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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 11:12:15 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
This is the verdict:
Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
I didn't see any descriptor such as "all" here. Why do you think this verse speaks of everyone? Seems the calvinists want "men" to refer to everyone, BUT when the Bible does speak of everyone, they want to limit it to less than everyone. Why is that?
Are your legs gettin' tired Free ?
You are dancing between the raindrops !
This is where your teaching becomes real muddy !
You are again touting your own unique excellence.
You really weren't in the dark ?
You had ability to see, to seek, to want God !
You were somehow equipped to navigate in darkness ?
What do you call this latest man-invention of yours ?
Manna, why do you continue to dodge the question? You are full of "cute"  little comments, but where's any substance to you? If you had any, you would address my question intelligently.
I would like to see some substance; all you give is fluff.
As to your comment re: my "own unique excellence", that has been debunked thoroughly.
As to being "in the dark", I was, but God has shined His light to everyone.
As to my ability to see, seek want; God created you and me to seek Him, and He made evident to everyone His existence, power, nature, and attributes, so that they were clearly seen, so yes, as to all men.
As to your comment re: being "equipped to navigate in darkness", God created mankind to seek Him, so yes, again.
And, what you erroneously call a "man-made invention", is really just the human race, which God created.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 11:20:34 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Show us where Jesus tells people to create faith ?
What a silly request. I can show you multiple verses where Jesus tells people to believe. And He chided those with little faith, and He praises others for their great faith. What else would you like?
quote:
Where does Jesus say to cause your own faith ?
He tells us to believe. John 3:15,16, 36, 5:24, 6:40, 11:25-27. What else would you like?
quote:
This thinking is idiotic and totally without substance.[/qutoe]
Yes, and I'd appreciate it if you'd quit it.
Why does a man suddenly convince himself there is a God, when a moment ago the man could care less ?
How about when God makes evident His existence, power, nature, and attributes, so that they are clearly seen, per Rom 1:19,20. And, just to be clear, man doesn't convince himself, as you are erroneously thinking, it is the evidence that God gives to everyone that convinces man.
quote:
What was revealed to the man by an outside agent ?
I'll let you read Romans 1:19 and 20 all by yourself.
quote:
What changed the man's perspective and realization ?
The better question is "Who", and the answer is God.
quote:
Are you saying the man somehow within his evil soul came up with foreign concepts and understanding(s) about God that previously the man knew nothing of ?
Absolutely not, Manna. Again, please read Romans 1:19 and 20 which will directly answer your question.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 11:28:20 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
"If God knows you will choose not to obey are you ABLE to choose to obey?"
Yes, I am able. But God knows in my freedom of choice that I won't.
Won't or can't...same outcome.
So what? There is a huge difference between "won't" and "can't", which you seem to not understand. This isn't about "outcome" but rather on mechanics.
You mean like FGM robotic, formula rituals...?
I have no idea to what you are referring here. Please clarify.
quote:
Accept, invite, make a decision, choose, declare...
Again, you merely demonstrate your ignorance of the FGM. The only "formula" that is used is this one: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." Does that "formula" offend your sensibilities? Why? It was good enough for the Apostle Paul.
quote:
Huh, the destination doesn't matter...Why would you say that ? Why does that even mean ?
I think you are not following this very well. You had made the point that the "outcome" of our choices is the same, whether by God's cause, or our own freedom of choice. I didn't speak of "destination" at all, as you are erroneously suggesting here. I said the issue wasn't about the "outcome" but rather the mechanics, which you ignored. Which I call dodge ball. You guys sure like to play that game. So, none of your questions here re: "destination" have any relevance.
quote:
What you are saying sounds like it is equally important getting yourself to Heaven as actually getting there !
Why do you continually try to characterize the FW pov as one of "getting yourself to Heaven", when that nonsense has been thoroughly been debunked.
I think you are not being intellectually honest here. No one "gets themselves to Heaven", so you can quit trying to mischaracterize the FW pov as doing so.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 11:29:17 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Even Jesus told the non-elect how to avoid dying in their sins. What He said would be a lie IF He hadn't died for them.
I concur with kelman's earlier post.
What exactly in John 8 are you declaring ?
