|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Christian greed - 8/22/2008 10:53:40 AM
|
|
|
pstrdebi
Posts: 739
Joined: 4/28/2008
From: So. Oregon, by way of So. Cal.
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
Are you saying that a young couple who marries and makes minimum wage can't have a baby simply because the mommy may need to get on County medical?
Well your son "proved' that they can certainly have one.
But was it the right choice for them to make knowing they could not provide for the baby and the responsibility would fall on the backs of others.
It appears to me that when the OP asked this question " Are we expecting others to pay for our privilege of having children?" your reply at least on behalf of your Adult (not kid) son and adult dil is yes.
Now if you don't think some of us don't find that offensive that you believe your Adult Son and Adult DIL should decide to have "us" provide for their choice to start a family you are incorrect in your assumption.
EXCUSE ME!!! Did I say the county covered their entire bill?
Don't assume with a high and mighty attitude. Nor should you make judgements on anyone, since you do not know individual circumstances! When your employer does not offer medical coverage you do not always have the luxury of just writing a check!
I suppose you would would have rather they had an abortion!?
Do not stand there wringing your hands and tell me that if your daughter got pregnant and had no insurance, that she would not apply for government help! For heavens sake... there are people out there who need help... and if you are without sin... well cast the stone!
_____________________________
"For in Him we live and move and have our being..." Acts 17:28a
http://www.therockfellowship.org
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian greed - 8/22/2008 11:06:14 AM
|
|
|
deliveredarling
Posts: 1936
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
|
If I may interject here: There is a difference between those who refuse to work and mooch off the system than those who work their behinds off and need help in order to make it.
A person who is willing to work to make it deserves the kindness of strangers, rather than the person who will take and take and take with the expectation of receiving more and not giving back.
There is a mentality among the vast people of America. The difference should be apparent.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian greed - 8/22/2008 11:35:12 AM
|
|
|
Little_1
Posts: 1455
Status: offline
|
quote:
I don't agree that "oppression" is the right word, "exploit" or "take advantage of" might be better...... -Dan.
I agree Dan - 'exploit' would have been a better term to explain what I meant.
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian greed - 8/22/2008 11:41:25 AM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 2972
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
I suppose you would would have rather they had an abortion!?
No I had much rather your son and dil do what most people do and wait to get married until they were able to provide for themselves and the very likely possibility of a new baby they knew could occur once they went into the marriage bed. Making only min. wage they should have known they could not afford marriage at this time. Min. wage jobs are for beginners not for people who desire to support a family.
Your anger is apparent.
According to scripture it's the "families" responsibility to provide for their family members who are in need.
My son is 20 and buys his own medical insurance. He lives on his own and pays in a pretty penny in income tax because he has no deductions other than what he gives to the chruch and charity. He is working two jobs and taking two night classes per week at the local college - again he is paying for those classes. His medical insurance cost him about $200.00 per month. He knows what it means to be a responsible person and is working to teach his "peers" the same. He knows that it's not responsible for him to marry a woman if he is not going to within reason be able to provide for her and possibly an unexpected child.
quote:
Do not stand there wringing your hands and tell me that if your daughter got pregnant and had no insurance, that she would not apply for government help!
I do not have a daughter. But if I did I would teach her as I did my son that they cannot remove themselves from my home until they can afford to support themselves and pay for their medical insurance. Medical insurance is something we don't take forgranted in our home. It's comes into play before cloths, cable or a "two" bedroom apartment.
You are making excuses for your grown son's actions and it's only going to hurt him and his family in the long run. He needs to take responsibility for his own family. If he cannot YOU and the rest of his and her family should according to scripture step up to the plate.
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/22/2008 11:49:08 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian greed - 8/22/2008 11:50:38 AM
|
|
|
Little_1
Posts: 1455
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
If I may interject here: There is a difference between those who refuse to work and mooch off the system than those who work their behinds off and need help in order to make it......
I agree. I think a lot of families are discouraged that they work really long and hard hours and yet don't have quite enough to make ends meet without some kind of government assistance/help.
Can I share a little personal experience regarding having a family or not having a family?
