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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 5:24:41 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3860
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[a] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[c] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[d] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.Rom. 9:11-18
Are you aware that Paul was quoting Malachi 1:2 in Rom 9:13, which was written over 400 years after Esau and Jacob were born? Further, are you aware that even when Rebecca was still carrying the twins, they were referred to as "nations", a prophecy of the future nations of Israel and Edom, from Gen 25:23, "And the LORD said to her, 2 nations are in your womb; and 2 peoples shall be separated from your body; and 1 people shall be stronger than the other; and the older shall serve the younger."
So, Paul was referring to the nations in Rom 9, NOT 2 individual persons.
Not so, the point of the whole chapter is election based upon redemption. God uses Esau to demonstrate His prerogative to elect on the basis of his will and totally without regard to human efforts. God also demonstrates that His election is based upon His ownership of man by virtue of creation.
Go ahead and ignore the significance of Gen 25:23 and Mal 1:2. But Paul exhorts Timothy and us to "rightly divide the Word of Truth". You can't do that when you ignore key Bible passages.
The only one who is ignoring anything is you. This is proven by the fact you ignore and then attempt to distort the very clear words of a passage "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)"
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 5:27:45 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3860
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
kelman,
Dont you think it is very odd that you give a POV that implies you are connected to God and under His control (of course we do not see actual strings) and you have people in here telling you that you should cut the strings?
Here you are in here as a Christian boasting about God and how God produces in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him, and you are told you should be cutting the strings?
You make claims based on the very Word of God that God is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure, and you are rebuked and prodded to cut the strings so you can see Light?
This is astonishing!
The depths that people will go to in order to promote a free-will humanistic agenda.
quote:
It's just that darned pesky puppet thing that keeps getting in your way of clear thinking.
If you could cut the strings, you could see things in the proper light.
kelman,
I am glad to know that you are held in control by the One that is in control.
I would never want to prod you to cut the strings (harden your heart) but would glady prod you to do what you are already doing....submit.
I am not going to ask you to cut yourself away from God and His power even if you were able to do it.
I do not want to judge against the control that you claim to be under.
Who am I to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Kelman, you are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.
And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
God has His strings (so to speak) wrapped around you and I am sure the last thing you would want to do is cut them.
That is because God has put it in your heart to love His control.
KJB
Yep, it's beyond "odd". Imagine a Christian distaining being connected to God? It should be the prayer and hope of every Christian to be more and more controlled by and connected to God. Truly, these are "apron strings" no Christian should ever desire to cut.
I know you and the other reformers would never wish anyone to sever their connection to God. A really nice post, KJB and very encouraging, thanks.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 5:31:21 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2289
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quote:
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
WHY does this have ANYTHING to do with US pleasing God?
This Scripture is about God working in us for his own purposes.
quote:
All you need to do is read the clear text and then you should
be asking yourself how can I not! Apparently the text is not so clear.
"How can I not?" - Well how about by sinning, KJB!!
YOU cannot please God unless YOU are spirit filled and YOU are walking in the light.
And YOU are commanded to be spirit-filled, so YOU can choose not to.
Unless YOU are keeping his commandments and YOU are not choosing to sin.
If WE cannot do ANYTHING unless we are induced or forced by God IT IS MEANINGLESS!
If God is most pleased when WE are obedient to HIM, and WE can choose to sin,
the WE have the ability to please God.
When WE grieve the Holy Spirit, is this also "God working in us?"
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 5:32:49 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3860
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Is the promise made to ALL Gentiles ?
Ephesians 3:6 (King James Version)
6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Sounds like it's for the elect (US)
Titus 1:1-2 (King James Version)
1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Given to heirs ONLY...(not all, is it ?)
Hebrews 6:17 (King James Version)
17Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
The CALLED might receive the promise-
Hebrews 9:15 (King James Version)
15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
More "WE" and "US"
2 Peter 1:3-4 (New King James Version)3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
Now, Manna, you ought to know better than to use Scripture to teach truth....don't you know opinions are a better method? If you use opinions then you can teach anything.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 5:40:05 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1577
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quote:
ORIGINAL:rwe2156quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
Let’s look at what the Lord Jesus said.
“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24 NASB95)
So, no, Jesus was not promising salvation at all. Quite the opposite, He was telling them that they would die in there sins and then explains why they will. This is not an offer of salvation, but a proclamation.
