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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 11:30:15 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7877
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Gossip? MCCAIN HIMSELF admitted to his adultrous affairs, including with Cindy. MCCAIN HIMSELF admits to signing his 'war crimes' confession.
How is what MCCAIN HIMSELF acknowledges 'gossip'? Is this some new definition dreamed up by reality-spinning Republicans to allow them to refuse to acknowledge the facts?
First off, you listed three things. Secondly, while McCain has admitted fault in the failure of his first marriage, nowhere is there a discussion about 'adultery'. I am not saying it didn't happen (it may very well have) but it's not something that has been publicly discussed.
And I am not sure you could call being tortured into a 'confession' is particularly cooperative with one's enemies - and as we know, there are numerous occasions where he refused to cooperate, even undermined, his captives intents.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 11:30:48 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 1217
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
This is a POLITICAL debate, not a religious one
WHY IS IT SO IMPORTANT?
Now we are getting somewhere. This is EXACTLY why it is important. I happen to be a Christian who is averse to the dualsim you just demonstrated. By dualism, I mean seeing the world as divided into sacred and secular, divine and mundane. You believe that "religion" has nothing to do with politics. I believe that faith has something to do with every aspect of life, and I cannot separate my faith from those aspects. My Christian faith informs how I conduct myself as a husband, as a father, as an employee, as a driver, as a video gamer, and how I politik. My belief in Christ and His word the Bible, my "religion", is a part of everything I do.
You divide religion into its own compartment that doesn't effect the other compartments. This is a fundamental difference between us, and doesn't lend itself to me going into any great detail in order to answer your queries, because they won't make any sense to you.
As for the universal wickedness that Jack mentioned, while I agree with him in a general sense (All have sinned, as written in Romans) I would also make an argument that some are more wicked than others, and that Christians should easily be able to discern good fruit from bad, and in fact are CALLED to do so.
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 1:24:18 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Gossip? MCCAIN HIMSELF admitted to his adultrous affairs, including with Cindy. MCCAIN HIMSELF admits to signing his 'war crimes' confession.
How is what MCCAIN HIMSELF acknowledges 'gossip'? Is this some new definition dreamed up by reality-spinning Republicans to allow them to refuse to acknowledge the facts?
First off, you listed three things. Secondly, while McCain has admitted fault in the failure of his first marriage, nowhere is there a discussion about 'adultery'. I am not saying it didn't happen (it may very well have) but it's not something that has been publicly discussed.
And I am not sure you could call being tortured into a 'confession' is particularly cooperative with one's enemies - and as we know, there are numerous occasions where he refused to cooperate, even undermined, his captives intents.
Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 1:26:27 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
This is a POLITICAL debate, not a religious one
WHY IS IT SO IMPORTANT?
Now we are getting somewhere. This is EXACTLY why it is important. I happen to be a Christian who is averse to the dualsim you just demonstrated. By dualism, I mean seeing the world as divided into sacred and secular, divine and mundane. You believe that "religion" has nothing to do with politics. I believe that faith has something to do with every aspect of life, and I cannot separate my faith from those aspects. My Christian faith informs how I conduct myself as a husband, as a father, as an employee, as a driver, as a video gamer, and how I politik. My belief in Christ and His word the Bible, my "religion", is a part of everything I do.
You divide religion into its own compartment that doesn't effect the other compartments. This is a fundamental difference between us, and doesn't lend itself to me going into any great detail in order to answer your queries, because they won't make any sense to you.
As for the universal wickedness that Jack mentioned, while I agree with him in a general sense (All have sinned, as written in Romans) I would also make an argument that some are more wicked than others, and that Christians should easily be able to discern good fruit from bad, and in fact are CALLED to do so.
I think any sort of rational observer would note that you are jumping to conclusions based on insufficient data - making assumptions - and then leaping to a fautly conclusion based on the fantasy reality you have created for yourself.
I have forwarded your personal attack to the administrator and would be very interested in any explanation of how it does not violate a whole raft of TOS, especially 5, 6, and 9, and specifically the following passage from 6:
"- Attacking the character or motives of someone who differs with your view or denying that he or she is a Christian is unacceptable. "
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 1:45:24 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7877
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
Well, when political opponents only have rumor and innuendo, I don't think denial is neccesary.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 1:48:27 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
LOL! LOL! RMBAOTF.
Tonio, could you help Granma off the floor!
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 1:50:09 PM
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huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
Status: offline
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^^^^wow...you said that he personally attacked you, yet i see no personal attack...if anything you are making false accusations and deserve to be kicked off since you are making things hostile...
"- Attacking the character or motives of someone who differs with your view or denying that he or she is a Christian is unacceptable. "
how about you explain how he attacked you, using quotes from a previous posts without just saying one thing and explaining anything and making a mockery of yourself and himself....
better yet, bring on the mods!!! justice always wins in the end anyway...and i guarantee you won't like their decision...
_____________________________
"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 2:44:03 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 2152
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: online
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quote:
I have forwarded your personal attack to the administrator and would be very interested in any explanation of how it does not violate a whole raft of TOS,
Where's the personal attack to which you refer? Because it seems to have eluded the rest of us....
