women's rights are sinful? (Full Version)

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fallenstar -> women's rights are sinful? (8/12/2008 9:39:12 PM)

The other day I was speaking to a woman in chatroom, a conservative non-denominational Christian. She said that she wishes that we were still in the times when women just had jobs like nannys and school teachers.

Um, EXCUSE ME!!!!???

"Back in the day", women did'nt have half the rights and respect that men got. If a women wanted to have a decent, well-off life she had to get married. Yes, women could have jobs, but they did'nt pay as much as men's jobs. Nannys and school teachers did'nt make that much money. And what happens if you are the kind of woman who dislikes children? What happens to you then? What about women who are asexual?

I asked her some of the questions above, and she said "I know we have more rights, but back then their was less sinning". I could'nt believe it. What did she mean, less sinning? Treating somebody like a tool because of their gender, ISN'T a sin? Forcing people to get married, ISN'T a sin? I think marriage is about love, not wanting to have sex or making kids, like it was "back in the day".

I know a lot of you are going to disagree, but just think about it. Were things better back then? Do you like what we have now even more? Are you somewhere in between?



isaacsmom -> RE: women's rights are sinful? (8/12/2008 9:45:51 PM)

quote:

"I know we have more rights, but back then their was less sinning".


I completely disagree with her statement here, and I take issue with those who believe that. Sin is sin, people have always been sinful, there is no worse sin today than there was with the children of Israel a few thousand years ago.

I think this thread will probably fall into the one-stop women's roles though, not sure . . . . . . .



Mrs.X -> RE: women's rights are sinful? (8/12/2008 10:46:27 PM)

I think some things were better back then, like all women wearing modest clothing except bar flies of course. But, too much good came of the feminist movement to go back. I like voting, wearing pants, working as a security guard. If I woulda never got married, I'd hate to have to still live with my parents. I like that I have the chance to have almost any job out there if I wanted to. I like the extent that women's rights have gone like being able to breastfeed in public and being able to require a private clean place to pump breasmilk at my job.

What I do wish is that companies would pay more money so more women would be able to stay at home if they wanted to. It seems like that's what it was like in the old days. Boy meets girl. Boy gets job (right out of high school) and marries girl. Boy buys a house and girl has a baby and another one and another one and another one. They live happily ever after on one salary.



Nicole_Michelle -> RE: women's rights are sinful? (8/12/2008 10:55:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: isaacsmom

quote:

"I know we have more rights, but back then their was less sinning".


I completely disagree with her statement here, and I take issue with those who believe that. Sin is sin, people have always been sinful, there is no worse sin today than there was with the children of Israel a few thousand years ago.

I think this thread will probably fall into the one-stop women's roles though, not sure . . . . . . .


There has always been sin. Just tell her to read the bible. [8D] Maybe "back then" it didn't seem like there was as much sin because...

1)There were no tv's or radios so no news
2)No newspapers and if there were there were only a few of them and not everyone got one
3)Maybe people just didn't feel as proud of their sins and they do nowadays so they didn't tell everyone what "bad" things they've done

fallenstar, you will always meet ladies and men who believe what she believed and if they want to believe that then they can go ahead and live in their own little fantasy world. [:D]



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: women's rights are sinful? (8/13/2008 7:35:33 AM)

Well, I am not a feminist except in the most basic sense (men and women are equal in the sight of God) and I do wish more children had their mommies at home with them and that more Christian families had more children. <ducking the tomatoes>

However, that lady was wrong about sin. It may be that some of the things our society struggles with now weren't so much an issue "back in the day" but there was still sin, and plenty of it. Just in different areas.

And truly, just because society pays lipservice to the value of women doesn't mean anything. There are way too many women who are allowing themselves to be treated as if they were meant for nothing more than the pleasure of any "hot" man who wants to sleep with them. [:@] Instead of "baby machines" we're now supposed to be sex kittens, making sure that if we have children at all they don't get in the way of our looks and our sex lives. We have the option of dismembering infants in the womb if they do get in the way.
I have some friends, old schoolmates, who are loud and angry radical feminists. They volunteer at Planned Parenthood and talk nasty about the "oppression" that is conservative Christianity. Yet they dress to catch the eyes of men, they attend drunken party after drunken party, they get stoned and don't even remember half the things they've done, and brag about how many hot guys (the ones they do remember) they've got under their belt.
Personally, I'd rather be barefoot and pregnant and bound for life to my faithful and loving patriarch of a husband. [:D]

Feminism didn't cure or make worse the wretched sinful state of humanity. It just opened up different kinds of sins, not more.