I decided not to have children because my husband and I were in a situation where finances were tight and I did not want to bring a child into the world whereby we would be struggling to make ends meet. I have since come to realise that this was also selfishness on my part because I did not want to do without or have to make ends meet in order to provide for another. However, I have since come to regret this deeply and the Lord since showed me the text which speaks about His desire for humans to populate the earth (Genesis). God actually commanded Adam and Eve to populate the earth and these days, I hurt when I hear someone saying that someone should not have a child if they may face a financial struggle. God's Word does say that we should work (as pstrdebi's son does) and work hard (again pstrdebi's son is obeying God by doing so).
I wish I had never waited until I had plenty money to have a child because I realise now that I could have given a child a good home with a lot of love despite perhaps not having a lot of luxuries. God knows us before we are even born - even before the world was created for that matter! Does God judge anyone who is born into this world whether they are born into a financially secure family or otherwise? Does he judge the parents if they are not so wealthy as to afford medical cover? God bless such struggling families who work hard and still find it hard to meet ends meet and help them to bring their children up in the love of the Lord because this in itself is a most important job which God intrusts to parents.
< Message edited by Little_1 -- 8/22/2008 11:59:10 AM >
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian greed - 8/22/2008 11:51:52 AM
|
|
|
Dancre
Posts: 1289
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
I think you make an interesting point here. Does the 'stash cash' control you or do you control the 'cash stash'? You said you took the SC and gave it to others in need instead of spending it on the newest, fanciest phone that will do everything but clean your kitchen sink. It's ok to have the cash stash in fact proverbs calls it wisdom to have a stash cash. But it's when the SC has you that you won't share or give to others b/c you have to have the brightest, prettiest thing out there that causes the trouble. The junk gives you a temporary happiness and fills a need. If the junk and SC fill a need and makes you secured then get rid of it. I too have had this happen to me. God gave me cash only to give to others. Then He gave me what and what I needed. God is my provider, He ownes the cattle on all the hills. It's interesting how God works, isn't it?
And I think What Lived meant by the having kids and being on welfare is that sometimes we need wisdom with our finances. It reminds me of the people who bought the houses when they couldn't afford them in the first place and now they are in forclosure. Be wise with your money. It's God's money, not yours. If you can't afford to have kids, then use wisdom and use birth control until you can afford kids instead of being on welfare. That's all. :)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
I find it interesting that 'assumptions' are made when you post this type of thread. Assumptions like my being disappointed with brethren and achieving some measure of success in this area of giving---isn't the topic greed?. Are these assumptions assuming I'm holding myself above others? I'm not going to assume that but as one who has shared openly and honestly on this forum in many threads regarding my own sin, things I have been convicted of, repented for, and my need to be continually open to the Spirit's search light, I am just asking questions that come from my time with the Lord. Yesterday's question included a confession.
Are these threads hitting us too close to home? Do we really not want to talk about how we are doing?
You're absolutely right, blue1914, that we need to allow God to show us how we're doing in all areas of giving as well. Are we givers or a takers?
One of the ways I was challenged in this area of giving was with my 'cash stash'. This is money that I've been given even for a birthday or as payment for something I did or sold. It was money I set aside to spend on something 'special'. The Lord challenged me to see something 'special' in a new way. So years ago, I began to give this money to others as needs presented themselves. For example, a woman at church told me she had unexpected car expenses for repairs and I know this woman has little or no money. So I grabbed the 'cash stash' from my wallet and gave it to her. Most recently it was a woman in my Sunday School class who told me of a grandson who lost his home in the flooding. I gave her some of the 'cash stash' to send to him. I gave some to the missionary who stayed with us recently. These gifts aren't big but maybe several hundred dollars and it is money that I consider to not be mine anymore so it accumulates until the Lord brings the need along my path.
Yes, the Lord continues to show me ways of living that cut across my flesh, my 'needs' and to put Him and others in the place that He would have them be.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian greed - 8/22/2008 11:52:58 AM
|
|
|
Liveloved
Posts: 1838
Status: offline
|
quote:
"Christian greed" is an oxymoron of great magnitude.
My point exactly, RC. That's why the question has been raised. We have become so culturally bound, thinking as the world thinks, the Christian world no longer thinks differently. We rationalize, justify, excuse, or blame rather than taking personal responsibility for our actions.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian greed - 8/22/2008 11:55:30 AM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 2972
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
I hurt when I hear someone saying that someone should not have a child if they may face a struggle.
