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[Poll]
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Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong
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| TRUE - Christians have no business ever drinking alcohol |
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| FALSE - Cristians having an occasional glass of wine is not sinful |
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Total Votes : 120
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(last vote on : 10/5/2008 1:40:56 AM)
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/20/2008 8:59:45 AM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 7616
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
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Isn't this more of a cultural thing as well?
I have relatives in France and Italy and they say they don't have near the alcohol problems there that we have here in the US.
Their children drink watered down wine and champagne with meals just like their parents and by the time they're adults they rarely abuse it. Sure it gets abused, but nothing like the US.
I suppose for the European countries there is nothing 'fun' or 'forbidden' about drinking alcohol so the abuse rate is lower.
However, the discussion is not about alcohol and the abuses, it's about the lack of respect someone has for a fellow Christian. We are never going to agree on everything. This person needs to understand that and not lay her personal convictions on someone's elses door. Especially when what that person is doing has no impact on her or her life whatsoever.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/20/2008 9:13:39 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1935
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It also could be that this friend is recognizing or noticing some behaviors that concern her.
We have only heard the one side.
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"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/20/2008 9:29:36 AM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 7616
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
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Based on the OP (which is the only thing we can go by)
quote:
ORIGINAL: MindySue69
She says that it offends her and thus, I should not drink it (even if I'm not drinking it in front of her; the mere fact that she knows I drink it and doesn't approve should be enough for me to be rid of it.)
This person is laying her personal convictions on someone else's door and expecting her (the OP) to adhere to them.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/20/2008 10:06:37 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1935
Joined: 8/30/2007
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I'm just saying anyone can put a spin on a topic to sway others to our desired objective.
I'm not saying the op is doing this, it's just food for thought.
Sometimes our true friends are the ones who tell us the truth, even if it means we are offended.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/20/2008 1:05:21 PM
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Dred
Posts: 231
Joined: 10/11/2007
From: Alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
Isn't this more of a cultural thing as well?
I have relatives in France and Italy and they say they don't have near the alcohol problems there that we have here in the US.
This is a good point. I think there are many who start abusing it in their teens because it is looked on as some forbidden fruit and they feel like, when they can get it, they should drink as much as they can while the opportunity lasts.
France and Italy are also big wine countries; I wonder if, as a result, distilled liquors are less popular. I know some people drink hard liquor without any troubles, but I think it is a lot more dangerous. This might be expected since wine and beer are natural results of fruit and malt and have been around for thousands of years, while distillation is relatively recent. Additionally, it takes some effort for most people to get really drunk without hard liquor: 12 ounce curls, aerobic exercise going to the bathroom, etc.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/20/2008 1:23:20 PM
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MindySue69
Posts: 321
Joined: 8/5/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
It also could be that this friend is recognizing or noticing some behaviors that concern her.
We have only heard the one side.
I use the term loosely - this "friend" is really not a close friend at all - a casual acquaintance who invited me for dinner one time and this topic came up in conversation. The discussion started when another guest joked that he was shocked that she didn't offer him a beer.
The other guest knew how she felt about alcohol and he also expected her to react the way she did - he was pulling her chain so to speak, and she went off on this tirade about how alcohol has no place in the home of a Christian and of course I had to speak up and she was quite offended (even asked me if I knew the Lord.)
Needless to say I'm not going to be pursuing a friendship with her beyond the casual stage. First of all, I need to be friends with someone who has a much better sense of humor and understands when someone (the other guest who she's known for years) is teasing.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/20/2008 3:18:58 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10516
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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Unfortunately, there are some folks like that. In my church , we call it "sacred cows" --> Things that we make into a mountain that are nothing more than tradition. I think we all have those "cows" but we need to be careful that we do not make them into "biblical" cows and keep that at the personal preference/conviction level.