There is a blatant dichotomy in John 8 beginning with the woman caught in adultery. The woman deserved condemnation, but Jesus showed the elect sinner God's Sovereign mercy. The Pharisees, who because of their carnally managed internal belief system, convinced themselves (in error) that they somehow had escaped condemnation (but rather they were under God's condemnation due to their stubborn reliance on self) because of their own holiness and decision-making abilities, and their unique mechanical, formulaic, ritualistic approach to God. The Pharisee had a manmade religiousity born of his own nature, and not born of the righteousness of God, and therefore chose his way over THE WAY, the broad road, and not the narrow way, the way that "SEEMETH" right, but in the end leadeth unto death.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 11:31:48 AM
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rwe2156
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
Did you look at the Scriptures I cited?
(Eze 33:11, 14 and 19 to Jer 26:3 to Mark 6:12 to Acts 17:30 to Rev 2:21. )
If you care to study the "other side" there are some interesting
articles here that give the other perspective on depravity.
Sorry for the length.
No, I do not think you are a staunch Calvinist.
I will have to read them Monday.
Before I do, I will say that I believe in depravity.
Yesterday, I was thinking of the corruption that still remains in me and all the places I fail.
After praying for forgiveness and yes strength to be better, this scripture comes to me.
(Matthew 26:41) The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."
I thought to my self "good grief". If it is this difficult for us Christians who have the Holy Spirit in us to not fail because of the weakness of flesh.How much more difficult was it before I had the Spirit?
I am a staunch believer that I am what I am by the grace of God.
If God hadn't stepped in and saved me from the captivity of Satan, the world, and even myself, I could have been Judas or King Saul or Pharaoh.
I don't think I was better than any of them.
talk to you later brother,
TD
I agree with everything you just said.
As for being held a captive of Satan, I disagree.
Holds nobody captive, its our sin nature that does that.
We are free from sin, no longer slaves to sin, not Satan.
Satan is a dog on a chain, bro! That sucker is nothing but bluff
and can operate only within the cage God has put him. The
very sound of the name of Jesus sends him fleeing!
He is easily defeated. He can only reign if we let him. As long
as we are spirit filled all he can do is stomp around
As for depravity, yes, we do retain our sin nature, but we
are not 100% depraved. Adam's guilt , Felix's trembling,
Lydia,Cornelius, the thief on the cross and the Roman
soldier prove that.
I, too, agree we are depraved, even after we are saved!
But the real issue is does this depravity render us 100% unable,
and there is the crux of the issue Calvinism must deal with.
Because if man is 100% unable to choose, and God determines
everything, what are you going to do with sin? Compatibilism
is not the answer although it might soothe the guilt
caused by determinism's character assault on God.
Try looking at the other views of depravity. I have found varying
views even withing the reformed camp.
Some of the POV's you find on this thread are not in
the mainstream of reformed theology.
God Bless.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 11:39:11 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
OK. "everyone who does evil" doesn't equate to "everyone does evil". Maybe the calvinists need reading glasses. 
Another new teaching folks !!! Not everyone does evil...there it is !
Show me where Cornelius or Lydia did "evil". How about Job? Joseph? We are ALL sinners. That is not being debated.
quote:
Another example from the REAL elitists !
Not at all. It's just a matter of properly dividing the Word of Truth. Here is some "context" to help you understand John 3:19.
v.18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
v.19 And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil."
Those who reject Jesus Christ are evil because they have not believed, Manna. That is what is evil. This isn't about sin in general, as you erroneously assume.
This passage is about failure to believe in Christ, which is called "evil".
We have no idea when makes Himself evident to mankind. But we do know that He does. Until man is aware of God, he can't seek Him. It is when man rejects what God makes evident that man becomes evil.
I suppose you consider infants as "evil". Or, maybe just the non-elect ones. 
And you cannot explain WHY Jesus promised salvation to the non-elect. All you can do is deny that He did, but His words are certainly clear enough.
quote:
What about no one being righteous ?
What about it? Everyone is under sin, Rom 3:9, and everyone has sinned, Rom 3:23. Your equating sin as evil is erroneous. Evil is rejection of truth.
