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RE: Special "Children's" Section on Planes... - 8/17/2008 11:46:15 AM
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Jenny-Fair
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Not all women and babies are the same, though, and it's really during latching on that the problem occurs--you really do have to be able to see your nipple in order to properly latch the baby on. Once the baby is latched, there really is nothing to see, and if you put a blanket over a baby that doesn't like it, THEN you get trouble!
Most cultures are actually ok with seeing breasts, you know. And being prudish about breastfeeding while ogling the women on the cover of men's magazines is hypocrisy unique to our culture.
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RE: Special "Children's" Section on Planes... - 8/17/2008 11:48:40 AM
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clag4christ
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quote:
Most cultures are actually ok with seeing breasts, you know. And being prudish about breastfeeding while ogling the women on the cover of men's magazines is hypocrisy unique to our culture.
Indeed...I find it's very common for people to freak out about a woman giving her child the milk that God has provided for him/her in the recepticle that He's provided than to freak out about Victoria Secret commercials or billboards or advertising in the mall...
But this isn't a breastfeeding debate thread...it's about airline's and their desire to put families with young children in a holding pen...
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RE: Special "Children's" Section on Planes... - 8/17/2008 11:49:07 AM
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lw9
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Let me get this straight. It's not okay to expose a breast when you don't have children because that would be immodest, but it is okay to expose a breast when you do have children because then it's magically not immodest. Right... got it.
Women can cover up with no harm or trouble whatsoever to the baby. I've seen it done and know women who have done it with absolutely no trouble at all. Some simply choose to not cover up.
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RE: Special "Children's" Section on Planes... - 8/17/2008 11:50:31 AM
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clag4christ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
Let me get this straight. It's not okay to expose a breast when you don't have children because that would be immodest, but it is okay to expose a breast when you do have children because then it's magically not immodest. Right... got it.
Women can cover up with no harm or trouble whatsoever to the baby. I've seen it done and know women who have done it with absolutely no trouble at all. Some simply choose to not cover up.
Again this is not a breastfeeding debate thread...if you've got a problem with the way God designed women's bodies to feed our babies then maybe you should take that up with Him through prayer...
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<-----Jael as Tinkerbell - Halloween 2008
If you don't want people to insult your intelligence; don't make it so obvious that you have none.
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RE: Special "Children's" Section on Planes... - 8/17/2008 11:52:07 AM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
Let me get this straight. It's not okay to expose a breast when you don't have children because that would be immodest, but it is okay to expose a breast when you do have children because then it's magically not immodest. Right... got it.
You're being deliberately dense, I think. Going topless for the sake of attracting men is completely difference then temporarily exposing yourself to feed your child. One is sexual in nature, one is not. Are you unable to see the difference in the two acts?
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RE: Special "Children's" Section on Planes... - 8/17/2008 11:56:51 AM
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clag4christ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
Let me get this straight. It's not okay to expose a breast when you don't have children because that would be immodest, but it is okay to expose a breast when you do have children because then it's magically not immodest. Right... got it.
You're being deliberately dense, I think. Going topless for the sake of attracting men is completely difference then temporarily exposing yourself to feed your child. One is sexual in nature, one is not. Are you unable to see the difference in the two acts?
I think you've stated it very well Sideways...
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If you don't want people to insult your intelligence; don't make it so obvious that you have none.
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RE: Special "Children's" Section on Planes... - 8/17/2008 12:04:46 PM
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lw9
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I didn't send the thread off into the breastfeeding direction, but it does seem to me to tie in with the discussion of separate family sections on airplanes and why that would be a good or a bad idea. I'm noticing that a few of you seem to want to have the last word and then hush everyone else up on this matter.
quote:
And I cannot believe you are comparing breastfeeding to urinating. That is beyond disgusting, and a totally inappropriate analogy for a number of reasons.
No, not inappropriate at all. The line of reasoning put forth is that breast feeding is a natural thing, which I don't deny one bit, but so is urinating. Urinating isn't disgusting. It's natural, remember?? If natural functions are going to be dragged into this debate, then at least be fair and recognize them all.
