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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/8/2008 4:31:02 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2036
Joined: 2/26/2006
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FreeGrace,
Still haven't eaten that humble pie? 
Anyway, I see that you're still harping on one verse, rather than looking at context...
Perhaps, if you continue reading in that passage from John, you would see that some Jews did believe in Him, but most did not and continued arguing with Him as told them that their father was the devil.
He even implies that Abraham is not their father. Now using your same argument of the "if", one would say that Abraham is not the father of the Jews. Now we know that Abraham is the physical father of the Jews, but obviously not the spiritual father of the Jews. That's what would make sense.
Jesus says in verse 36 that IF the Son sets them free, they are free indeed. That does imply inability. They cannot be free apart from the Son.
They cannot believe because the Son has not set them free.
You continue to neglect the whole passage, choosing instead to focus on one verse, like you always do.
P.S. You might want to stop saying that your view is the only Biblical view. It gets a little annoying and doesn't make you any friends. Just a tip. Have some more humble pie.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/8/2008 5:10:11 PM
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InTheGrip
Posts: 10
Joined: 9/8/2008
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I've been following this thread off and on for quite some time. I've seen both sides of the argument. I've studied both sides of the argument, brought about by attending a church which is staunchly Calvinistic. Here's my 2 cents worth.
This thread has consumed 69+ pages in the forum. Using the total word count in the last page, there are a total of 8,000+ words on this page. If we assume that the average of all of the pages is even 1/2 of that, then there have been a total of 276,000 words expended. According to my PC version of the NIV, the New Testament contains only 186,314 words. What level of importance do the 276,000 words on this forum compare to 186,314 words in the New Testament? To even 1000 words of the Gospel message to an unbeliever?
To the Calvinist: Why are you so threatened by an opposing view? If you truly believe that God has predestined and predetermined everything, then why be so set on changing other people's interpretation? If you are right, then everything is as God intended. Why all the effort to convince others of your viewpoint? In your view, a non-Calivinist has zero effect on God's plan. Just sit back, smile and know that all is as God intended. But you better be right.
To the non-Calvinist: I can understand the need to question the Calvinist's view. Look at it this way: If you are wrong, then it makes no difference. Everything is as God intended. However, if a Calvinist is wrong, the consequences are dire. In my dealings with Calvinists, I have found that this philosophy is mostly an intellectual pursuit anyway. It gains credibility to its adherents only if they can convince others that their ideology has merit (not sure how that works - believing that everything is predetermined except someone's belief, so we need to change that). Hang in there.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/8/2008 5:25:21 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5938
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: InTheGrip
To the Calvinist: Why are you so threatened by an opposing view? If you truly believe that God has predestined and predetermined everything, then why be so set on changing other people's interpretation? If you are right, then everything is as God intended. Why all the effort to convince others of your viewpoint? In your view, a non-Calivinist has zero effect on God's plan. Just sit back, smile and know that all is as God intended. But you better be right.
Simple... Paul knew that he was nothing and that it's God that causes the growth, yet he preached... To some it's foolishness. others a stumbling block, but to those called....
quote:
To the non-Calvinist: I can understand the need to question the Calvinist's view. Look at it this way: If you are wrong, then it makes no difference. Everything is as God intended. However, if a Calvinist is wrong, the consequences are dire. In my dealings with Calvinists, I have found that this philosophy is mostly an intellectual pursuit anyway. It gains credibility to its adherents only if they can convince others that their ideology has merit (not sure how that works - believing that everything is predetermined except someone's belief, so we need to change that). Hang in there.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/8/2008 6:01:33 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
No, rw. The calvinists misunderstand what Paul is saying in Eph 2 about being "dead in sins". They only grasp function. But Paul is referring to position. Just count up all the prepositional phrases like "IN Christ", "WITH Christ", "IN sins", etc, in ch 2. Paul's point is that the unregenerate are separate from Christ and God. That's a positional problem, NOT a functional one. whereas, the regenerate are IN Christ and God, again, a positional issue, NOT a functional one.
(Ephesians 2:1) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins
This verse speaks of the unregenerate's position, which is "in their sins", rather than "in Christ".
quote:
(Ephesians 2:2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
(Ephesians 2:3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
So how is walking, having conversation, and fulfilling the desires of the flesh not functional?