As I stated earlier - I do not drink. There are several reasons for this, not the least of which is that I simply cannot stand the taste of alcohol. I grew up with the occasional sip of it from my parents glasses so it was not forbidden or unknown, but I simply don't like the taste. Second, when I was in high school, I went on a student tour to Europe and my parents actually encouraged me to try the German beer (they used to live there and loved it and knew that even as a teen, I had a good head on my shoulders). I tried it, thought it was nasty and didn't drink the rest of the glass. I didn't get a buzz but boy was I sick as a dog the rest of the night. That's when I made a vow to God that I would never drink again aside from communion wine.
However, it's MY vow and MY vow alone. My family respects that and I respect the fact that most of them drink moderately. So, we'll go out to eat and I'll order my virgin strawberry daquiri and they order a glass of wine. We all enjoy our drinks, no one gets drunk and no one really cares. When I have the family over, I rarely have any alcoholic drinks to offer simply because I don't know what to buy and they don't care. (I did buy my dad some wine once for part of a special meal I made him, but I discussed it with the local wine expert for help!). It's simply not a big deal.
Now, I also attend & am employed by a church with a large 12 Step ministry and I have a number of friends who are recovering alcoholics and addicts. For that reason, I do think that it is appropriate for leaders & mature believers in my church who might drink to keep it private because we have a large number of baby believers who have serious struggles with this. I'm not saying abstain, but like the meat sacrificed to idols debate, abstain around those who are genuinely weak in this area.
Being offended because of a sacred cow is not weakness. Being alcoholic is weakness.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/20/2008 3:28:46 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1935
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
Being alcoholic is weakness.
It's a disease, not a weakness.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/20/2008 3:42:09 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10516
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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I won't get into the debate of whether it's a disease or not, but a disease can be a weakness.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/20/2008 3:43:49 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6631
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Being alcoholic is weakness.
It's a disease, not a weakness.
How is it different than being a drunkard?
If it's the same, then it is the only disease that God states will keep a person out of heaven.
If it's different, then how is it different?
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/20/2008 3:49:56 PM
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MindySue69
Posts: 321
Joined: 8/5/2008
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Oh dear.
Well nobody chooses to become an alcoholic, but it happens much like one becomes addicted to heroin or cocaine or caffeine or nicotine.
Some people end up making choices that may cause them to get cancer.
It may feel better to call it a "disease," though. That absolves the "sick person" of any and all responsibility in the situation.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/20/2008 3:55:39 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10516
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
People weren't born choosing to be an alcoholic. No one in their right mind would choose that.
Do people choose to have cancer?
Do they wake up one morning and say, "I think I'll become an alcoholic?"
No.
Do they make choices that result in becoming alcoholic?
Yes.
Alcoholism is not like a cold. You don't "catch it". You make a pattern of choices and eventually those choices have consequences. I'm not making light of alcoholism. I have friends and even family who are alcoholics. It's a horrible thing. But, not one of them became an alcoholic through "no fault of their own". It's a consequence of sin - not the result of a virus attacking their body.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/20/2008 3:58:53 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1935
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
-But people aren't born with it (how do they catch it?)
-If they repent of the disease, they can go to heaven.
But like I said, no other "disease," including cancer or leprosy, will keep anyone out of heaven.
Are you attempting coy here? You are speaking of something you do not know and it shows.
People are born with the gene.
I'm a recovered alcoholic who choose Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. He delivered me from the bondage.
Are you really trying to tell me that I am NOT going to heaven?
If so, did I miss the memo on Christ giving up His throne to you?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/20/2008 4:01:26 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1935
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Alcoholism is not like a cold. You don't "catch it". You make a pattern of choices and eventually those choices have consequences. I'm not making light of alcoholism. I have friends and even family who are alcoholics. It's a horrible thing. But, not one of them became an alcoholic through "no fault of their own". It's a consequence of sin - not the result of a virus attacking their body.
That's not what I am saying. of course we have a responsibility in it, just like we have responsibilities for all the choices we make, alcoholic or not.
I am saying that it is not a cut and dry issue of pure weakness.
It being a disease is not a choice, not is it an absolution of guilt and responsibility.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/20/2008 4:02:37 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1935
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Some people end up making choices that may cause them to get cancer.