Hey SH !!!
Don't the freewillers realize they depict God
as more of a sadist than the alleged calvies ?
They are no the least bit interested in this---
Rather the "OFFER" must be made to all.
And its not sadistic to tell somebody they will die
and go to hell, how they can escape it, all the
while knowing they have no ability to believe?
rwe, you seem to be forgetting that all have sinned and deserve to go to hell. If anything is “fair” it is that. That any are made fit for heaven and thus will escape hell is all of grace – nothing fair about that at all. All glory goes to God who displays His lovingkindness, mercy and grace.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 5:50:47 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1577
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156quote:
SUREHOPE:
I will say that fallen man has an awareness of God,
but chooses to suppress it in unrighteousness.
WOW!!! From a Calvinist, no less!!
Your not one of the ones' who want to knight sir KJB, are you?
I wonder if a reprimand is coming from the great one?
Please tell me how depraved, spiritually dead, god-hating,
spiritually blind, enemies of God can have an awareness of God?
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (Romans 1:18-21 NASB95)
God has made Himself evident to all men through creation.
quote:
If you believe depraved man has an awareness of God, how can you disagree
with the message of Romans 1:18-21?
It is because I agree with Romans 1:18-21 that I say that fallen man has an awareness of God.
For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (Romans 1:21 NASB95)
God has made Himself evident to all men and all men have suppressed the truth in their unrighteousness; all have chosen not to honor God or give thanks. All men are completely without excuse for their dishonoring sin and unrighteousness because all men have an awareness of God.
quote:
I agree man has the moral ability to recognize good and evil
because this is what the Genesis account tells us - man is now
able to know good AND evil.
As for "choosing to suppress" righteousness - are you telling me you
think man has the ability to turn away from God and reject him?
Not only am I telling you that man has the ability to turn away from God and reject Him, but that all men have done exactly that.
quote:
If so, I have no disagreement with you.
But I suggest you are at odds with your own theology of depravity.
Then I guess you need to tell me what my theology of depravity is that you suggest that I am at odds with.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 6:11:17 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1577
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGracequote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
Let’s look at what the Lord Jesus said.
“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24 NASB95)
First He made an explicit statement: “you will die in your sins.” Then He explains why they will die in their sins (the word “for” shows that Jesus is going to explain what he has just stated) “for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
So, no, Jesus was not promising salvation at all. Quite the opposite, He was telling them that they would die in there sins and then explains why they will. This is not an offer of salvation, but a proclamation.
I have included your entire answer here for continuity.
This is a welcomed change.
quote:
Your claim is refuted by your missing the key word in Jesus' statement, which is "unless". You see, what He said is the equivalent to an "if...then" statement. iow, IF this...THEN that.
This kind of construction has a protasis, or antecedent, which is a "condition", and an apodasis, or the consequence of the condition. This forms a "cause-effect relationship".
What is the protasis? "unless you believe in Me"
What is the apodasis? "you WILL die in your sins"
Another way to read this statement is this way:
IF you believe in Me, you WILL NOT die in your sins.
Or, it could be stated in the negative: IF you do NOT believe in Me, you WILL die in your sins.
What is the condition? There is one of 2, 1 being implied: to "believe in Me" or "NOT believe in Me".
What is the consequence? IF the condition is "believing in Me", the consequence is "you will NOT die in your sins".
IF the condition is "NOT believing in Me", the consequence is "you WILL die in your sins".
So, by your failure to deal with the "unless" in the statement, you simply miss the fact that Jesus was not only stating truth, as KJ has noted, He was also promising the non-elect a condition and consequence relationship.
He was promising the non-elect that IF they believed in Him, they will NOT die in their sins.
Or, He was promising the non-elect that IF they did NOT believe in Him, they WILL die in their sins.
So, your answer fails to deal with the reality of the sentence. Your answer was that Jesus makes the explicit statement that they will die in their sins, and explain why. Yet you completely miss the "unless" significance.
The presence of the "unless" indicates the "if...then" conditional sentence. In the Greek, the word is "ean", which is translated "if".
So, you miss the potential that Jesus noted. The use of "if" indicates that they had a choice. IF they DID believe, they would NOT die in their sins.
but, otoh, IF they did NOT believe, they WILL die in their sins.
Bottom line: Jesus promised them the consequence of either condition. Whether they believed or not, He promised them the consequence of either condition.