Please tell me. How IS "fulfilling the desires of the flesh" functional? Sounds pretty dysfunctional to me.
quote:
quote:
Seekers all. Acts 17:27.
(Ecclesiastes 7:29) Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
Some seekers mankind are. Seekers of many inventions.
Since God created mankind to seek Him, your verses do not contradict that in the least.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/8/2008 6:17:34 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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quote:
KELMAN: Apron strings conveys the idea even better, imo.
It means to be totally dependent upon and controlled by.
Dependent on what, that God will make my next decision not be a sin?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/8/2008 6:33:11 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
FreeGrace,
Still haven't eaten that humble pie?
Why? You serving? If so, why?
quote:
Anyway, I see that you're still harping on one verse, rather than looking at context...
Perhaps, if you continue reading in that passage from John, you would see that some Jews did believe in Him, but most did not and continued arguing with Him as told them that their father was the devil.
You know, that has been fully acknowledged by me already. Want some pie?
My point about what Jesus said in John 8:24 is that He was promising or guaranteeing an outcome (die in sins or not) based on the condition of IF they believed or not. I've already noted that v.43 shows Jesus telling them their father was the devil.
So, what you have to face is that Jesus promised those children of the devil how to avoid dying in their sins, namely, by believing in Him. He would be a liar to tell them that IF He wasn't going to die for them.
quote:
He even implies that Abraham is not their father. Now using your same argument of the "if", one would say that Abraham is not the father of the Jews. Now we know that Abraham is the physical father of the Jews, but obviously not the spiritual father of the Jews. That's what would make sense.
Your argument is absurd. My use of the "if" is in v.24 and has NOTHING to do with who is or isn't Abraham's father. Do you have any idea WHY Abraham is the "spiritual father of the Jews? It is based on faith, the ONLY THING that will guarantee one of NOT dying in their sins, which is what Jesus told the children of the devil.
Read Rom 4:9-16 explains how one can have Abraham as a father. It is through faith. Note v.16 "for this reason it is by faith, that it might be in accordance with grace, in order that the promise may be certain to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law (physical Jews), but alsoto those who are of the faith of Abraham (Gentiles), who is the father of us all."
quote:
Jesus says in verse 36 that IF the Son sets them free, they are free indeed. That does imply inability. They cannot be free apart from the Son.
No, it doesn't say IF the Son sets them free. It says "The TRUTH will set you free". That is the gospel. And it is a promise!
quote:
They cannot believe because the Son has not set them free.
That is an absurd understanding. v.31 does NOT define v.24. What Jesus said in v.24 is complete in thought and does not need more verses to understand it.
kelman finally got my point. If (1st class condition) my pov were true, your understanding of the Bible is contradicted.
quote:
You continue to neglect the whole passage, choosing instead to focus on one verse, like you always do.
No, I haven't. When I brought up John 8:24 initially, my point was that Jesus was evangelizing the non-elect, based on what Jesus said in v.43. So, your "assessment" is in error. Want another piece of pie? 
quote:
P.S. You might want to stop saying that your view is the only Biblical view. It gets a little annoying and doesn't make you any friends. Just a tip. Have some more humble pie.
No thanks. Let me ask you: just how many "views" ARE Biblical? I'm sure you think calvinsim is Biblical. OK, fine. I'm curious as to which other views you think are also Biblical, since you claim that my view isn't the "only Biblical view". How many views are?
Now, IF you claim that only calvinism is the Biblical view, why do you chide me for my view? Aren't you doing the same thing?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/8/2008 6:36:15 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: InTheGrip
I've been following this thread off and on for quite some time. I've seen both sides of the argument. I've studied both sides of the argument, brought about by attending a church which is staunchly Calvinistic. Here's my 2 cents worth.
This thread has consumed 69+ pages in the forum. Using the total word count in the last page, there are a total of 8,000+ words on this page. If we assume that the average of all of the pages is even 1/2 of that, then there have been a total of 276,000 words expended. According to my PC version of the NIV, the New Testament contains only 186,314 words. What level of importance do the 276,000 words on this forum compare to 186,314 words in the New Testament? To even 1000 words of the Gospel message to an unbeliever?