Grace-N-Mercy -> RE: women's rights are sinful? (8/13/2008 7:51:05 AM)

quote:

Personally, I'd rather be barefoot and pregnant and bound for life to my faithful and loving patriarch of a husband.

To be honest, I think a lot of feminists would like this kind of a life, too. My view of feminists has always been that of your friends... angry, demanding, highly vocal of their "rights"... but what I see are people who have been hurt.

Recently, I had the pleasure of going through a 3-day training with a lady who is a staunch feminist... she is a very feminine lady who loves her husband and was a stay-at-home mom for many years... totally not the picture I had. But she stands up for women who have been hurt and brings awareness to the work left to be done.

One thing I think feminism did was go too far in declaring "womens' rights", declaring that women "must" work outside the home and be powerful as opposed to being stay-at-home mommies. At least that's my view and my reason for denouncing feminism. Perhaps this is where your friend is saying it's "sinful".



Sideways -> RE: women's rights are sinful? (8/13/2008 8:54:44 AM)

I've always seen feminism as something in the middle. I don't think it has to be "angry, loud, man-hating sluts" vs "your only choice in life is to marry young and have children".

To me and many normal feminists, it simply means that women have options about attending college, having a career and when they would like to marry and how many children they would like to have. I think the above represents the fringe extreme, something nobody likes to be judged on.

And I agree with the above posters is that there has always been sin; it's all a matter of how much we are aware of it and what type of sins there are. At least in America these days it's legal for a white woman to marry a black man, and it's generally frowned upon for a group of white men to string up a black men for entertainment.



linaire -> RE: women's rights are sinful? (8/17/2008 11:56:28 AM)

I'm one of the "normal" feminists Sideways mentioned. I love that all the campaigning and suffering that past generations of women (and men!) went through have bought me so many rights and priveleges - the right to vote, study, work, and above all choose the path I wish to follow.

However, many of my acquaintance are what I call hyperfeminists....they think that all women should do what they think is the "right" thing - work, turn away from homemaking, childrearing, femininity.... And I disagree. I love that I can choose my path, and I think when hyperfeminists try to dictate what a woman should do they are as good as spitting in the face of the pioneers who sacrificed so much for our good.

I love that I can work in a job that I love, and drive myself around, and heavens knows I appreciate the chance to live away from home (I love my family dearly, but living at home at 27 would be hard for me :)). Women's rights have given me these gifts. However, I know if and when I marry, if I have children I would love to be home for them. And that's my (and my future husbands) choice. Likewise, I have girlfriends who have chosen to stay single and childless, and I admire the beautiful, loving lives they are leading, full of passion and wonder. No woman should ever judge another woman's choice on how she lives and works in this case, IMHO.

To conclude, I think the woman in the OP sounds like a bit of a rude numpty! [:D]



PatricksPeaches -> RE: women's rights are sinful? (8/20/2008 1:03:25 AM)

I don't like to judge one way or the other.
If a woman wants to be single and work outside the home, good for her. Just don't bring children into the world and expect society to raise them.
If a woman wants to be married and stay at home, good for her too. Just don't push your life on those who don't want the same thing.

For me personally, I want to be at home. But considering my current situation, I have to go out an work. Do I want someone telling me that I should stay at home and put up with a unloving husband? NO!! Do I want someone to tell me to kick all men to the curb and do it all myself? NO!! I want to choose what works for me and my family and our situation.

We are talking about rights. Yes, we have more rights now than before. But no one should have the right to dictate how someone else should or shouldn't live.

*I have had a very personal experience with this kind of thing recently. Sorry if this is harsh to some. It is just not right to tell someone else how to live.



rgod -> RE: women's rights are sinful? (8/20/2008 7:35:38 PM)

quote:

There has always been sin. Just tell her to read the bible. Maybe "back then" it didn't seem like there was as much sin because...