I did not miss the term “unless”. There is a “cause and effect” sense in the term “unless” – if you don’t believe you will die in your sins. But the question is, how did the Lord Jesus use this “if . . . then” statement? It clearly is not an offer of salvation, but an explanation of why He made the explicit declaration about them – “you will die in your sins.” Why were they going to die in their sins? The term “for” begins the sentence that explains His initial declaration – “for unless you believe that I am He you will die in your sins.” This is clearly an explanation of why they were going to die in their sins.
The second statement, “unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins” is explaining His first statement, “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins.”
The second statement explains the reason why they will die in their sins. The implication is obvious – they did not believe.
The controlling thought is that they were going to die in their sins.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 6:27:11 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2289
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
General revelation found in nature is not enough to get man into some
free-willing ability to please God mode. It is enough so that none are with any excuse.
KJB
Who says we have to please God in order to be saved? Surely he is
pleased when one sinner repents, but only because we have met the condition.
No one is saying the "certain knowledge of God" men possess is salvific.
I am saying it is another proof that man is NOT 100% depraved;
that the so-called depraved creature IS capable of moral decisions.
This ability to recognize our sin and understand the consequences of our sin
is what can "bring us to our senses" in order to repent.
You will ask, why does one man respond and another does not? I don't know
all the answers to this question. If one man's pride keeps him from repenting,
who determined that man would have so much pride? I don't know.
Why are we taught it is so hard for a rich man to be saved if only the elect are saved?
I think part of the answer lies in Rom 2:5,8.
Back to ability ---
I believe that Adam, by virture of eating the fruit, possessed the ability to know evil and sin.
I don't see how that can be debateable.
Here is the problem for the Calvinist: Adam was NOT "totally depraved" afterward!!
To the contrary, Adam not only knew he sinned, but was fearful of the consequences of his sin!
He was not afraid of God's voice - he had heard it many times before - this is a silly argument.
No, he hid before he ever heard God's voice. He was afraid because he knew he had disobeyed
his creator and was now subject to the wrath of God - he thought he would die.
But rather than wiping him off the face of the earth, God entered into a redemptive relationship
with man, and the same ability Adam had to choose remained.
Conclusion: Men are moral free agents held responsible for their sin.
This is a major problem for total depravity - its no "whoop te doo" matter.
More problems occur because although several curses were pronounced by God,
one of them was NOT total depravity.
And out of nowhere in Gen 4 we see men "began to call out to the Lord", with NO
indication of being enabled or granted some special ability or being somehow chosen.
If this bedrock doctrine was so true, I should think the Bible would be very clear about it
in this part of the Bible where the very reason we are depraved is revealed.
Based on all this and the fact that man is created in the image of God,
I think it is clear that:
1) Man IS able to recognize sin and understand his condition - he is NOT 100% depraved.
2) Man possesses a moral ability to choose to sin or not - he is NOT 100% depraved.
Lets use logic for a moment:
If God is a just God, he condemns no man for something he is not responsible for.
If we are to be held morally responsible for our sin, then we must be free to choose.
But determinism says we are not free to choose.
Conclusion: Although God is just and we are not free to choose,
we are held morally responsible for our actions.
You know this makes no sense because the one of the premises are not true.
You decide which one.
The reality of human behavior also gives light:
Can a pagan quit watching porn? Quit drugs? Quit taking the Lord's name in vain?
Stop lusting after his neighbors wife? Stop stealing? Regret a murder?
You can say its all sin, but the truth is they ARE moral acts. True they are not
pleasing to God because the pagan is not in realtionship with God, but that
does not mean they are not moral acts - if a saved person did them we would
consider them acts of righteousness, no?
If you acknowledge men can do these things of sheer will power
you are admitting he is capable of a moral decision.
How can this be possible if he is "totally depraved"?
It is because every man born retains that "spark" of moral ability that Adam
possessed, even though he became "depraved" after sinning.
And this "spark" is what gives wicked men the ability to repent.
Eze 18:31-32:
Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall.
Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit.
Why will you die, O house of Israel?
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD.
Repent and live!
Yes, repent and live!
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 6:32:10 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2289
Status: online
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quote:
KELMAN: Yep, it's beyond "odd". Imagine a Christian distaining being connected to God? It should be the prayer and hope of every Christian to be more and more controlled by and connected to God. Truly, these are "apron strings" no Christian should ever desire to cut.