To the Calvinist: Why are you so threatened by an opposing view? If you truly believe that God has predestined and predetermined everything, then why be so set on changing other people's interpretation? If you are right, then everything is as God intended. Why all the effort to convince others of your viewpoint? In your view, a non-Calivinist has zero effect on God's plan. Just sit back, smile and know that all is as God intended. But you better be right.
To the non-Calvinist: I can understand the need to question the Calvinist's view. Look at it this way: If you are wrong, then it makes no difference. Everything is as God intended. However, if a Calvinist is wrong, the consequences are dire. In my dealings with Calvinists, I have found that this philosophy is mostly an intellectual pursuit anyway. It gains credibility to its adherents only if they can convince others that their ideology has merit (not sure how that works - believing that everything is predetermined except someone's belief, so we need to change that). Hang in there.
Welcome to the thread, ITG! I am "hanging in there" for those who just read the thread looking for understanding. You have made some excellent points.
Thanks for posting.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/8/2008 6:38:08 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: InTheGrip
To the Calvinist: Why are you so threatened by an opposing view? If you truly believe that God has predestined and predetermined everything, then why be so set on changing other people's interpretation? If you are right, then everything is as God intended. Why all the effort to convince others of your viewpoint? In your view, a non-Calivinist has zero effect on God's plan. Just sit back, smile and know that all is as God intended. But you better be right.
Simple... Paul knew that he was nothing and that it's God that causes the growth, yet he preached... To some it's foolishness. others a stumbling block, but to those called....
quote:
To the non-Calvinist: I can understand the need to question the Calvinist's view. Look at it this way: If you are wrong, then it makes no difference. Everything is as God intended. However, if a Calvinist is wrong, the consequences are dire. In my dealings with Calvinists, I have found that this philosophy is mostly an intellectual pursuit anyway. It gains credibility to its adherents only if they can convince others that their ideology has merit (not sure how that works - believing that everything is predetermined except someone's belief, so we need to change that). Hang in there.
Right. What can you say? All you can do is roll your eyes in bewilderment.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/8/2008 7:11:05 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 425
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
quote:
(Ephesians 2:2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
(Ephesians 2:3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
So how is walking, having conversation, and fulfilling the desires of the flesh not functional? Please tell me.
How IS "fulfilling the desires of the flesh" functional? Sounds pretty dysfunctional to me.
Exactly. Being dead in trespasses and sins doesn't mean we don't do anything. We just do all the wrong things.
Just like Romans 3:10-18 says
We don't seek God
We don't understand.
We don't do righteousness and so on and so on.
quote:
(Ecclesiastes 7:29) Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.
Some seekers mankind are. Seekers of many inventions.
quote:
Since God created mankind to seek Him, your verses do not contradict that in the least.
Of course they don't contradict. I don't believe the bible is contradictary.
God made man (Adam) upright. After the fall we sought out many inventions.
Evidently our seekers are broke.
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/8/2008 7:24:14 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
quote:
quote:
(Ephesians 2:2) Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
(Ephesians 2:3) Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
So how is walking, having conversation, and fulfilling the desires of the flesh not functional? Please tell me.
How IS "fulfilling the desires of the flesh" functional? Sounds pretty dysfunctional to me.
Exactly. Being dead in trespasses and sins doesn't mean we don't do anything. We just do all the wrong things.
No. Paul is using "dead" in the sense of being separated from God, just as being "alive in Christ" means union with Christ.
quote:
God made man (Adam) upright. After the fall we sought out many inventions. Evidently our seekers are broke.
no, evidently, your comprehension of Scripture is "broke". Just read Acts 17:26,27. Or, let me help you out here. Here is what it says:
v.26 "and He made from one (Adam), every nation of mankind (the entire human race) to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habiltation,"
v.27 "that they (entire human race) SHOULD SEEK GOD, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is NOT FAR from each one of us"
The "Fall" has zero to do with God creating man to seek Him. That is clear from the phrase "He made FROM one, every nation". It was mankind that He created to seek Him. Not Adam. Adam wasn't created in need of seeking Him. He didn't need to seek Him. It is his progeny that needs to seek Him.
The point of this passage is that God created mankind to seek Him.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/8/2008 7:37:34 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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I've been able to confirm that the Greek word "ean" in John 8:24 is a third class condition, which is a "more probable future condition". The word is in the subjunctive mood, which is a conditional sentence: ie: "if...then".
