's not about songs birthed out of "real" life changing experiences.
It's not about Him!
It's all about getting you to buy the next Johnny come lately.
It's about the look.
It's about the cookie cutter sound(no originality).
It's about being famous.
And let's not forget the Money. (for the labels and this industry.. it's all about the money).
I wish I could say it was sincerely about touching lives for Christ ... but it's not, it's all big business.
To the many many music boards I am always on.. the trail of why people do what they do is clearly seen, and most of the artists trying to make it up the ranks are all about fame, in the name of Jesus of course, but it's all about them.
That is where ministry has changed. Gone are the days of "I must decrease and he must increase" with the music ministry. It's just business as usual.
CCLI is a prime example of that. You can not sing "Praise to God" in a church without paying a royalty.
Yet if the artist got the song originally from the Holy Spirit's inpiration.. the song was meant for God (and not us), but in order to sing it to God, they have twisted scripture to say "The laborers worthy of his hire) and they then charge a church money to sing praise to God. Is this sinking in yet?
Many of the great contemporary songs you sing in church today were written for the money factor. Being on the inside I know many artists and have heard the stories.
Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.. that comes to mind as well.
How many of these artists will give their "Praise music" away? Freely you have received, freely give?
Rich young ruler also comes to mind.. one thing you lack.. sell all you have and come follow me.
It's all business friends.. just business.
I did not become a minister for the money.. I got involved to reach lost and dying souls with the message and passion of Jesus Christ. To live for his plan and purpose.
Since 1976 ministry for me has NEVER been about money, and those who have made it that have a rude awakening coming... soon.
other than that.. they have much to offer us 
< Message edited by Kenny Metcalf -- 9/29/2008 10:58:26 AM >
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 9/29/2008 11:22:06 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2498
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kenny Metcalf
They lack anointing.
It's not about how much time you spend with the King of Kings any longer to be a recording artist.
It's no longer about humble yourself.
It's not about being the servant of all.
It's not about putting out the BEST.
It's also not about the depth of relationship an artist has with the Savior.
It's not about songs birthed out of "real" life changing experiences.
It's not about Him!
It's all about getting you to buy the next Johnny come lately.
It's about the look.
It's about the cookie cutter sound(no originality).
It's about being famous.
And let's not forget the Money. (for the labels and this industry.. it's all about the money).
I wish I could say it was sincerely about touching lives for Christ ... but it's not, it's all big business.
To the many many music boards I am always on.. the trail of why people do what they do is clearly seen, and most of the artists trying to make it up the ranks are all about fame, in the name of Jesus of course, but it's all about them.
That is where ministry has changed. Gone are the days of "I must decrease and he must increase" with the music ministry. It's just business as usual.
CCLI is a prime example of that. You can not sing "Praise to God" in a church without paying a royalty.
Yet if the artist got the song originally from the Holy Spirit's inpiration.. the song was meant for God (and not us), but in order to sing it to God, they have twisted scripture to say "The laborers worthy of his hire) and they then charge a church money to sing praise to God. Is this sinking in yet?
Many of the great contemporary songs you sing in church today were written for the money factor. Being on the inside I know many artists and have heard the stories.
Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.. that comes to mind as well.
How many of these artists will give their "Praise music" away? Freely you have received, freely give?
Rich young ruler also comes to mind.. one thing you lack.. sell all you have and come follow me.
It's all business friends.. just business.
I did not become a minister for the money.. I got involved to reach lost and dying souls with the message and passion of Jesus Christ. To live for his plan and purpose.
Since 1976 ministry for me has NEVER been about money, and those who have made it that have a rude awakening coming... soon.
other than that.. they have much to offer us
What further need have we of witnesses?
Kenny you hit the nail squarely on the head! Great post!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 9/29/2008 12:32:45 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2381
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I've said it before, and I will say it again . . .
The problem with CCM is that it is the ONLY genre of music that is characterized not by its sound, but by its lyrics, and I think that is a problem.
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love.ben
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 9/29/2008 12:37:15 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4073
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"Hit the nail on the head."
That he did. With one exception: as to the humility point, I have been around christian musicians (local not pros) and classical musicians (pros) for over 35 years. THe christian musicians mostly wanted their own little spotlight to show what they could do. Even if there was no $$ to be had. It stroked their egos. Back almost 40 years ago I was around several SG quartets, the pros. Many of them (not all by any means) also had pride issues. So I would submit that arrogance has always been part of christian music.