1)There were no tv's or radios so no news
2)No newspapers and if there were there were only a few of them and not everyone got one
3)Maybe people just didn't feel as proud of their sins and they do nowadays so they didn't tell everyone what "bad" things they've done


I totally agree with InBetweenDreams. If you really read through the bible a lot of things that happened would make your hair stand on end. Things weren't publicized as much ... that's all.



landabee -> RE: women's rights are sinful? (8/20/2008 8:20:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PatricksPeaches

I don't like to judge one way or the other.
If a woman wants to be single and work outside the home, good for her. Just don't bring children into the world and expect society to raise them.
If a woman wants to be married and stay at home, good for her too. Just don't push your life on those who don't want the same thing.

For me personally, I want to be at home. But considering my current situation, I have to go out an work. Do I want someone telling me that I should stay at home and put up with a unloving husband? NO!! Do I want someone to tell me to kick all men to the curb and do it all myself? NO!! I want to choose what works for me and my family and our situation.

We are talking about rights. Yes, we have more rights now than before. But no one should have the right to dictate how someone else should or shouldn't live.

*I have had a very personal experience with this kind of thing recently. Sorry if this is harsh to some. It is just not right to tell someone else how to live.



*applause*



NotDoneYet -> RE: women's rights are sinful? (8/20/2008 11:03:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: fallenstar

The other day I was speaking to a woman in chatroom, a conservative non-denominational Christian. She said that she wishes that we were still in the times when women just had jobs like nannys and school teachers.

Um, EXCUSE ME!!!!???

"Back in the day", women did'nt have half the rights and respect that men got. If a women wanted to have a decent, well-off life she had to get married. Yes, women could have jobs, but they did'nt pay as much as men's jobs. Nannys and school teachers did'nt make that much money. And what happens if you are the kind of woman who dislikes children? What happens to you then? What about women who are asexual?

I asked her some of the questions above, and she said "I know we have more rights, but back then their was less sinning". I could'nt believe it. What did she mean, less sinning? Treating somebody like a tool because of their gender, ISN'T a sin? Forcing people to get married, ISN'T a sin? I think marriage is about love, not wanting to have sex or making kids, like it was "back in the day".

I know a lot of you are going to disagree, but just think about it. Were things better back then? Do you like what we have now even more? Are you somewhere in between?


I think women have more CHOICES today...and I'm glad for that. The "feminists" fought for things like permitting women to enter "male dominated" professions, law, medicine, engineering. Feminism has forced workplace changes, FMLA (which should have more teeth), flex time, telecommuting, discussion of work/family life balance...

I work in what used to be (even 25 years ago when I started out) a male-dominated field. My first job in my field, I was paid 2 dollars less an hour than a man hired the same time in the same position...reason...He had a wife and kids...I didn't. (well, I was a single mom, but that's a story for another time). Thank God things have changed...that wouldn't fly now. But, before the "feminist revolution" those things were commonplace AND LEGAL. We fought for "equal work, equal pay"...

I remember being told "why don't you go home and bake cookies"...and that sort of behavior being perfectly ok and ACCEPTED!

While I admire those who are SAHM's, and I was a SAHM for a few years, truth is, I couldn't do it, physically, emotionally, mentally or financially now. I've seen my husband's paycheck, I don't want to live on it. I don't see how a family COULD live on it (and I'm not talking about an extravagant lifestyle).

I'm not a "man-hating" feminist...I'm a man-loving feminist...

And as far as "sin" goes...for women, maybe there's more opportunity (out and about rather than at home), but that boils down to the choices we all make about our behavior....

NDY



solo_soprano22 -> RE: women's rights are sinful? (8/21/2008 12:00:02 AM)

Sometimes I think about the countries where women are basically possessions...where men regularly rape women to destroy families (the husbands won't want them after their raped), maybe get a gun and shoot them up the vagina and/or cut off their breasts in addition to that. And there's nothing women can do about it... I know America has never been that way, but that's what the title of the thread makes me think of. Anyway I'm thankful women can choose what they want to do (still bothered by the fact that men and women can do the same job but get paid different wages); it's fine if someone wants to be a nanny, nurse, secretary... but I want to be a biologist, and I'm glad I have the option. :)



3cappuccinosmom -> RE: women's rights are sinful? (8/21/2008 5:53:37 AM)

quote:

Sometimes I think about the countries where women are basically possessions...where men regularly rape women to destroy families (the husbands won't want them after their raped), maybe get a gun and shoot them up the vagina and/or cut off their breasts in addition to that. And there's nothing women can do about it... I know America has never been that way, but that's what the title of the thread makes me think of.