So now its "apron strings"?
Dependence is much different from determinism, friend.
I agree with everything you say here.
Cutting the apron strings is definitely bad.
But if you say you are a puppet, what are you going to do about sin?
Can't you see?
If everything you do is determined by God, who makes you sin?
Will you even admit God lets go of the strings from time to time?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 10:40:24 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1594
Joined: 12/2/2006
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rwe2156,
quote:
WHY does this have ANYTHING to do with US pleasing God?
Why dont you just accept the text without trying to pick it apart? He does it for His good pleasure so shouldn't that be enough?
If He is pleased with His work and it gives Him good pleasure....why am I going to be displeased?
There is a purpose for everything.........even sin.
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
quote:
YOU cannot please God unless YOU are spirit filled and YOU are walking in the light.
If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
I confess to you and God today that I am a sinner. I do not deserve salvation but deserve His wrath. My faith is weak and my own heart is filthy. I am in need of Jesus Christ. I do not love God or my fellow man the way I should and need to be forgiven. Are we in fellowship with one another as we walk in this light?
quote:
If WE cannot do ANYTHING unless we are induced or forced by God IT IS MEANINGLESS!
God and His force or power is not anything meaningless to me. His power is the force that overcomes darkness in us.
For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction.
quote:
If God is most pleased when WE are obedient to HIM, and WE can choose to sin, the WE have the ability to please God.
Again, I confess to you and God that I am a sinner. I am disobedient and deserve His wrath. I deserve nothing good from God at all. It is a miracle and a blessing that He has granted me one plate of food for I certainly do not deserve it. My faith is many times weak and my heart is filthy when compared to the perfection and faithfulness found in Jesus Christ. I never seem to love God or my fellow man exactly the way I should in perfect obedience. If I was to preach to you today that sin was not in me I would be totally deceived and the truth would not be in me. I cannot point you to myself as if I am the model of sinless perfection that is to be looked upon with any awe.
I do not want to preach to you and have you focus on me and my ability or supposed greatness or power in any way. I can preach to you and point you to Jesus Christ and His perfection, His power, His ability, and His faithfulness.
6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth.
7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Now when God looks at people in Christ....He sees Jesus Christ because they are in Christ.
In all reality from His standpoint....they are not even sinners anymore.
They already died and were made alive "in Christ".
As for any of this being meaningless;
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
How many good works, which good works?.....I will leave that in the hands of the One that knows best.
None of it is meaningless to me.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 1:36:13 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2289
Status: online
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quote:
KJB: He does it for His good pleasure so shouldn't that be enough?
I'm not "picking the text apart", I am asking you a simple question.
I believe we CAN please God and it is of OUR own choosing and ability
when WE are spirit-filled, just like God is not pleased when WE choose to sin.
For you, there can be no OUR, WE, US, I or ME in this equation.
You still have no answer to this question:
When we sin, is God pleased with us? Who is in control then?
I fully understand why this gives a determinist trouble.
Its a just plain ugly dilemma.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 1:38:57 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7642
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
rwe2156,
quote:
You think Adam hated God when he sinned?
Please tell me where it is stated that Adam lost all ability?
There are other curses listed, but no mention of man being totally unable.
Nice attempt to divert. 
20Everyone (which does not exclude Adam and Cornelius) who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
Rather...nice attempt to mis-read the Word of God. The verse doesn't say "everyone does evil". It actually says, "everyone WHO does evil". Do you see the difference? Apparently not.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 1:41:13 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7642
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace,
quote:
But, you still sin, do you not? Does that please God, KJ?
Or, do you think that since (in light of your theology that God causes sin) that He is pleased when He causes you to sin?
One more time even in light of your diversion;
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."
Now all you have to do is figure out how to reconcile what you think contradicts!
No, all you have to do is just answer my question. Seems you have a knatch for not answering them. Your verse doesn't address the issue in my question.
quote:
I honestly dont think you can do it.
I honestly don't think you can answer my questions.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 1:47:59 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7642
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Are you sure you mean John 8:24?....because there's nothing in that verse to suggest Christ "promised" salvation to the non-elect.
Jesus was very clear in what He said. It was the truth, and He phrased it in a "if...then" proposition. It is a conditional statement. IF this...THEN that.
Jesus' method of teaching the Gospel is not limited to this verse.