Pride is endemic in the old nature. It seems especially strong in performing artists, including musicians. Some have had more success than others in crucifying it. In this dog-eat-dog world of secular music companies owning the CCM (and some SG) music lables, only those with pride and drive to promote self get to the top.
Humility gets you ignored.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 9/29/2008 1:36:30 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2498
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Humility gets you ignored.
But good music doesn't!
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
The problem with CCM is that it is the ONLY genre of music that is characterized not by its sound, but by its lyrics, and I think that is a problem.
Excellent point! Lyrics come first, then the musicianship becomes secondary. If you wrote one verse of a stereotypical song, what would it look like?
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 9/30/2008 11:14:33 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4073
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13quote:
Humility gets you ignored. But good music doesn't! Tell that to Phil Keaggy who got dumped from his record contract a few years back. He is one of the best guitarists (if not THE best) and a very creative composer and they dumped him for not being commercial enough.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
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Our CD is now available here:
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 9/30/2008 11:36:15 AM
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freakofnature
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quote:
In this dog-eat-dog world of secular music companies owning the CCM (and some SG) music lables, only those with pride and drive to promote self get to the top.
True, but while there is a problem with pride, I certainly don't feel as if there is an issue with drive, unless that drive becomes an idol. I guess then the whole problem with Christian music is that your perserverance and drive may cause you to lose focus, it's kinda a catch 22, if you know what I mean. You seve the god of success and not the one true God, whereas those in the secular world do serve the god of success faithfully and to whatever end.
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 9/30/2008 12:43:31 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4073
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quote:
ORIGINAL: freakofnature
but while there is a problem with pride, I certainly don't feel as if there is an issue with drive, unless that drive becomes an idol. I guess then the whole problem with Christian music is that your perserverance and drive may cause you to lose focus, it's kinda a catch 22, if you know what I mean. You seve the god of success and not the one true God, whereas those in the secular world do serve the god of success faithfully and to whatever end. I would submit that self-promotion is sinful.
A friend (guitarist, bassist, songwriter and worship leader) once observed that as christians, musicians are handicapped as far as pursuing either technical excelence or commercial success. Secular musicians can put their drive first or technical prowess first and we have to put the Lord first, then family and congregation, and only after all that can we put the music.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 9/30/2008 3:03:01 PM
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freakofnature
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quote:
A friend (guitarist, bassist, songwriter and worship leader) once observed that as christians, musicians are handicapped as far as pursuing either technical excelence or commercial success.
BINGO!!! Bob... tell 'em what he's won! All that and he's a bass player too.
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 9/30/2008 8:18:23 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1934
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
A friend (guitarist, bassist, songwriter and worship leader) once observed that as christians, musicians are handicapped as far as pursuing either technical excelence or commercial success. Secular musicians can put their drive first or technical prowess first and we have to put the Lord first, then family and congregation, and only after all that can we put the music.
I don't really buy that. There may be some level of handicap, but no more than that faced by the Christian businessman, doctor, athlete, or soldier. It's all in how you manage your time. Some people and some families can handle hectic schedules and long periods of separation. I can't, but some can.
I'd imagine that the person (Christian or not) who learns to balance their commitments earlier will be happier and healthier in the long run than the person who doesn't figure it out until later.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 9/30/2008 10:02:57 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2498
Joined: 10/1/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
I don't really buy that. There may be some level of handicap, but no more than that faced by the Christian businessman, doctor, athlete, or soldier. It's all in how you manage your time. Some people and some families can handle hectic schedules and long periods of separation. I can't, but some can.
I'd imagine that the person (Christian or not) who learns to balance their commitments earlier will be happier and healthier in the long run than the person who doesn't figure it out until later.
-Dan.
Very good point! I thought boasting about God was allowed. "Whoever boasts should boast in the Lord!" (2 Cor. 10:17)
"And even if I should boast a little too much of our own authority, which the Lord gave for building you up and not tearing you down, I shall not be put to shame. (2 Cor. 10:8)
"Since many boast according to the flesh, so too will I boast." (2 Cor. 11:18)
If they were promoting their own hedonism I think there could be a case against that type of boasting but don't hide that light under a bushel basket!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/4/2008 12:04:38 PM
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gaylel1
Posts: 1287
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Southern California, the land of Fruit and nuts...
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kenny Metcalf
They lack anointing.
It's not about how much time you spend with the King of Kings any longer to be a recording artist.
It's no longer about humble yourself.
It's not about being the servant of all.
It's not about putting out the BEST.
It's also not about the depth of relationship an artist has with the Savior.