IMO, there's a big difference between basic human rights and modern Western feminism.

I do not know one single Christian, even those of super-patriarchal mindsets, who do not grieve over the horrendous treatment of women in situations like that. I would also like to point out that such behavior is not a function of "traditional patriarchy" or whatever--it's a weapon of warfare, and though women make up the majority of victims, the people who commit such atrocities have no qualms about lopping off the arms (or other appendeges) of men who get in their way or refuse to participate, either. There is no law and order in those places and decent people of both genders are pretty much powerless.

Now, in places where the law supports such horrible things as wife-beating, honor killings, and FGM, I totally agree with you. All of those things simply break God's principles for the treatment of others.



Sideways -> RE: women's rights are sinful? (8/21/2008 7:24:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NotDoneYet
I'm not a "man-hating" feminist...I'm a man-loving feminist...


Me too! All because I agree that women deserve not to be insulted and harassed at work and should have equal pay for equal work.

And no, being a feminist doesn't mean that I think women can insult or harass men and get away with it. Being a feminist doesn't mean I think women can do whatever bad things they want and just blame it on hormones (I've been hearing a lot of this lately about feminism).

Actually, being a feminist means that I have high standards for female behavior, whether you choose to be at home or working outside the home or what. These days we do have a choice and we should live out our lives as best as we can by the grace of God.



daisies4u -> RE: women's rights are sinful? (8/21/2008 9:55:28 AM)

quote:

I know we have more rights, but back then their was less sinning". I could'nt believe it. What did she mean, less sinning?


I understand this completely, but I disagree with it having to do with women's rights. Back in the time that she is talking about, crime was lower. Granted, there were no news cameras at the scene of every crime. But, the fact remains that crime back then is not what it is today. For the most part, people were decent. There was no "crime investigation" show on every channell telling people who to murder, rape, molest, etc. and get away with it.

Times were different back then. Our thought processes are different. Even 50 years ago, it was basically unheard of to kill your wife, chop her up and hide her in the freezer.

Morals were different, families were different...life was different. I wish we could go back to a little bit of that.



solo_soprano22 -> RE: women's rights are sinful? (8/21/2008 11:25:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom

quote:

Sometimes I think about the countries where women are basically possessions...where men regularly rape women to destroy families (the husbands won't want them after their raped), maybe get a gun and shoot them up the vagina and/or cut off their breasts in addition to that. And there's nothing women can do about it... I know America has never been that way, but that's what the title of the thread makes me think of.


IMO, there's a big difference between basic human rights and modern Western feminism.

I do not know one single Christian, even those of super-patriarchal mindsets, who do not grieve over the horrendous treatment of women in situations like that. I would also like to point out that such behavior is not a function of "traditional patriarchy" or whatever--it's a weapon of warfare, and though women make up the majority of victims, the people who commit such atrocities have no qualms about lopping off the arms (or other appendeges) of men who get in their way or refuse to participate, either. There is no law and order in those places and decent people of both genders are pretty much powerless.

Now, in places where the law supports such horrible things as wife-beating, honor killings, and FGM, I totally agree with you. All of those things simply break God's principles for the treatment of others.


I wasn't really comparing the two. :) That's just what came to mind when I saw the title of the thread.



doinkdom -> RE: women's rights are sinful? (8/21/2008 1:19:09 PM)

Were things better back then?
No
Do you like what we have now even more?
No
Are you somewhere in between?
Yes



bluestone -> RE: women's rights are sinful? (8/22/2008 2:28:48 PM)

60years ago, people were ashamed of their sin and hid it better. Today there is no shame. THAT is the difference, not feminism.

The field I work in is still male dominated, but when I started there were very few women at all , and I made far less than men doing the same job . Not so long ago, either. I got smart and started doing independant contract embalming, instead of working at one mortuary. I charged a price, and if they needed the work done, they paid. I traveled over several counties, but made a decent living. I happen to be very good at something few are these days: Restorative art.