When you sin, or generally, any believer, if that's too personal for you (as it was for KJ) are you being evil?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 11:45:14 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Even Jesus told the non-elect how to avoid dying in their sins. What He said would be a lie IF He hadn't died for them.
I concur with kelman's earlier post.
Of course you would. You are fellow campers.
quote:
What exactly in John 8 are you declaring ?
Just what Jesus promised to the crowd, which was made up of elect and non-elect people. He gave them an "if...then" scenario, which is cause and effect relationship. IF they believed, they would NOT die in their sins. Or, IF they did NOT believe, they WILL die in their sins.
This is a clear promise of outcome based on the conditional clause of "if".
quote:
There is a blatant dichotomy in John 8 beginning with the woman caught in adultery. The woman deserved condemnation, but Jesus showed the elect sinner God's Sovereign mercy.
Actually, the better texts don't include this part as Scripture. It was added later on, so your comments are irrelevant.
quote:
The Pharisees, who because of their carnally managed internal belief system, convinced themselves (in error) that they somehow had escaped condemnation (but rather they were under God's condemnation due to their stubborn reliance on self) because of their own holiness and decision-making abilities, and their unique mechanical, formulaic, ritualistic approach to God. The Pharisee had a manmade religiousity born of his own nature, and not born of the righteousness of God, and therefore chose his way over THE WAY, the broad road, and not the narrow way, the way that "SEEMETH" right, but in the end leadeth unto death.
And just what does any of this have to do with what Jesus essentially promised them? Nothing. Jesus evangelized the non-elect, which is something calvinism cannot explain.
If Christ had not died for everyone, what He said to the non-elect was a lie, since they could neither believe nor avoid dying in their sins.
But, since Christ DID die for everyone, what He said to them was a promise of consequence based on whether they believed or not in Him.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 12:05:11 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 797
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
Do you take credit for your seeking?
Your faith?
Your repentance?
If you do then brag about it. You did it. Boast a little in it. Yep, I brag about purposfuly, willingly, choosing to be imoral, doing wrong, being perverted...ect... sinning.
I baost about admitting my wretched state.
I am' proude of acknowledging that I can not earn favore with God.
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT, "brag about it & Boast a little in it"?
Furthermore, what is the purpose of God determining that I do something that HE hates.
Example:
God would be saying (according to your theology/doctrines), "I hate sin, but I am determined to cause all mankind to do what I hate & sin against me. Then I will ambiguously, arbitrarliy elect only a few and condemn the rest, just because I will not give them faith or repentance."
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 12:08:04 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
But, since Christ DID die for everyone, what He said to them was a promise of consequence based on whether they believed or not in Him.
Who is your source of info ?
Acts 2:39 (King James Version)
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
IOW---NOT everyone !!!
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 12:11:38 PM
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Mannamuncher
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Limited promise = limited atonement
Romans 9:8 (King James Version)
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 12:15:42 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
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Where does one get promises for all ?
Where did God promise "to save all men" ?
Galatians 3:17-19 (New American Standard Bible)
17What I am saying is this: the Law, which came (A)four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.
18For (B)if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but (C)God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
19(D)Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been (E)ordained through angels (F)by the agency of a mediator, until (G)the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 12:18:23 PM
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Mannamuncher
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Jacob and Esau...
The promise came through one.
Where have we heard that before...
Galatians 4:28 (King James Version)
28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 12:29:56 PM
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Mannamuncher
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Is the promise made to ALL Gentiles ?
Ephesians 3:6 (King James Version)
6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Sounds like it's for the elect (US)
Titus 1:1-2 (King James Version)
1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Given to heirs ONLY...(not all, is it ?)
Hebrews 6:17 (King James Version)
17Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:
The CALLED might receive the promise-
Hebrews 9:15 (King James Version)
15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
More "WE" and "US"
2 Peter 1:3-4 (New King James Version)3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 12:44:52 PM
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KingJamesBond
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Mannamuncher,
quote:
Another new teaching folks !!!
Not everyone does evil...there it is !
Another example from the REAL elitists !
What about no one being righteous ?
Actually you are correct in that is what their POV really boils down to.
Give a free-willer a list of sins and the first thing they want to do is defend themselves from many sins on the list.
Its like the Publican Pharisee issue.