Modesty. It's really not that difficult of a concept and should span ALL of our natural functions whenever possible. A crowded plane is no exception. If parents are going to do things with no regard for the person sitting inches next to them, whether that's exposing themselves or allowing their children to run rampant, then perhaps a separate family section isn't such a bad idea after all.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 8/17/2008 12:10:49 PM >
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RE: Special "Children's" Section on Planes... - 8/17/2008 12:11:03 PM
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clag4christ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
I didn't send the thread off into the breastfeeding direction, but it does seem to me to tie in with the discussion of separate family sections on airplanes and why that would be a good or a bad idea. I'm noticing that a few of you seem to want to have the last word and then hush everyone else up on this matter.
quote:
And I cannot believe you are comparing breastfeeding to urinating. That is beyond disgusting, and a totally inappropriate analogy for a number of reasons.
No, not inappropriate at all. The line of reasoning put forth is that breast feeding is a natural thing, which I don't deny one bit, but so is urinating. Urinating isn't disgusting. It's natural, remember?? If natural functions are going to be dragged into this debate, then at least be fair and recognize them all.
Modesty. It's really not that difficult of a concept and should span ALL of our natural functions whenever possible. A crowded plane is no exception.
I didn't say anything like, "Breastfeeding is natural"...I said it's food...going to the bathroom is not feeding or sustaining anyone...thus the logic breaks down...and the analogy isn't appropriate.
Again, if you've got a problem with the way that God created the female body to provide food for our children, from our own bodies, then you should seriously and prayerfully take that to Him...if God isn't 'grossed out' by it, why should you be?
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<-----Jael as Tinkerbell - Halloween 2008
If you don't want people to insult your intelligence; don't make it so obvious that you have none.
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RE: Special "Children's" Section on Planes... - 8/17/2008 12:18:06 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
Modesty. It's really not that difficult of a concept and should span ALL of our natural functions whenever possible.
Well, you've just hit the nail on the head. Whenever possible. If you get flashed for a second because a woman is struggling with an infant trying to latch on, then that is hardly the fault of the woman.
If a baby doesn't like having a blanket on his head while he eats (and you still haven't said that you would like to eat that way), then that is hardly the fault of the woman.
Most breastfeeding moms do take reasonable modesty precautions, although using a blanket is not always reasonable under certain circumstances. It is extremely rare to find a woman who is deliberately making more of a public show then is absolutely necessary. Although most men seem to find these rare exceptions quite memorable.
Perhaps you should work on cleaning up your own mind, rather then harassing innocent women just trying to feed their babies?
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RE: Special "Children's" Section on Planes... - 8/17/2008 12:21:47 PM
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clag4christ
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quote:
Perhaps you should work on cleaning up your own mind, rather then harassing innocent women just trying to feed their babies?
I agree...
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RE: Special "Children's" Section on Planes... - 8/17/2008 12:27:49 PM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
Modesty. It's really not that difficult of a concept and should span ALL of our natural functions whenever possible. A crowded plane is no exception. If parents are going to do things with no regard for the person sitting inches next to them, whether that's exposing themselves or allowing their children to run rampant, then perhaps a separate family section isn't such a bad idea after all.
I think part of the problem is that people see this differently...and of course, many of us have run into the immodest women who think they can breastfeed any way they want to in public (I realize that many think this way, but I don't). Every once in a while there's some kind of breastfeeding disagreement here, but it always ends in every individual thinking/feeling that they are right morally. I can understand people's wanting to breastfeed; I can understand how people are highly uncomfortable however. The breastfeeders want their way; the ones who are highly uncomfortable want their way. Any one way of doing anything will make the other group unhappy and jilted-feeling.
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RE: Special "Children's" Section on Planes... - 8/17/2008 12:29:20 PM
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garsyt
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With the attitudes I've read here with regards to dealing with children traveling by plane, I must say I'm VERY happy that we only taken that one trip by plane prior to the births of my youngest three children. Traveling by car seems to suit us just fine as we only have to deal with each other.
I have VERY well behaved children for the most part. They do have their moments however. Having to sit perfectly still and totally silent for 2 full hours as to not garner a nasty glare from a nearby adult would be IMPOSSIBLE. Yet that's what I'm thinking those that are most in favor of this separate section for families are looking for.