No one says struggle on this thread. We are talking about welfare and the entitlement attitude.
God never told a child of his to go on government welfare.
If a believer has financial problems they are to turn to their family first then the chruch.
God bless the people who "obey" God's word and don't give it lip service and expect "others" to support those children.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian greed - 8/22/2008 12:00:33 PM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 2972
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
Speaking of "hurting our witness"...you bet your sweet bippie it does.
When a working person who takes responsibility for their own choices in life has to give by force a portion of their earning to a Christian that Christian has lost their witness in that person's eyes. Stop stealing from that person and then you can witness to them about how "great" your God is.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian greed - 8/22/2008 12:04:15 PM
|
|
|
Little_1
Posts: 1455
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
I hurt when I hear someone saying that someone should not have a child if they may face a struggle.
No one says struggle on this thread. We are talking about welfare and the entitlement attitude.
God never told a child of his to go on government welfare.
If a believer has financial problems they are to turn to their family first then the chruch.
God bless the people who "obey" God's word and don't give it lip service and expect "others" to support those children.
and what if their family cannot help because they too don't have much money? What if their church turn them down?
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian greed - 8/22/2008 12:18:09 PM
|
|
|
Liveloved
Posts: 1838
Status: offline
|
First, I want to respond by saying that yes we are to help our brothers and sisters, our family members, and strangers (who really are our 'neighbors'). One of the reasons our country is in the position it is now in is because of OUR OWN GREED and UNWILLINGNESS to share and live as God has commanded us to live. And we must accept that and confess our wrongdoing.
Secondly, we need to acknowledge that we live THOUGHTLESSLY. If you will remember back to the quote of the Apostle Paul in his letter to the Thessalonians, he said, "For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example, because we did not act in an undisciplined manner among you. . .". That is living intentionally, thoughtfully, and purposefully.
The example I gave is of people who are making deliberate, intentional and willful choices that includes making taxpayers responsible for a majority of their child expense. I know these families personally. And they have chosen to continue to have children unconcerned about who is paying for them. It is an entitlement kind of thinking that is not of God at all.
That does not mean that people such as debi's son, for example, don't have times or situations when they genuinely need some help. And that help should be there.
This thread is not about how I feel about these things. My feelings need to be put under the control of the Spirit, and put to death.
This thread is about what God says regarding how we are to live. I'm just asking people to THINK about what God says. And as we can see by various responses, we are quick to defend and justify rather than listen, think and ponder.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian greed - 8/22/2008 12:23:33 PM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 2972
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
and what if their family cannot help because they too don't have much money? What if their church turn them down?
Find me those people. I want to meet them.
I would be more than happy to give them some guidance or have a member of their church go to "each of their homes" and show them how with combined resources they "can" provide for themselves and a child or two.
I also don't mind helping chruch set up benevolance programs to help those who are in need within their fellowship and community.
(It's part of the family breakdown and sin that has families not providing for their own, that attitude spreads to the chruch)
One reason people won't go to their families or their chruch is because they don't want to be held accountable for the way inwhich they conduct their lives.
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/22/2008 12:38:14 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian greed - 8/22/2008 2:18:42 PM
|
|
|
P31W
Posts: 2972
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
Gosh! Maybe you could sell tickets to that perfect little world you live in.
What I have discribed is a family who has a biblical worldview.
We teach and live biblical principles in our home. God gave us those principles for our good and our family is benefiting from being obedient to those principles and respecting God enough to take them very serious.
For you it may be a fairytale but for us it's our lifestyle. One that is taught to us by God in His Word.
I love to read and study the proverbs because it contains wisdom in how to live our practical lives. I read one proverb for each day of the month.
Today is the 22nd and this is the 22nd chapter of proverbs.
Proverbs 22 - Study This Chapter
1 A good name is more desirable than great riches; to be esteemed is better than silver or gold.
2 Rich and poor have this in common: The Lord is the Maker of them all.
3 A prudent man sees danger and takes refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it.
4 Humility and the fear of the Lord bring wealth and honor and life.
5 In the paths of the wicked lie thorns and snares, but he who guards his soul stays far from them.
6 Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not turn from it.