It's not about songs birthed out of "real" life changing experiences.
It's not about Him!
It's all about getting you to buy the next Johnny come lately.
It's about the look.
It's about the cookie cutter sound(no originality).
It's about being famous.
And let's not forget the Money. (for the labels and this industry.. it's all about the money).
I wish I could say it was sincerely about touching lives for Christ ... but it's not, it's all big business.
To the many many music boards I am always on.. the trail of why people do what they do is clearly seen, and most of the artists trying to make it up the ranks are all about fame, in the name of Jesus of course, but it's all about them.
That is where ministry has changed. Gone are the days of "I must decrease and he must increase" with the music ministry. It's just business as usual.
CCLI is a prime example of that. You can not sing "Praise to God" in a church without paying a royalty.
Yet if the artist got the song originally from the Holy Spirit's inpiration.. the song was meant for God (and not us), but in order to sing it to God, they have twisted scripture to say "The laborers worthy of his hire) and they then charge a church money to sing praise to God. Is this sinking in yet?
Many of the great contemporary songs you sing in church today were written for the money factor. Being on the inside I know many artists and have heard the stories.
Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.. that comes to mind as well.
How many of these artists will give their "Praise music" away? Freely you have received, freely give?
Rich young ruler also comes to mind.. one thing you lack.. sell all you have and come follow me.
It's all business friends.. just business.
I did not become a minister for the money.. I got involved to reach lost and dying souls with the message and passion of Jesus Christ. To live for his plan and purpose.
Since 1976 ministry for me has NEVER been about money, and those who have made it that have a rude awakening coming... soon.
other than that.. they have much to offer us
Kenny, there are those who are not in it for the money. Just check people like the Chris Tomlin, the Bart Millards, the Jeremy Camps and others who are there to minister to the people. These people appear at events like Harvest so the people can see them for free and to minister to the people. About the royalties, people do have to get paid for their labor because Christian artists have to pay the rent and other bills too just like you. Songwriting is their livelyhood and they do have to be rewarded for their labor.
_____________________________
Hear "The Truth" with the "other"l Jeff Johnson(http://www.calvarydowney.org)
Visit me at http:www.gayleplace.blogspot.com or http://www.myspace.com/gaylel121
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/4/2008 12:10:38 PM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 17903
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Just Outside of Boston
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The only problem is that there are people (Christians mind you) who believe that not only should music should not make a profit off of, but that it is ok to copy such work too. They hold the same belief for an artist drawing a painting also.
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/4/2008 12:28:01 PM
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rgod
Posts: 1475
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quote:
ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
The only problem is that there are people (Christians mind you) who believe that not only should music should not make a profit off of, but that it is ok to copy such work too. They hold the same belief for an artist drawing a painting also.
Humbleinspirit - that is true. It makes it very hard for people to make a living as a Christian artist. I've seen this a LOT in Christian circles. I can't tell you how many people say - I have this CD and I'll burn it for you. In my mind it is stealing.
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/4/2008 3:04:59 PM
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humbleinspirit
Posts: 17903
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Just Outside of Boston
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Its much more prevalent today. I will say that someone burning a CD and someone having the attitude that I mention above is different notions. But then again, people pervieve things quite differently today than they used to as well.
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/6/2008 1:39:14 PM
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Mark328
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The biggest problem I see with CCM is the lack of creativity. It seems that Christian record labels are so afraid of the music sounding "worldly" that the music ends up being <enter genre here> lite. I don't care what genre it is, metal, pop, hip-hop. In the metal realm, which is my genre of choice, bands like Pillar sound like 80s pop-metal. And Christian labels are willing to sacrifice music quality as long as they continue to praise. Now, I'm not anti-praise or anything, but what's the crime with CCM sounding like other music out there? The only difference between CCM and secular music should be the message, not the music itself.
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/6/2008 3:23:42 PM
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uncabeeil
Posts: 5782
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Joisey. Got a problem wit dat?
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quote:
I can't tell you how many people say - I have this CD and I'll burn it for you. In my mind it is stealing. Not only in your mind, but also in the eyes of the law. Anything that's copyrighted cannot be legally copied without "the express written consent of the artist". That means in writing, folks. I hear people say they'll burn a copy all the time in the store where I work. I make sure to tell them that they're breaking the law and taking money out of the artist's pocket. Most just shrug and walk away. I guess they figure it ain't a sin if it's Christian music they're stealing.
_____________________________
Pretty leaves are falling down,
Green, orange, yellow and brown.
Here comes one colored red,
It landed on my head.