Blessings,
Garsy
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RE: Special "Children's" Section on Planes... - 8/17/2008 12:32:53 PM
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clag4christ
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quote:
The breastfeeders want their way;
It's not about 'our way'. It's about feeding our children. Plain and simple.
quote:
With the attitudes I've read here with regards to dealing with children traveling by plane, I must say I'm VERY happy that we only taken that one trip by plane prior to the births of my youngest three children. Traveling by car seems to suit us just fine as we only have to deal with each other.
I have VERY well behaved children for the most part. They do have their moments however. Having to sit perfectly still and totally silent for 2 full hours as to not garner a nasty glare from a nearby adult would be IMPOSSIBLE. Yet that's what I'm thinking those that are most in favor of this separate section for families are looking for.
Blessings,
Garsy
I think you're right...
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RE: Special "Children's" Section on Planes... - 8/17/2008 12:36:04 PM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
Let me get this straight. It's not okay to expose a breast when you don't have children because that would be immodest, but it is okay to expose a breast when you do have children because then it's magically not immodest. Right... got it.
That's what gets a lot of people. I've run into many a people who have been flashed by a breastfeeeding mom, but they found it inappropriate (the woman usually doesn't think so, because they were attempting to do something good). Although I think it's not purposeful most of the time, I think there should be guidelines to try to keep it from happening in public. If were were in one of those countries where exposed breasts were accepted non-sexually (like in some African nations), that'd be fine. America is not one of those nations, and I think that's what upsets some women. My opinion; I already know people don't agree. :) We could always try to change America as a whole and de-sexualize breasts though (for every purpose they have, even good things for babies). Good luck with that. I think this is just the culture here-- good or bad, we're in it.
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RE: Special "Children's" Section on Planes... - 8/17/2008 12:39:11 PM
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clag4christ
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quote:
or feed by bottle when someone is sitting inches from you such as on a plane. That would be a good compromise on your part... but I know... too much to ask.
Apparently you don't know much about breatfeeding...let me educate you a little bit. (1) Some women cannot pump a bottle and shouldn't be made to because your delicate sensibilities might be rattled by breastfeeding. (2) Lactating breasts are an 'on demand' thing...should we not require them to produce milk for a meal (like on a plane) and instead give a bottle, some women's bodies, like mine, for example, will get the signal not to make milk at all at that time (yes, simply from missing one feeding). So...I apparently should sacrifice my child's welfare for your squeamishmess? I don't think so...
quote:
I've run into many a people who have been flashed by a breastfeeeding mom, but they found it inappropriate (the woman usually doesn't think so, because they were attempting to do something good).
Again, if someone has a problem with a woman feeding her child in the way that God intended and provided for then he/she should go to Him about it. It's not offensive to feed a child...
And AGAIN, this is not a breastfeeding debate thread...if ya'll want to debate the merits of children growing strong and up by eating from the breast then by all means, go right ahead, but as the OP I'd appreciate if you take your debate elsewhere...
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RE: Special "Children's" Section on Planes... - 8/17/2008 12:45:07 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
That would be a good compromise on your part... but I know... too much to ask.
And why is it asking to much to ask YOU to LOOK THE OTHER WAY? Why are you so fascinated by a woman feeding her baby?
My son refused a bottle, so your "compromise" would not have worked. Even women who don't use blankets at least have their shirt covering the breast area, and the baby's head is covering the rest. The only time that isn't true is during latch on, and seriously, you can't look across the aisle for 30 seconds. That's why I think it's your sexual issues that need to be dealt with, not the nursing mom.
Okay, okay. I will bow to Clag's request and stop debating breastfeeding in public, though it does seem like a rather key point to having babies on planes (and a separate section for them). Nowhere else are we as trapped with other people as we are on a plane. We aren't seated at a different table, we can't cross to a different part of the mall. We're stuck, and emotions run very high under such stressful circumstances.
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RE: Special "Children's" Section on Planes... - 8/17/2008 1:04:20 PM
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lw9
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Since I'm being accused here of being 'fascinated', having an 'unclean mind' and 'sexual issues', I have the right to set the record straight and defend myself.
quote:
Sideways: And why is it asking to much to ask YOU to LOOK THE OTHER WAY? Why are you so fascinated by a woman feeding her baby? That's why I think it's your sexual issues that need to be dealt with, not the nursing mom.