FreeGrace does not even see unbelief as sin for crying out loud!
If we go back and read many of his posts he does not even equate faith or the lack of faith as being good or evil.
They think it is some sort of neutral act of intellectual nothingness and this faith (that some of them wont even declare as a good thing) comes from within themselves.
Do they teach their kids this stuff.....that believing in Jesus Christ is neither good nor bad but is just some sort of neutral act of the mind like choosing french fries instead of onion rings at Burger King?
If we browse back through their posts we would see that to some of them having faith is not even a good or bad thing, it is just some sort of intellectually mechanical neutral phase of the mind mumbo jumbo topped with lots of yada yada yada.
You can show them;
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
and you would think they would jump up and fight tooth and nail to defend the verdict as Jesus gave it in the text.......but oh no.......that would injure their fairy tale!
Instead of jumping up and defending what Jesus said they go straight into defending THEMSELVES with something like the following;
quote:
OK. "everyone who does evil" doesn't equate to "everyone does evil". Maybe the calvinists need reading glasses.
I dont think Calvinists need reading glasses.
Some people need a deep conviction of how bad they really were.
Like I said.....it all starts out with an improper understanding of evil (depravity) and how severely it has affected them.
And to think that one of them would actually implore another Christian to cut any type of "God control" so they could be free to see the light is downright astonishing to say the least!
I cant believe some of the "stuff" in this free-will POV jargon that comes spilling out.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 12:49:37 PM
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KingJamesBond
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Mannamuncher,
Here we have it;
quote:
Show me where Cornelius or Lydia did "evil". How about Job? Joseph? We are ALL sinners. That is not being debated.
There might be a new batch of free-will superhero posters on sale at Walmart real soon!
LOL
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 2:08:11 PM
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KingJamesBond
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FreeGrace,
It sure would be sort of neat if you would quit adding bene placito to the intent of my posts.
quote:
I think I would be afraid too if I was Adam and I heard the voice of God coming down from heaven...and that may of been how they heard it.
quote:
In the first place, KJ, the voice didn't "come down from heaven". The Lord was walking in the garden "in the cool of the day", so says Scripture. Gen 3:8
It was speculation on how they may have heard the voice of God.....not whether God was walking in the garden, hovering, or everywhere at once. Since it was only speculation on how His voice may have sounded, I would not teach it as an absolute.
I just have this gut feeling (yes FreeGrace, only a gut feeling) that when they heard the voice of God it would have been pronounced, clear, penetrating, defined, and probably quite shocking.
I would venture to guess (yes, only guess) that it may have even been like surround sound and and made the biggest and best stereo surround sound system sound like a big pile of cheap garbage.
In any event.....the intent of my post was not to clarfiy where God was or was not, but how He may have sounded to them.
It was a way to describe how such a voice may have terrified any person, especially ones that were guilty of sin.
I know this is going out on a limb here, but do you suppose there may have been just the slight possibility that Adam wanted to hide not because Adam was capable of being good, but could now see the difference between good and evil when good came upon him?
Maybe it was never meant to show Adam or us any ability of being good......but rather that he was now aware of good (God) and evil (Adam) and had the desire to run away from good and not towards.
Probably would not do much for the free-will POV though.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 2:12:59 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
But, since Christ DID die for everyone, what He said to them was a promise of consequence based on whether they believed or not in Him.
Who is your source of info ?
Jesus. The Word of God. Scripture. Is that enough?
quote:
Acts 2:39 (King James Version)
39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
Are you seriously trying to "pit" Scripture against Scripture? Get real, please.
What Jesus promised to the non-elect is very clear in John 8:24 whether you can admit it or not. He promised salvation to the non-elect IF they believed, or dying in their sins IF they did NOT believe.
Your (mis)use of Acts 2:39 is typical. Where does it say anywhere in that text that God causes belief? It's just not there.
Are you aware that the word for "call" means to be invited? Probably not, from your post.
quote:
IOW---NOT everyone !!!
If He didn't die for everyone, then His promise to the non-elect was just a LIE, is that it, Manna?
Your claims of limited propitiation don't fly in light of God's Word.