That's right. I never said it was. What the whole point is here is that Jesus EVANGELIZED the non-elect with a promise. Can you address the issue?
quote:
He teaches in this precise manner in many many places. Nor, was it a "promise" to the non-elect. It was an explanation of the Gospel.
So, you think when He said, "you WILL die in your sins, UNLESS you believe in Me" that wasn't a promise? What was it? A suggestion?
Are you saying when Jesus told the non-elect that they WILL die in their sins UNLESS they believed in Him, He wasn't making them a promise? Do you think He couldn't promise the outcome of what He said to them?
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He simply speaks the truth to all "believe on me and be saved". And this is precisely how He tells His apostles to preach the Word - to all. Correct. iow, there isn't anyone who can't believe and be saved. But, calvinism denies that in their theology. You want to use your version of "if...then" here; and, it doesn't work.
Why doesn't it "work" here? Just because it totally dismantles your theology, is that the reason? What Jesus said to the non-elect can be understood by anyone with an elementary education. Maybe you aren't able to understand what His words meant. That, in itself, doesn't mean it doesn't "work". It means that your "understanding" of what He said doesn't work.
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God has elected and the names were written in the Book of Life "from before the foundation of the world" You misconstrue God's method of getting the Gospel to the elect with some "promise" being made to the non-elect.
I have misconstrued nothing. I know what He said. It was very clear. He was promising salvation to the non-elect, and you cannot admit it. Your denial doesn't make it go away.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 1:51:12 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1594
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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rwe2156,
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Who says we have to please God in order to be saved? Surely he is pleased when one sinner repents, but only because we have met the condition.
No one is saying the "certain knowledge of God" men possess is salvific.
I am saying it is another proof that man is NOT 100% depraved; that the so-called depraved creature IS capable of moral decisions.
I hear a lot about moral decisions on this thread along with choosing ice cream flavors, burgers instead of pizza,......etc.
In the eyes of God this sums it all up;
We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.
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This ability to recognize our sin and understand the consequences of our sin is what can "bring us to our senses" in order to repent.
You will ask, why does one man respond and another does not? I don't know all the answers to this question. If one man's pride keeps him from repenting, who determined that man would have so much pride? I don't know.
It is a simple answer to a simple question. All you have to do is accept the simple answer. It is the work of God in the human heart. That is the difference why. People do not like that answer because it goes against the grain of man and his natural heart. But that is the answer. God is the One that causes men to respond and many people hate that thought. It does not speak very favorably of man at all and actually leaves him as totally helpless in the entire situation.
Romans 5 here is speaking about people that now have faith and that can be seen by reading Romans 5:1 onward.
6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Does that paint some sort of pretty picture about man and human ability? Helpless and ungodly?
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Why are we taught it is so hard for a rich man to be saved if only the elect are saved?
The "how hard" He used was an impossiblity....for men that is. How impossible? Like a camel going through the eye of a needle which is utterly impossible....for a camel that is.
“Who then can be saved?”......“The things which are impossible with men are possible with God”.
So who can be saved? Those that God saves obviously, for nothing is impossible for Him. He can even save rich men!
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I think part of the answer lies in Rom 2:5,8.
The answer was already given in the same text....."things which are impossible with men are possible with God”. It is not giving men any credit to themselves on a probability factor or possibility clause that has to do with men. Things that are impossible with men....are possible with God.
Total inability and impossibility (on the part of men) never hinders, restricts, or ultimately resists what is possible for God to do. God is able to save anyone at all from the uttermost to the guttermost because even though it always remains impossible for men....it is not impossible for God.
As for Romans 2, it certainly puts no good ammo of my own in my own ammo belt. If you wish to commend yourself for persisting in all sorts of good without God being the cause....thats up to you.
I cant do it. I cant find it in myself to do it. I think it much more prudent for me to ask for mercy and forgiveness. I am not looking forward to the day that I stand face to face with God and try to tell Him about my obedience and persistance in doing good.
I am quite thankful, content, and happy with the blessing of being forgiven and I have nothing to add to that to make it better than what He has already done.
Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him.
If that is not enough....what is? Do you think there is something I could add to His grace?
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I believe that Adam, by virture of eating the fruit, possessed the ability to know evil and sin.
I don't see how that can be debateable.
Here is the problem for the Calvinist: Adam was NOT "totally depraved" afterward!!