You assume way too much. Rather than deal with my responses like a reasonable adult, you've chosen to take the easy way out and twist this around to falsely accuse me of perversion because I disagree with you. Nice.
I'm a woman and have no fascination whatsoever with seeing your breasts. In fact, I DO NOT want to see your breast or any other woman's breast for that matter, but in many situations women have whipped it out without warning and I had no chance to even look away. It's rude beyond belief.
This goes right back to the 'no compromise' issue where some of you feel you have the right to whip your breasts out anywhere without covering, warning, or asking those around you, but then you turn around and accuse those around you of having 'sexual issues' because they were caught off-guard and were accidentally looking your way at the time. It's absolutely ridiculous and shows a clear disregard and lack of respect for others.
Note - I accidentally deleted one of my previous posts, so here's the gist of what it said:
And this is what cracks me up... there is no compromise with some of you. I have never told anyone not to breast feed. Breast feed whenever you like. I personally would prefer it if women were more private about it, but I'm more than willing to compromise my personal preferences for the comfort and convenience of mothers.
Where's your compromise? It's not there. It's 'me, me, me'. All I'm asking is that you cover up when you do breast feed. If your baby happens to be one of the few that absolutely will not feed while covered, then perhaps feed by bottle when someone is sitting inches from you such as on a plane. That would be a good compromise on your part... but I know... too much to ask.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 8/17/2008 2:43:20 PM >
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RE: Special "Children's" Section on Planes... - 8/17/2008 1:34:35 PM
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SonInMe1
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quote:
It's a form of nourishment and sustinance for my child.
...and there are no other forms of nourishment for your baby in an enclosed very close quartered arena?
quote:
Is it anymore innapropriate to 'whip out' your sandwich for lunch?
Do you know how many billions of dollars are spent to see a naked breast? You realize the breats is not just a lunch sack correct....and you also, as a christian, MUST not do something that would cause another to stumble...correct?
I would feel extremely uncomfortable with a lady breastfeeding next to me in an airplane. As you have said, these sessions can last a fairly long time...I think you said twenty minutes...and then during lift off and landing?
I think...that is too much to ask someone to "look the other way".
IF...you truly have to fly with such a young baby ( we seldom left the house with a three month old baby ) is there no other way you can feed your child on a plane?
Bathrooms are not anymore dirty or unsanitary than the seat you sit on during the flight. If you can sit in those cramped seats and feed your baby then you can do it in the bathroom too.
quote:
If you get flashed for a second because a woman is struggling with an infant trying to latch on, then that is hardly the fault of the woman.
In fact, yes it is.
As someone who was raised on a dairy farm I understand quite well what lactation is. I would say an udder ( breast ) drying up after missing one feeding to be an extremely rare circumstance.
While as a mother you may view your breasts as lunch sacks, I would say the majority of men do not. The bible does not either. Clearly in Proverbs 5:19 the breast is viewed as a vehicle of pleasure.
Breast feeding is a choice. Forcing it upon others to me would be rude. To do so in an enviroment where there is no "escape" exceedingly so.
By the tone expressed by the women here who have done this activity, I guess the sensibilities of others is not your concern.
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RE: Special "Children's" Section on Planes... - 8/17/2008 1:49:22 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
It's a form of nourishment and sustinance for my child.
...and there are no other forms of nourishment for your baby in an enclosed very close quartered arena?
Considering my son refused a bottle? Yup. It's not a choice, it's God's provision for feeding infants. Believe me, I didn't do it for kicks. And once the baby is latched on, you can look then, 'cause you won't see anything.
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RE: Special "Children's" Section on Planes... - 8/17/2008 2:38:37 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
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It sounds to me like the whole breastfeeding argument is (although unintentionally), making a good argument FOR separate children/family sections. That way, moms could breastfeed in peace, and those traveling without children wouldn't have to be exposed to seeing any breasts, especially if the set up was made that the other people didn't have to walk past the children's area to use the restroom, either by having two restrooms or having the children's area in front.
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That is beyond disgusting, and a totally inappropriate analogy for a number of reasons.