7 The rich rule over the poor, and the borrower is servant to the lender.
8 He who sows wickedness reaps trouble, and the rod of his fury will be destroyed.
9 A generous man will himself be blessed, for he shares his food with the poor.
10 Drive out the mocker, and out goes strife; quarrels and insults are ended.
11 He who loves a pure heart and whose speech is gracious will have the king for his friend.
13 The sluggard says, "There is a lion outside!" or, "I will be murdered in the streets!"
15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far from him.
16 He who oppresses the poor to increase his wealth and he who gives gifts to the rich--both come to poverty.
20 Have I not written thirty sayings for you, sayings of counsel and knowledge, 21 teaching you true and reliable words, so that you can give sound answers to him who sent you?
22 Do not exploit the poor because they are poor and do not crush the needy in court, 23 for the Lord will take up their case and will plunder those who plunder them.
24 Do not make friends with a hot-tempered man, do not associate with one easily angered, 25 or you may learn his ways and get yourself ensnared.
26 Do not be a man who strikes hands in pledge or puts up security for debts; 27 if you lack the means to pay, your very bed will be snatched from under you.
29 Do you see a man skilled in his work? He will serve before kings; he will not serve before obscure men.
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/22/2008 2:26:23 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian greed - 8/22/2008 2:27:15 PM
|
|
|
ta_mosquito
Posts: 11460
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
Status: offline
|
MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
I'm in the process of removing several posts for harassing other posters and/or disrupting conversation.
If you cannot participate in this thread without putting down others, then please do not post. If you cannot participate in this thread without taking things personally and getting your knickers in a knot, then please do not post.
One big rule of thumb in the forums: if you don't want your family or personal situation criticized, do not use them as an example because someone WILL say something that will look like criticism.
A second rule of thumb: don't ask questions you may not like the answers to.
I'll send out PM's to the people whose posts I'm deleting. From now on, post nice.
Tricia
Forums Moderator
Please do not reply to this message within the forums or chat.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
< Message edited by ta_mosquito -- 8/22/2008 2:33:23 PM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian greed - 8/22/2008 2:50:43 PM
|
|
|
rcjames
Posts: 5576
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
|
If a person is a greedy person then they are serving the flesh and not serving God.
Christ said;
(Luk 6:46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Greed is one of the seven deadly sins.and declared an iniquity in many places in our beloved Bible. Jesus said;
(Mat 7:20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
(Mat 7:21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(Mat 7:22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(Mat 7:23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
So obiously those that work iniquity are not "Chrisitans) even if they think they are.
So "Christian Greed" is an oxymoron.
Greedy folks are not Christians and are not going to heaven; period.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian greed - 8/22/2008 3:36:20 PM
|
|
|
zoebob
Posts: 8778
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
Status: online
|
For those of you who are opposed to all government assistance what would you recommend of someone who has a sudden change in circumstances so that they are in temporary need of assistance while they get back on their feet again: such as through job loss, sudden disability, etc. if their family and/or church are unable or unwilling to help.
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian greed - 8/22/2008 3:59:50 PM
|
|
|
pstrdebi
Posts: 739
Joined: 4/28/2008
From: So. Oregon, by way of So. Cal.
Status: offline
|
Just a side note:
I am not ashamed or afraid to mention my family in my posts. I am proud of them, who they are and what they have accomplished.
My son is 24 and has been working since the day he turned 14. He is a loyal and faithful worker, giving more hours whenever needed, doesn't call in sick, and never slacks in his work. He is a Christian, and has been since he received Christ at 5 years old. He has served God all his life, volunteering in church and outside of church. His wife is a beautiful young woman who received Christ and was baptised when they began dating, and has faithfully sought God every day since. She worked up until a week before giving birth to Jonah... and they are raising him in a Christian home. (He loves to worship!)
I would implore those who think government help is wrong and un-Christian, to check out the following articles, one found right here on Crosswalk:
http://www.crosswalk.com/finances/507392/
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F00E7DD1F39F93BA35751C1A963958260
My kids are not on welfare. They had help with their hospital bill through the county.