Yes, and some who don't make bad choices end up getting cancer too.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/20/2008 4:06:06 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6631
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
Some people end up making choices that may cause them to get cancer.
Yes, and some who don't make bad choices end up getting cancer too.
But neither are excluded from heaven because of cancer.
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/20/2008 4:15:06 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 10075
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
Status: offline
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Alcoholism is simply put and addiction to alcohol. Just like a person becomes addicted to pain medication, crack, cocaine, meth, speed etc.
For the lack of a better term I think weakness is appropriate. Some studies have shown that certain people are genetically predisposed to alcoholism. If this is the case that would be where the weakness comes in at. I know recovering alcolholics and would in no way say anything disparraging about them or anyone else in that situation. Its just that some of us can drink, take medications and so forth without any longterm problems and some of us can't. In todays society it has become accepted as a desease whether it is or not. And Phos you are right it is the end results of choices we make. We do not chose to be drug addicts or alcoholics. But the actions we take and the things we do on r regular basis can and does result in addictions. I do not mean to degrade or lessen the problem these people face. I have the utmost respect for anyone that has beat that beast.
_____________________________
Remember: God loves you and I'm trying!
~rogasinger4Him
Body Piercings
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/20/2008 4:27:01 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10516
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
Status: offline
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Sorry, but there is no "gene" that makes someone abuse alcohol. Yes, there is genetic evidence that some folks will "become" alcoholic easier than others (pre-disposed), but there is nothing that says if you have "x" gene, you will abuse alcohol. Hence, you are not born with the disease of alcoholism. If you have that gene, you are not doomed anymore than I to become alcoholic because you and I both have the freedom to make choices that will or will not result in becoming alcoholic. Now, some will become addicted faster than others because they are pre-disposed, but that doesn't mean they are "genetically alcoholics".
And again, being predisposed to something does not mean it is not a weakness. In fact, I would say that being predisposed to something is a weakness and we should recognize that and be on our guard so as not to fall into that weakness. I am not saying that to be haughty: I myself am predisposed to certain weaknesses and struggles.
For instance, some folks have a very low sex-drive. I am not one of those people. That's a biological fact with physiological reasons. However, that does not mean that I have the "disease" of fornication and/or lust since I am single. I may struggle more than some with my thought-life and control (am "weaker") but that doesn't mean a hill of beans. I have the same responsibility as everyone else to maintain my purity. So, while one person can watch a movie and not have it affect them in the least, I know there are some movies I simply must avoid to help maintain my purity.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: Christians Drinking Wine (Moderately) is Wrong - 8/20/2008 4:31:38 PM
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Qtman
Posts: 10075
Joined: 3/21/2006
From: Crimson Tide Country
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
Sorry, but there is no "gene" that makes someone abuse alcohol. Yes, there is genetic evidence that some folks will "become" alcoholic easier than others (pre-disposed), but there is nothing that says if you have "x" gene, you will abuse alcohol. Hence, you are not born with the disease of alcoholism. If you have that gene, you are not doomed anymore than I to become alcoholic because you and I both have the freedom to make choices that will or will not result in becoming alcoholic. Now, some will become addicted faster than others because they are pre-disposed, but that doesn't mean they are "genetically alcoholics".
And again, being predisposed to something does not mean it is not a weakness. In fact, I would say that being predisposed to something is a weakness and we should recognize that and be on our guard so as not to fall into that weakness. I am not saying that to be haughty: I myself am predisposed to certain weaknesses and struggles.
For instance, some folks have a very low sex-drive. I am not one of those people. That's a biological fact with physiological reasons. However, that does not mean that I have the "disease" of fornication and/or lust since I am single. I may struggle more than some with my thought-life and control (am "weaker") but that doesn't mean a hill of beans. I have the same responsibility as everyone else to maintain my purity. So, while one person can watch a movie and not have it affect them in the least, I know there are some movies I simply must avoid to help maintain my purity.
I thought that is what I said. 
_____________________________
Remember: God loves you and I'm trying!
~rogasinger4Him
Body Piercings
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