This type of sentence makes the statement that IF something happens, THEN something else WILL (guarantee or promise) happen.
So, IF the non-elect believe, THEN they will NOT die in their sins.
But, IF the non-elect do NOT believe, THEN they WILL die in their sins.
The 3rd class condition of "if" in John 8:24 is John's way of teaching us that the non-elect could have believed and THEN NOT die in their sins.
Jesus could ONLY say what He did to the non-elect IF He was going to die for them. Otherwise, He was lying to them.
Please check out this link for details.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/8/2008 7:38:51 PM
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InTheGrip
Posts: 10
Joined: 9/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: InTheGrip
To the Calvinist: Why are you so threatened by an opposing view? If you truly believe that God has predestined and predetermined everything, then why be so set on changing other people's interpretation? If you are right, then everything is as God intended. Why all the effort to convince others of your viewpoint? In your view, a non-Calivinist has zero effect on God's plan. Just sit back, smile and know that all is as God intended. But you better be right.
Simple... Paul knew that he was nothing and that it's God that causes the growth, yet he preached... To some it's foolishness. others a stumbling block, but to those called....
OK. Now, what if Paul had not preached? And did Paul have a choice in whether or not he preached?
quote:
quote:
To the non-Calvinist: I can understand the need to question the Calvinist's view. Look at it this way: If you are wrong, then it makes no difference. Everything is as God intended. However, if a Calvinist is wrong, the consequences are dire. In my dealings with Calvinists, I have found that this philosophy is mostly an intellectual pursuit anyway. It gains credibility to its adherents only if they can convince others that their ideology has merit (not sure how that works - believing that everything is predetermined except someone's belief, so we need to change that). Hang in there.
Hmm. I guess I was hoping for a little more substantive answer. Could you clarify?
Finally, could you clarify your interpretation of your signature line? Just curious.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/8/2008 7:42:53 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 425
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
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RWE,
If you have time would you mind if I pick your brain a bit?
I think I remember you saying that you believe in the P in TULIP.
Perseverance of the saints.
This is one of the points you and Free disagree on.
(Philippians 1:6) And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
I believe that we were saved not only to escape the penalty of sin but also to be sanctified and to be holy.
To be conformed to the image of Christ.
This is true in varying degrees to everyone who is truly saved.
My question is that if you can see that we are kept by the power of the Holy Spirit without doing damage to our freewill, then why can't you see that He saves in the first place without doing damage to our free wills?
What I mean by that is that He does it in such a way that it is not shoving it down our throats or forcing as we Calvinists are accused of all the time.
He changes our hearts so that we will love him and not depart from Him.
The reason I ask this is because of this verse.
(Ephesians 1:4) According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
He has chosen us not only to go to heaven but to first be holy and blameless before him and He did it before the foundation of the world.
My question to you is.
How is God able to keep us without doing damage to our free wills?
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/8/2008 8:00:18 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 425
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
no, evidently, your comprehension of Scripture is "broke". Just read Acts 17:26,27. Or, let me help you out here. Here is what it says:
v.26 "and He made from one (Adam), every nation of mankind (the entire human race) to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habiltation,"
v.27 "that they (entire human race) SHOULD SEEK GOD, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is NOT FAR from each one of us"
The "Fall" has zero to do with God creating man to seek Him. That is clear from the phrase "He made FROM one, every nation". It was mankind that He created to seek Him. Not Adam. Adam wasn't created in need of seeking Him. He didn't need to seek Him. It is his progeny that needs to seek Him.
The point of this passage is that God created mankind to seek Him.
Did I say that God made Adam to seek him? I said what scipture says that Adam was made upright and man has sought out many inventions.
Acts 17 does not prove that man is able to seek God. Surehope has pointed out to you that we also were created to love God, yet we don't.
Acts 17 is just a reference to the goodness of God to his enemies just like Acts 14.
(Acts 14:16) Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.
(Acts 14:17) Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.
It is a testimony of the goodness of God not any goodness or ability left in man.
quote:
no, evidently, your comprehension of Scripture is "broke".
I am sick of your cheap shots. I am through debating with you.