Your attempt to "trump" John 8:24 with Acts 2:39 is pitiful.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 2:17:43 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Limited promise = limited atonement
Right. But the promise was to the non-elect as well as to the elect, so your limited view of theology misses the mark by a very wide margin.
1 John 2:2 says that Christ is the propitiation of the sins of the whole world. There is NO mention of the elect anywhere in John's text, and the calvinistic attempt to make "whole world" mean "whole world of the elect" has no basis for honest exegesis.
quote:
Romans 9:8 (King James Version)
8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Who are the children of the promise? Believers.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 2:22:09 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Where does one get promises for all ?
The crowd in John 8 was comprised of both elect (pre-faith) and non-elect (dhilcren of the devil). So, who do you think Jesus left out? None. Since none are left out of what He said, that equates to ALL. Simple math.
quote:
Where did God promise "to save all men" ?
What you fail to realize is that the promise of God is a conditional one. Jesus made that clear in John 8:24. IF they believed, they will NOT die in their sins. That is a promise. Or, IF they do NOT believe, they WILL die in their sins. That is also a promise. He addressed both the elect and non-elect with that promise. That clearly indicates that He was to die for all of them, or what He said to the non-elect was a lie. Are you willing to admit that?
quote:
Galatians 3:17-19 (New American Standard Bible)
17What I am saying is this: the Law, which came (A)four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.
18For (B)if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but (C)God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.
19(D)Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been (E)ordained through angels (F)by the agency of a mediator, until (G)the seed would come to whom the promise had been made.
Once again, the calvinists just provide a verse or several, all without any explanation, as if the verse alone will support what they claim.
Manna, what do these verses mean to you?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 2:29:53 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Galatians 4:28 (King James Version)
28Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
And what does this verse mean to you, Manna?
If I dare suggest you look at the context, you'll see what that promise is about. Begin in v.22. "For it is written that Abraham had 2 sons, one by the bondwoman, and one by the free woman. v.23 But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise." What was that promise? That Abrahman, though sexually dead, being 99 yrs old, would have a son promised by God.
I think you need to categorize your "promises" a bit, and be a little more careful of just trying to find verses with words in them that you want to use to support your pov, even though they don't.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 2:33:59 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Is the promise made to ALL Gentiles ?
The promise of salvation through faith is to everyone.
quote:
Ephesians 3:6 (King James Version)
6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
Key word here is "in Christ". That indicates a believer.
quote:
Sounds like it's for the elect (US)
No, for believers, who become elect once they are "in Christ".
quote:
Titus 1:1-2 (King James Version)
1Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Yep, there it is: "according to the FAITH OF THE ELECT". It's all based on faith.
quote:
Given to heirs ONLY...(not all, is it ?)
All "heirs" are believers, Manna. What is your point?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 4:41:13 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1707
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Mannamuncher,
Here we have it;
quote:
Show me where Cornelius or Lydia did "evil". How about Job? Joseph? We are ALL sinners. That is not being debated.
There might be a new batch of free-will superhero posters on sale at Walmart real soon!
LOL
KJB
I guess there must be a distinction between "sin" and "evil" just as there is a distinction between "sinners" and "fools"; as if sin is not evil and sinners aren't fools.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 4:52:17 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1707
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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tdd1975,
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
tdd1975,
You have been posting many good responses to the free-willers and I have enjoyed reading them!
Your posts are clear, truthful, and understandable, so dont think you need to rephrase things just because people pretend they dont understand as they try to tear it all apart.
Their words and ideas are rendered meaningless when held to the truth no matter how much ability they have in having words and ideas.
This latest POV on Adam that is being pushed around is just another way free-willers can try to wiggle in some sort of "feely good" thing about mankind in an attempt to show that man can willingly all of his own see his evil and turn to Jesus Christ.
I agree with KJB, you are doing a great job. I was going to jump in on this but after reading your posts saw that it would be redundant.
I will say that fallen man has an awareness of God, but chooses to suppress it in unrighteousness. Kind of like overweight people who are conscious of calories but continue to eat bags of CORNelius CHIPS .
Keep up the good posts, I am enjoying them also.
Blessings,
SH
< Message edited by SureHope -- 9/6/2008 5:33:51 PM >
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 4:57:57 PM
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shemaromans
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