A couple of years ago I was able to buy into a partnership owned cemetery. If not for the early feminist, I would still be answering the phones. I still do a small amount of contract work, but if not for those that demanded equal work and pay, I would not have my career at all.



car2ner -> RE: women's rights are sinful? (8/23/2008 8:33:51 AM)

M'love and I were talking about this a bit this morning. Changes have come from the rise of techonology. Back in the day, men went and did the hunting and protecting and pillaging. Women had to stay back and protect and work the lands and raise the children. These women were tough since the men were often not around. This gave the men something to fight for, besides power, a home to come back to.

Now physical size and travel are no longer the issues they once were. Granted, there is still work that requires men (and sometimes women) to be gone for long periods of time and a wife (or husband) has to maintain a home to come back to, to "fight for".

Now both partners leave the house and come back to the house within a day, most of the time. That is what has really made the way for women to demand more equality in work. And what has increased the woman's workload as they now often work in and outside the home.

Less sin? The human nature hasn't changed, just the opportunities.



Sadey -> RE: women's rights are sinful? (8/23/2008 12:29:00 PM)

I was involved with a safe house for women and I remember having a conversaition with the director who had talked to an expert in the field. They agreed things are worse, much more violence and unfortunately doesn't the bible teach that it will get much worse before Jesus comes?

Unless you lived "in the day" you really can't compare it to today. One of the main things I see is the sexualization of our daughers at such an early age. Its very sad that very young girls are having sex and babies. Yes I know they were sent away "back in the day" but it is much worse now. We are stealing our children's childhood.



Sideways -> RE: women's rights are sinful? (8/23/2008 12:45:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sadey
One of the main things I see is the sexualization of our daughers at such an early age. Its very sad that very young girls are having sex and babies. Yes I know they were sent away "back in the day" but it is much worse now. We are stealing our children's childhood.


I agree with you on the sexualization of girls, and it isn't just the girls either, honestly.

But of course, "back in the day" girls were getting married and having children at 14 or 15, which today is considered unthinkable or at the least distasteful. There's a fine lady who posts here, whose grandmother was quite upset and worried about her because she wasn't married at age 16.

It's far, far better to be married and having children naturally, but that doesn't mean we should be marrying our daughters off at age 15, either.



bluestone -> RE: women's rights are sinful? (8/23/2008 12:52:23 PM)

the shame factor is gone. People are no longer ashamed of out of wedlock births, co habitation, etc.
It has nothing to do with women outside the home. Back then the milkman presented opportunities for adultery..remember the old joke: does the baby look like the husband or the milkman?

The good news is that men are being held more accountable thanks to improved paternity testing, and courts actually attempt to get them to pay child support. Back in the good old days the woman was the heathen, the man was not.

Sin has always been around. I see one huge difference: At one time even most non believers had a moral or ethical code. Decency. Now we are hard pressed to find it anywhere.



10SNE1? -> RE: women's rights are sinful? (8/24/2008 10:38:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bluestone


The good news is that men are being held more accountable thanks to improved paternity testing, and courts actually attempt to get them to pay child support. Back in the good old days the woman was the heathen, the man was not.

.


This is so true. Sometimes I honestly think that young women the ages of my daughters ( and several of you gals) 25,20, and 17 just have no concept of how it used to be not that long ago. I was a teenager in the late 1970s and I can tell you that my mother made it VERY clear that "good" girls didn't. She did, to her credit, make it clear to my brother that he would provide for any child he fathered or she would spend his inheritance doing it for him [sm=thumbsup.gif]

However, it was a completely different conversation. It was just "common knowledge" that boys couldn't be expected to control themselves and girls had the responsibility to not let things get out of hand. When teen pregnancy happened, the father was spoken of in terms of limiting dreams, giving up college, being stuck with a family too soon. The girl was labeled a slut.

Going back one more generation. My mother ( who is now in her early 70s) and her friends were raised by women who routinely acknowledged that many men, married or not, would "sow their wild oats" and the wife should just be thankful that he was a good provider and didn't drink or beat the kids.

We also have a son ( age 23) in the middle of the three girls. While girls are still the ones who get pregnant [;)], I am please to see that today there is more of a mindset that sex outside of marriage is just as much a sin for men as it is for women.

Now...I do take issue with some of the " girls tempt the poor boys by how they dress" attitude that is still around many youth groups...but I think there is a thread for that a couple rows down!



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