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/6/2008 10:09:43 PM
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MontoyaF1
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When I first saw this topic, I immediately thought the answer was "Jesus." Most CCM songs I hear on my local Christian station don't mention God or Christ anywhere in the lyrics, and the meanings behind the lyrics are typically so profoundly hidden that you either have no idea what they are singing about, or it sounds like a love song to their girlfriend.
I have reached the point where I have to look down at my stereo's tuner to tell whether the music I'm listening to is Christian or not!
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/6/2008 10:53:37 PM
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rgod
Posts: 1475
Joined: 4/25/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: uncabeeil
quote:
I can't tell you how many people say - I have this CD and I'll burn it for you. In my mind it is stealing. Not only in your mind, but also in the eyes of the law. Anything that's copyrighted cannot be legally copied without "the express written consent of the artist". That means in writing, folks. I hear people say they'll burn a copy all the time in the store where I work. I make sure to tell them that they're breaking the law and taking money out of the artist's pocket. Most just shrug and walk away. I guess they figure it ain't a sin if it's Christian music they're stealing.
I'm in agreement with you. Everytime you do that, you are taking money out of the artist's pocket. I won't even burn a sermon CD - I'd rather pay for it - or just loan it to another person. I feel that it is ok to make another copy for your own personal use (like say on your computer or for ipod), but that it isn't ok for you to take a CD and burn it for five of your buddies. But since the model for disseminating music is changing - the ways in which artists are making a living are changing too. For a long time now, the money has been made with tours. Some artists give away their work - it is more like a promotional tool - but the tour is the experience that people pay for. This is purely a secular way of looking at things - as a ministry it is a bit different. But, the "tour" translates into church bookings and love offerings or a fee nonetheless.
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/7/2008 3:41:01 AM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2381
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In my heart of hearts, I want to say otherwise, but whenever this kind of question comes up, people instantly say "lack of creativity/innovation."
While there are bands that certainly defy that, the fact that so many people continue to bring that point up is a little unsettling.
With that being said, I, in my own mind, don't separate "Christian" from "secular."
I know two kinds of music: good and bad. I listen to good.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/7/2008 11:59:56 AM
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Market42Fan
Posts: 163
Joined: 9/10/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MontoyaF1
When I first saw this topic, I immediately thought the answer was "Jesus." Most CCM songs I hear on my local Christian station don't mention God or Christ anywhere in the lyrics, and the meanings behind the lyrics are typically so profoundly hidden that you either have no idea what they are singing about, or it sounds like a love song to their girlfriend.
I have reached the point where I have to look down at my stereo's tuner to tell whether the music I'm listening to is Christian or not!
We have a winner!
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/7/2008 12:08:58 PM
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nealmorsefan
Posts: 315
Joined: 10/18/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
With that being said, I, in my own mind, don't separate "Christian" from "secular."
SCENARIO: You're in an industrial/techno/rock sort of mood and walk to your CD rack. Sitting right next to each other you have a Skillet CD (not the self-titled) and a random Nine Inch Nails CD. Assuming you have no other options available (without running to the CD store), which do you choose?
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/7/2008 12:36:07 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2381
Joined: 5/16/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: nealmorsefan
quote:
ORIGINAL: 1love1God1way
With that being said, I, in my own mind, don't separate "Christian" from "secular."
SCENARIO: You're in an industrial/techno/rock sort of mood and walk to your CD rack. Sitting right next to each other you have a Skillet CD (not the self-titled) and a random Nine Inch Nails CD. Assuming you have no other options available (without running to the CD store), which do you choose?
Depends on which album it is of either of theirs. They both had good and bad ones.
If they are both my favorite album from them, I might choose Skillet out of nostalgia, but would have no problem with selecting Nine Inch Nails over them, either.
_____________________________
love.ben
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RE: What Most CCM is Lacking - 10/7/2008 1:13:05 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4073
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rgodquote:
I can't tell you how many people say - I have this CD and I'll burn it for you. In my mind it is stealing. I'm in agreement with you. Everytime you do that, you are taking money out of the artist's pocket. I (as an artist) do not buy that line of thought. It assumes that everyone that gets a pirated copy of work X would have bought work X on the open market and that simply is not true. For every 10 people who would like a pirated copy, maybe only one was willing to actually pay for it. That number is a guess and probably way too high. It may be more like one in a hundred.
While I agree it is stealing, as it is defined in law that way; it also has the effect of increasing sales for independant artists. Their music or whatever gets a wider audience and more people want to buy an honest copy if they like it.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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