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 2:52:36 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Denial is not just a river in Egypt.
Well, when political opponents only have rumor and innuendo, I don't think denial is neccesary.
As already pointed out and as you have accepted, McCain himself verifies the 'rumor and gossip'. End of dicussion - you are into the realm of delibrate denial.
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 3:22:50 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7877
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
As already pointed out and as you have accepted, McCain himself verifies the 'rumor and gossip'. End of dicussion - you are into the realm of delibrate denial.
Actually, as I have pointed out, McCain has never discussed some of what you said, and the rest is your opinion. There isn't much there to deny, although there is the noticable fact that you have run out of reasons to actually vote for Obama (presumably because of his failure Sat. night), and so are resorting to trying to slime McCain.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 3:36:16 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
^^^^wow...you said that he personally attacked you, yet i see no personal attack...if anything you are making false accusations and deserve to be kicked off since you are making things hostile...
"- Attacking the character or motives of someone who differs with your view or denying that he or she is a Christian is unacceptable. "
how about you explain how he attacked you, using quotes from a previous posts without just saying one thing and explaining anything and making a mockery of yourself and himself....
better yet, bring on the mods!!! justice always wins in the end anyway...and i guarantee you won't like their decision...
quote:
You divide religion into its own compartment that doesn't effect the other compartments
"You divide religion into its own compartment that doesn't effect the other compartments"
...is clearly "attacking the character or motives of somone who differs" with his view. One might also make the case that he is claiming I am no Christian. Frankly, I don;t care baout his position on the latter one way or the other - it is none of his business in the first place.
But BOTH attacks are clear violations of TOS, and as one who has been charged with TOS violations myself - and the accusers know who they are - i don't intend to sit back and let someone else make false statements about me.
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 4:01:36 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
I would like to see some proof of the claims myself.
http://www.usvetdsp.com/mcaindiv.htm
Google "mccain divorce adultery" and enjoy some of the 311000 hits, of which this was just the first.
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 4:09:33 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7877
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Google "mccain divorce adultery" and enjoy some of the 311000 hits, of which this was just the first.
I am always fascinated that as a person who claims to be amenable to logic, you would use number of google hits as evidence of your statement. I mean, there are over 2 million hits for 'bigfoot is real' - shall we conclude from that it is certain that bigfoot is real?
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 8:02:12 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5388
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
Your pardon, i did not see the earlier part of your answer. Still not used to the various nuances of the formating on this Board.
No problem...
quote:
Okay, if you're going to make an issue on which American law is settled and accepted by the overwhelming majority of the nation your litmus test - it does seem to be the only issue of concern to soi-disant eveangelical Christians - then go ahead. You'll get Obama elected at worst, and at best, get the luke-warm McCain into office.
I am not making anything an "issue"... The bible is clear on theses matters... You asked for support for for claiming Mr. Obama is wicked... It was given... Your first line of defense is to play the secular card... Ok... Mr. Obama isn't wicked according to man's law... Yippe... Next you attempt to play down the "wickedness" by acting like only this strange group in the Christian community believes it's an issue of concern... Ok... Just how does that defend Mr Obama's actions? It doesn't... Your comment about getting whomever elected of course doesn't even remotely relate to the question at hand...
quote:
As to the 'homosexual agenda' - civil rights, CONSTITUTIONAL rights for Americans, including equal treatment under the law, is not subject to debate, nor is it your slightest concern nor that of anyone else who decides that someone else's private behavior somehow affects YOUR private behavior.
Again, the secular card... It must be noted that you have not dealt with the sinful aspects of the behavior(s) in question and have apparently based your argument on the idea that rights granted by man somehow trumps what is right in the sight of God... Of course this doesn't remove what is or isn't sinful and or wicked according to God's word, which is the supreme law over everyone, and even more so over those who claim Christ...
quote:
Enjoy the full glass you have, if you do - do not deny other's their full glass.
Mr. Obama can be as evil as he so chooses... Other than his desire to support the murder of the unborn, which denies others more than their full glass he can do as he so chooses... Though since the man as well claims to follow Christ that opens the door for him to be called on his actions...
John
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 8:19:20 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5388
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
Care to answer the question of 'wickedness' now? How is McCain NOT wicked by biblical standards, being an adulterer, an oath-breaker, and a thief?
When did biblical standards come into the picture? You ignored the bible regarding Mr. Obama's continual wicked behavor...
Simple... One can repent of singular acts, but how does one who continually supports that which is evil repent? Do you believe Mr Obama can repent of his support for abortion and the homosexual agenda daily only to support it the next?
John
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 8:25:05 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5388
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
And why can't you debate without knowing whether I am a Christian or not? This is a POLITICAL debate, not a religious one -
It's only secular only debate for those who wish it to be. I for one cannot see how I can separate the two(or anything else for that matter), or what is or isn't right in the sight of God in regards to anything in my life... Especially since God is rather clear that it's all or nothing... Lukewarm doesn't work for Him... One cannot serve two masters...