Should they have waited. Why? What is done is done. That doesn't negate the fact that my son is a hard working young man... and if we were able to help pay the bill, we would have.
And Jonah is a wonderful 1 1/2 year old. I wouldn't have changed things for the life of me! Is that greed? Not in this grammie's eyes.
_____________________________
"For in Him we live and move and have our being..." Acts 17:28a
http://www.therockfellowship.org
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian greed - 8/22/2008 4:18:52 PM
|
|
|
Little_1
Posts: 1455
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: pstrdebi
......I would implore those who think government help is wrong and un-Christian, to check out the following articles, one found right here on Crosswalk:
http://www.crosswalk.com/finances/507392/
I read this article which is on Crosswalk and found it very helpful.
_____________________________
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian greed - 8/22/2008 5:27:51 PM
|
|
|
Liveloved
Posts: 1838
Status: offline
|
quote:
Should they have waited. Why? What is done is done. That doesn't negate the fact that my son is a hard working young man... and if we were able to help pay the bill, we would have.
Debi (et al),
What you have described regarding your son's need is exactly why we do need programs of this type. Medical bills are outrageous today and young kids with minimal incomes can't afford them. That is not greed nor is that what this thread is about.
I quoted you above because of one statement you made---"if we were able to help pay the bill, we would have." Most do not have attitudes like this today. Therein lies part of our problem. People do not have a generous spirit. They think what they have belongs to them. So grown children or parents transfer their assets so that the taxpayer's money is supporting them in old age instead of using their money to support themselves. And they think this is OK. And they doesn't recognize that this is NOT how a Christian is to live. Or they spend all their money on travel or houses, movies and televisions, entertainment and athletics and save nothing for retirement or for emergencies. This is greed.
My father was a farmer and he told me that he had worked his lifetime to provide for himself and his family and that the farm would pay for his expenses until there was no money left. That farm, though worth alot, was not to go to his children's bank accounts. That is a godly attitude and the way we are to live.
My husband and I were self employed until a year ago and we had to pay a HUGE amount for high deductible medical insurance and medical care. I am thankful the Lord provided it for us. But we believe God calls us to live in ways that we can afford to care for our own needs.
Yet these families that I was referring to are paying NOTHING. One of them even had a child in the hospital a number of years ago and they paid NOTHING. And the child even remained in the hospital an extra day because they had a childcare issue. They did not care that this bill was costing someone (the American hardworking taxpayer) a HUGE amount. All they thought of was themselves. And the families I am referring to are on limited income by their choice---and their participation in the state's insurance program is a deliberate way to put the burden on the taxpayer rather than on themselves. They consider themselves savvy businessmen. I think it is ungodly.
That is greed. And our country has perpetuated it. And Christians are participating in it.
I could have put 'Christian' in quotes because like RC has pointed out, Christians do not live this way. But many who say they are do. Will most of those who call themselves by Christ's name not be found in heaven?
It is one of the reasons I post the questions that I do. I take seriously the things the Lord is teaching me. And I want to encourage others to do the same.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian greed - 8/22/2008 6:14:52 PM
|
|
|
sparkleingsnow
Posts: 3767
Joined: 1/9/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
Original: rcjames
So obiously those that work iniquity are not "Chrisitans) even if they think they are.
quote:
Original: Liveloved
I could have put 'Christian' in quotes because like RC has pointed out, Christians do not live this way. But many who say they are do. Will most of those who call themselves by Christ's name not be found in heaven?
!?! I know there is a verse that tells us not to question someone elses salvation. But for now the verse, judge not ... comes to mind.
_____________________________
Bless the Lord, O my soul: and all that is
within me, bless his holy name.
Psalm 103:1
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Christian greed - 8/22/2008 6:35:10 PM
|
|
|
zoebob
Posts: 8778
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: land of limbo
Status: online
|
Actually, the verse is "judge not lest you be judged" If you are willing to be judged by the standard you are imposing on others it is OK. We are supposed to hold Christians accountable.
Now putting on my moderator hat:
Questioning the salvation of other forums members is a TOS. Just a gentle nudge.
_____________________________
L-R: DD1, Ellies DS2, DD2, Ellies DS1
L-R: Ellies DD1, Ellies DD2, DS, Ellies DS3
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