To the contrary, Adam not only knew he sinned, but was fearful of the consequences of his sin!
He was not afraid of God's voice - he had heard it many times before - this is a silly argument.
No, he hid before he ever heard God's voice. He was afraid because he knew he had disobeyed
his creator and was now subject to the wrath of God - he thought he would die.
But rather than wiping him off the face of the earth, God entered into a redemptive relationship
with man, and the same ability Adam had to choose remained.
There is no problem for the Calvinist. Calvinists do not have the desire to preach about their ability and that is not a problem at all. They understand the total impossibility of the situation they were in. They understand their fallen nature and that this condition they were in did not cause them to come into the Light. They understand that they were not obedient but were rebels that by nature hated the Light. They leave no room for self praise in any way shape or form. They understand the verdict and they do not oppose it.
This is not a problem at all....this is conviction by the Holy Spirit. They have been convicted to the heart by God. They know the heart of the problem was the problem of the heart. They know it is better just to deny themselves and give up. Why keep fighting the truth when it has been made known? The Calvinist lays down and surrenders.....gives up. And that is the best thing to do.
I see no problem at all with that.
The human heart is wicked and the Calvinists dont argue the fact as if something in their own heart caused them to come into the Light. They just submit and agree with God and His verdict.
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
Something must have caused them to come into the Light and they are totally aware of this. That is why instead of giving any sort of self ability praise or credit at all towards themselves....they would rather give all praise to God that saved them....the God that called them with a calling that caused them to do what they would have otherwise never have done.
They give praise to the One that called them out of darkness and into His wonderful Light. Some people stumble because they disobey the message, and it may not sit well in your feelings, but it is what they were destined for.
They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.
Those that believe the message are a chosen people. They believe the message because God chose them to do so. He has called them out of darkness and into His wonderful Light by His power. They know it must have been that way because by nature people do not come. They must have been drawn with an actual power and force that overcame the natural hatred and resistance.
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
That is what the Calvinist wants to do now. Declare the praises of him who called them out of darkness and into His wonderful light. They do not want to preach on their ability, but His.
I as a Christian (Christian Calvinist) cannot preach on my ability. I see myself as a sinner and sin is evil so I see myself as evil. I do see a redemptive relationship because I have come into the Light. This coming into the Light was not from me.
I am the resistance. I am the evil. I am the sinner. I am the lover of darkness.
The Light (power of God) overcame the darkness in me and now I walk in the Light. It does not mean that I am the model of obedience or perfection. Even my sin has a purpose. What might be the purpose?
Maybe it is like a thorn in my side always reminding me of my weakness and disability (not my strength and ability) so I remain dependent (not independent and free) on the One that set me free (from unbelief and teh wrath I deserve).
This concept is clearly put forth in the London Baptist Confession of faith and Scripture text is provided to show why God leaves even His own children in sin. The same sin that reminds me of my dependence on Him is the same sin in another that will condemn the other.
Why? Because I am already forgiven and am not even under the law anymore. I am under grace (unmerited favor). The guy that is not under grace is under the law and his sin is not forgiven.
This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
What overcame the hatred I had for the light? What caused me to turn to Jesus Christ?
John 6:37; All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. John 6:44; No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. John 10:29; My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. John 17:9; I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which you have given me; for they are yours.
Those are the answers.
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Conclusion: Men are moral free agents held responsible for their sin.
Men will be held responsible because of one fact. They will all be made to respond by force.
One day all men will be forced to stand before God and none will escape His hand.
There will be no options like choosing burgers instead of fish sticks. No one will have enough free-will or choices to change the matter.
They will have to respond because He is capable of making them all respond and they simply have no other options. He has the power to hold them.
The best bet for anyone and everyone is to submit, bow down, and plead for mercy!
It just so happens the human heart is totally against that idea.
Who caused the heart to desire sin, who made it that way, who controls it, who binds it, is Satan overpowering,.....and millions of other questions are going to be irrelevant to the fact that God will hold all men responsible for their own sins.
The best self defense is to abandon all self defense!
Dont try to blame God, wives, children, Satan.....or whomever.
I am not going to try and pass the buck anywhere at all when all I have to do is ask for His mercy.
I come to the foot of the cross with nothing in my hands to bring Him except for my filth.
He said He will make the trade willingly.
He takes my filth upon Himself and exchanges it for His righteousness.