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/8/2008 8:28:37 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1782
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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FreeGrace,
When SureHope shows you something like this;
quote:
Why would they die in their sins? Because they are from below and of this world.
You respond with something like this;
quote:
Oh, I see. OK. btw, just what planet are you from, then? LOL
If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.
And;
I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.
I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.
My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.
I am sure this kind of talk just baffles your understanding to no end.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/8/2008 8:43:33 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1782
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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FreeGrace,
quote:
The calvinists deny any potential, but Jesus' use of "if" demonstrates that calvinism is in error, seriously.
The calvinists have to prove that what Jesus said was NOT a promise based on a condition. I would wish them good luck, but I don't believe in luck, AND it won't do them any good anyway.
All nonsense!
Take every person that stood or sat in that crowd and heard Jesus.
Label them with nothing at all.
As far as you know......they are only people in a crowd.
God has seen the future and you have not.
God has already seen and knows beyond any doubt which people in that crowd are going to heaven and hell because the future is as crystal clear to Him as the past and present.
Are you going to tell us all in here that all those people God can see in hell have the potential of not being there?
Are you going to tell us that all those people He can see in hell have the potential to change what He can absolutely see?
God can see the future and a person in hell.
That is something "determined" unless people are able to play trickery on God.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/8/2008 8:53:25 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
no, evidently, your comprehension of Scripture is "broke". Just read Acts 17:26,27. Or, let me help you out here. Here is what it says:
v.26 "and He made from one (Adam), every nation of mankind (the entire human race) to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times, and the boundaries of their habiltation,"
v.27 "that they (entire human race) SHOULD SEEK GOD, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is NOT FAR from each one of us"
The "Fall" has zero to do with God creating man to seek Him. That is clear from the phrase "He made FROM one, every nation". It was mankind that He created to seek Him. Not Adam. Adam wasn't created in need of seeking Him. He didn't need to seek Him. It is his progeny that needs to seek Him.
The point of this passage is that God created mankind to seek Him.
Did I say that God made Adam to seek him? I said what scipture says that Adam was made upright and man has sought out many inventions.
Then please clarify. Your verse certainly wasn't helpful in this discussion. When you give a Scripture, it's always helpful to explain what you think it says, so I know what your point is.
quote:
Acts 17 does not prove that man is able to seek God. Surehope has pointed out to you that we also were created to love God, yet we don't.
We don't? Please don't speak for me. As for Cornelius and Lydia, who worshiped and reverenced God as unbelievers, SH is simply confused. The fact that we ARE created to seek God means that we CAN.
quote:
Acts 17 is just a reference to the goodness of God to his enemies just like Acts 14.
Just? Nonsense. It's way more than "just" that.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/8/2008 8:56:06 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace,
When SureHope shows you something like this;
quote:
Why would they die in their sins? Because they are from below and of this world.
You respond with something like this;
quote:
Oh, I see. OK. btw, just what planet are you from, then? LOL
If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.
And;
I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.
I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.
My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.
I am sure this kind of talk just baffles your understanding to no end.
No, I am baffled at how the calvinists cannot recognize a promise when they read one. Truly baffled.
Would you care to reveal the Scripture you just gave, but didn't bother to give the reference? I know it wasn't in John 8.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/8/2008 8:59:26 PM
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InTheGrip
Posts: 10
Joined: 9/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace,
quote:
The calvinists deny any potential, but Jesus' use of "if" demonstrates that calvinism is in error, seriously.
The calvinists have to prove that what Jesus said was NOT a promise based on a condition. I would wish them good luck, but I don't believe in luck, AND it won't do them any good anyway.
All nonsense!
Take every person that stood or sat in that crowd and heard Jesus.
Label them with nothing at all.
As far as you know......they are only people in a crowd.
God has seen the future and you have not.
God has already seen and knows beyond any doubt which people in that crowd are going to heaven and hell because the future is as crystal clear to Him as the past and present.
Are you going to tell us all in here that all those people God can see in hell have the potential of not being there?
Are you going to tell us that all those people He can see in hell have the potential to change what He can absolutely see?
God can see the future and a person in hell.
That is something "determined" unless people are able to play trickery on God.