John
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 8:25:06 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 1217
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
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tuskarine, tafkam, and WesP: Thanks for pointing out the truth.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
This is a POLITICAL debate, not a religious one
WHY IS IT SO IMPORTANT?
Now we are getting somewhere. This is EXACTLY why it is important. I happen to be a Christian who is averse to the dualsim you just demonstrated. By dualism, I mean seeing the world as divided into sacred and secular, divine and mundane. You believe that "religion" has nothing to do with politics. I believe that faith has something to do with every aspect of life, and I cannot separate my faith from those aspects. My Christian faith informs how I conduct myself as a husband, as a father, as an employee, as a driver, as a video gamer, and how I politik. My belief in Christ and His word the Bible, my "religion", is a part of everything I do.
You divide religion into its own compartment that doesn't effect the other compartments. This is a fundamental difference between us, and doesn't lend itself to me going into any great detail in order to answer your queries, because they won't make any sense to you.
As for the universal wickedness that Jack mentioned, while I agree with him in a general sense (All have sinned, as written in Romans) I would also make an argument that some are more wicked than others, and that Christians should easily be able to discern good fruit from bad, and in fact are CALLED to do so.
I think any sort of rational observer would note that you are jumping to conclusions based on insufficient data - making assumptions - and then leaping to a fautly conclusion based on the fantasy reality you have created for yourself.
I have forwarded your personal attack to the administrator and would be very interested in any explanation of how it does not violate a whole raft of TOS, especially 5, 6, and 9, and specifically the following passage from 6:
"- Attacking the character or motives of someone who differs with your view or denying that he or she is a Christian is unacceptable. "
First, please know that my motive is not to be hostile to anyone personally. Something about the issue of a public declaratgion of core beliefs obviously angered you greatly (what, I don't know), but if you go back and read all of my posts, you will find that there are no personal attacks, nor any claims about your faith or lack thereof except a respectful inquiry as to what they actually are. I asked this because an understanding of the core beliefs of a person with whom one is having a discussion can save a lot of talking in circles. Dennis Prager is fond of saying that he prefers clarity over agreement, and that was my motivation exactly. However, this inquiry you refused to answer, and I was forced to draw conclusions from the posts that were available to me. From a very concise quote of your exact words I concluded that you clearly and plainly divide religion into its own compartment separate from other aspects of life. This is called dualism. I didn't demean you for holding a dualistic worldview, rather I explained that my worldview is quite the opposite and that there would not be much point in furthuring a discussion of what makes a political leader "wicked" if the area from which I draw my conclusions is invalid to you. I never accused you of not being a Christian; in fact, many great Christians since the time of Christ have held a dualistic worldview, from early church fathers to the father of the modern scientific method. It is often actually called "classic dualism" because of the roots of this worldview in classic Greek philosophy concerning the nature of the divine.
That being said, it is a worldview I reject, as I believe that religion and faith has a place in every aspect of life, and I will always biblically argue such if presented the opportunity.
Next, if you still believe in these mythical attacks I leveled against you, you would do well to review posts #80, #94, and #96 which were all ACTUAL personal attacks (leveled against ME). Yes, one of those posts was made by you, and no, I didn't report any of them because they don't really mean much to me. Again, I prefer clarity over agreement.
So, when you type:
quote:
"You divide religion into its own compartment that doesn't effect the other compartments"
...is clearly "attacking the character or motives of somone who differs" with his view. One might also make the case that he is claiming I am no Christian. Frankly, I don;t care baout his position on the latter one way or the other - it is none of his business in the first place.
... you are completely incorrect in your conclusion. You made a plain and straightforward point that you don't believe politics and religion should be mixed. I plainly restated what you stated and explained that because my position was the opposite that any further discussion would most likely be circular. That is what is called having a discussion, not launching an attack.
In conclusion, I would like to offer a bit of wisdom that I have learned from personal experience: if you stop tending to conclude that disagreement is a personal attack and come out from behind your defensive fortifications, you will be amazed at exactly how much you can learn from others and teach them in exchange.
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/19/2008 8:52:08 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1029
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: online
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Also, if I may add, coming out with both guns blazing immediately puts the other party on the defensive. Then, the one-upsmanship like "you didn't answer me to my satisfaction, so you lose. Game, set, match." is going to infuriate people and not result in the kind of discussion we need here. I've backed out of some of this type of exchanges with others just on those grounds. I refuse to be a sounding board for someone's rants.
Let's hope we can all avoid hard feelings and have civil discussions in the future.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
In conclusion, I would like to offer a bit of wisdom that I have learned from personal experience: if you stop tending to conclude that disagreement is a personal attack and come out from behind your defensive fortifications, you will be amazed at exactly how much you can learn from others and teach them in exchange.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Reasons to vote for Barak Obama - 8/23/2008 4:31:46 PM
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its_GO_time
Posts: 221
Status: offline
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Also, according to Joe Biden, he's "clean"
_____________________________
"Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master" - Sallust
<< HOF'er LeRoy Kelly
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