What in blazes do I want to add to that?
If I come to the foot of the cross......I can know for certain that it was Him that brought me there.
In His power I am content.
I will try to respond to more of your post later.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 1:59:12 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7642
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
He's been asked frequently, and hasn't answered yet. I don't think he has one. You do realize that is a lie, don't you? You've responded, yes. That much is true. But you didn't address the issue, so why do you call that an answer? Since I did address the issue, that's simply another lie.
Nonsense, kelman. You've NEVER addressed WHY Jesus promised salvation to the non-elect in John 8:24. You deny that He did. That doesn't address it.
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I've asked a number of free willers a question they won't answer. The last time just a few posts ago to FG.
"If God knows you will choose not to obey are you ABLE to choose to obey?"
Yes, I am able.
That is most amazing. In four short words, you declare you are able to choose against God's knowledge. You further reveal that God has no "certain" knowledge and is a most fallible God. The god you speak of here, FG, cannot be found in Scripture.
I never said I could "choose against God's knowledge". You really know how to mis-read and mis-characterize a lot of things. If you would only read your very own question a little slower, you might realize that you set up a choice; to obey or not to obey. For a choice to occur, which you set up as a choice, there has to be options. In the case of obeying, it is either to obey or not to obey. Even though God knows I will choose not to obey, that in itself demonstrates my ABILITY to obey, for it to really be a choice in the first place.
So, I haven't "chosen against God's knowledge" at all. What I answered is that I HAVE the ability to obey or not. In your scenario, I chose not to, but because it was a choice, I also HAVE the ability to obey. If I can ONLY disobey, it isn't a choice at all. But your scenario called it a choice.
Next time, I suggest you read your own questions a little more thoroughly before you present them to others.
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But God knows in my freedom of choice that I won't. This sentence is superfluous, in addition to being senseless, since you've already declared "Yes, I am able".
It was a choice, remember? Your comments reveal you don't even understand your own question.
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The God of Scripture is omniscient, He knows all things perfectly and certainly. It is not possible with the God of Scripture for you to do what He knows you will not do. If that possibility existed, that god could be wrong.
You are merely quite confused, kelman. He knows my abilities and freedom of choice. So, even though He knows which choice I will make, that doesn't eliminate my ability to choose the other way.
I think the problem here is that your "puppet mentality" keeps getting in your way. To you, God controls all our thoughts and choices. Yet you and others want to admit our choices are free.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 2:04:23 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7642
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
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It's just that darned pesky puppet thing that keeps getting in your way of clear thinking. If you could cut the strings, you could see things in the proper light.
Imagine a Christian distaining being connected to God? It should be the prayer and hope of every Christian to be more and more controlled by and connected to God. Truly, these are "apron strings" no Christian should ever desire to cut.
kelman, if you would have read a bit more closely, you would have known I was speaking of the "puppet strings" you think are attached to you.
The idea of "apron strings" is actually a good one! But I wasn't speaking of those kind of strings. My posts are always clear, so your feeble attempt to make it look as though I am trying to get you to cut any "apron strings" is ludicrous. It is the "puppet mentality" type of strings that I speak of.
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I know you and the other reformers would never wish anyone to sever their connection to God. A really nice post, KJB and very encouraging, thanks.
As if I do. Come on, kelman. Your absurd attempt to mis-characterize my comments to you are obvious to everyone.
Jesus promised salvation to the non-elect. Any grade schooler would understand that from John 8:24. Why don't you?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 2:12:52 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1577
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
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Since I did address the issue, that's simply another lie. Nonsense, kelman. You've NEVER addressed WHY Jesus promised salvation to the non-elect in John 8:24. You deny that He did. That doesn't address it.
kelman, we have here another example of - you haven't addressed or answered the question because you don't agree with the premise of the question.
Some appear to think so stiffly in their own paradigm that they aren't able to see other possibilities. Some are so unwilling to see outside their own world of thinking that they are unable to understand. Sounds kind of like the predicament of fallen man - unwilling and thus unable. Keep up the good posts.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 2:19:11 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1577
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Jesus promised salvation to the non-elect. Any grade schooler would understand that from John 8:24. Why don't you?
I guess opinions must run rampant in grade school also. I think most that have advanced beyond the grade school level would agree that Jesus is not promising salvation to the non-elect at all. Rather, He is explaining why they will die in their sins.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 2:22:06 PM
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