KJB
I think you must be careful going down this absolute path and the implications it reveals. By stating that God can see one single outcome as to who is in heaven and who is in hell, then that same idea can apply to all events that appear as choices to man but as certainties to God. Now, here is the problem: we say that God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. However, if God sees only one path throughout time that a man will travel, with no choices (from God's point of view), then you have created a God whose omniscience cancels out His omnipotence. IOW, if there is only one path that man's destiny takes him, God is powerless to change anything about the path. In your view, God's omniscience makes God impotent to affect a change in anything. That is not the God of the Bible.
When I graduated from college, I had the chance to go either to Alabama or Virginia. I chose Alabama. The question I have is this: Does God know how my life would be had I chosen to go to Virginia? Simple question but the answer has great implications.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/8/2008 9:04:35 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace,
quote:
The calvinists deny any potential, but Jesus' use of "if" demonstrates that calvinism is in error, seriously.
The calvinists have to prove that what Jesus said was NOT a promise based on a condition. I would wish them good luck, but I don't believe in luck, AND it won't do them any good anyway.
All nonsense!
Take every person that stood or sat in that crowd and heard Jesus.
Label them with nothing at all.
As far as you know......they are only people in a crowd.
God has seen the future and you have not.
God has already seen and knows beyond any doubt which people in that crowd are going to heaven and hell because the future is as crystal clear to Him as the past and present.
Of course God already knew who was going to heaven and hell. But to you calvinists, it is God who chooses who will believe or not. So your comment here is rather ingenuous. Why do you note His omniscience when what you really push is His sovereignty and causal predetermination? In that light, you cannot explain why Jesus told the non-elect HOW to avoid dying in their sins.
quote:
Are you going to tell us all in here that all those people God can see in hell have the potential of not being there?
I don't have to. John the Apostle already DID. His use of "ean" is a subjunctive conditional sentence, in the 3rd class. Did you check out the link I provided? That 3rd class condition communicates the "future probability". such language clearly tells us that all of those non-elect could have believed and avoiding dying in their sins. Which was the point Jesus was making with them.
quote:
Are you going to tell us that all those people He can see in hell have the potential to change what He can absolutely see?
The use of John's words tells us that there was POTENTIAL for them to believe and avoid dying in their sins. That was exactly what Jesus was promising them. You fail to grasp the significance of the conditional sentence.
"You WILL die in your sins IF you do NOT believe in Me." Or,
"You will NOT die in your sins IF you DO believe in Me." That is what Jesus told them.
These are PROMISES that Jesus made to the non-elect. Which contradicts your theology.
quote:
God can see the future and a person in hell.
God used words to communicate future probability. The 3rd class condition sinks your theology.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/8/2008 9:05:27 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5938
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: InTheGrip
OK. Now, what if Paul had not preached? And did Paul have a choice in whether or not he preached?
Christ made is clear who chooses who....
quote:
Hmm. I guess I was hoping for a little more substantive answer. Could you clarify?
Sure... It has to do with cows...
quote:
Finally, could you clarify your interpretation of your signature line? Just curious.
What interpretation is needed? It's pretty clear what is says...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/8/2008 9:11:34 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5938
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: InTheGrip
I think you must be careful going down this absolute path and the implications it reveals. By stating that God can see one single outcome as to who is in heaven and who is in hell, then that same idea can apply to all events that appear as choices to man but as certainties to God. Now, here is the problem: we say that God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. However, if God sees only one path throughout time that a man will travel, with no choices (from God's point of view), then you have created a God whose omniscience cancels out His omnipotence. IOW, if there is only one path that man's destiny takes him, God is powerless to change anything about the path. In your view, God's omniscience makes God impotent to affect a change in anything. That is not the God of the Bible.
God's plan was formulated prior to creation... You and I are blessed simply to be witness to the slight part of His will He graciously allowed us to participate in and shown to us.... The fact that He lowered himself to our level even briefly and that He has for reasons that only He knows choose to save whomever is beyond grace and mercy... There is only one path because like God, His plan conceived prior to the foundation of the world is perfect, complete and without blemish...
quote:
When I graduated from college, I had the chance to go either to Alabama or Virginia. I chose Alabama. The question I have is this: Does God know how my life would be had I chosen to go to Virginia? Simple question but the answer has great implications.
Temporally you had a choice, eternally it was never in question....
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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