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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 7:49:28 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: willfs
I don't know if I am a true Calvinist. I know I believe along the lines of George Costanza on Sienfield. He once said that if he could ask God anything he would ask him what the reason was for his baldness. Costanza understands that God made us just like he wants us. He gave us the parents he wanted us to have and the traits he wanted for us. But from our point of view it all depends on two specific individuals deciding they will procreate. Then. one specific male sex cell out of millions happens to make its way to the female sex cell. All of it seems to be based on circumstance and human free will. And it is..... while at the same time it is all based on God's soveriegnty. God's soveign will and man's free will working at the same time. I can't explain it but I know the Bible talks about both, in relation to many things, even salvation.
Will -
If God is the author of the Law of Gravity, do you think he needs to determine when and
where every single leaf will fall?
If God is the author of Free Will, do you think he must determine every single
decision we make in order to remain who he is?
He KNOWS we will sin, but he does not predetermine what, where and when we will sin.
Nothing happens outside of God's will, but to account for evil, you cannot
believe determinist or any permutation of it. Compatibilism will not do either.
Either God determines everything that comes to pass, or he doesn't.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 8:01:45 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
"If God knows you will choose not to obey are you ABLE to choose to obey?"
AND, "If God knows you will choose NOT to obey, are you able to obey?"
Of course not. But not because God predetermined it, because in God's foreknowledge
it has already happened! So the question is moot.
You changed your mind about eating the jelly donut for breakfast this morning.
God determined you would not eat it?
You chose to watch porno on your computer and ended up in a divorce.
God determined you would do it?
I think in God's "parallel universe" of time and space the event has already occurred, KMan.
Therefore, his foreknowledge of an event is not what makes it certain.
What makes it "certain" is to God it has already happened!
To God there is no past, present and future. Time is irrelevant to God.
God can move up and down the timeline of the universe and see every event.
God can interject himself in history anywhere and anytime he wants.
What is "foreknowledge" to us is simply "knowledge" to God.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 8:54:10 AM
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tdd1975
Posts: 425
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
Did you look at the Scriptures I cited?
(Eze 33:11, 14 and 19 to Jer 26:3 to Mark 6:12 to Acts 17:30 to Rev 2:21. )
If you care to study the "other side" there are some interesting
articles here that give the other perspective on depravity.
Sorry for the length.
No, I do not think you are a staunch Calvinist.
I will have to read them Monday.
Before I do, I will say that I believe in depravity.
Yesterday, I was thinking of the corruption that still remains in me and all the places I fail.
After praying for forgiveness and yes strength to be better, this scripture comes to me.
(Matthew 26:41) The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."
I thought to my self "good grief". If it is this difficult for us Christians who have the Holy Spirit in us to not fail because of the weakness of flesh.How much more difficult was it before I had the Spirit?
I am a staunch believer that I am what I am by the grace of God.
If God hadn't stepped in and saved me from the captivity of Satan, the world, and even myself, I could have been Judas or King Saul or Pharaoh.
I don't think I was better than any of them.
talk to you later brother,
TD
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 9:19:08 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
Then why did you say "if the purpose of God's Word is to go forth and save everyone as you say..."?
quote:
quote:
The question is what is God's will or intention for the word going forth?
to save believers
quote:
ESV(James 1:18) Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
His intention was to bring us forth by the word.
Yes, to save believers
Nope, that isn't what it says.
It says his will is to bring us forth.
And just who would "us" be? Believers.
quote:
Bring us forth from what?
From unbelief to belief.
You claim the verse "doesn't" say "to save believers", and now you say the verse says "to bring us forth (from unbelief to belief)". No, it doesn't say that either.
To "bring us forth" is clearly a reference to the new birth. So, "to bring us forth" refers to bringing us from unregeneration to regeneration. God only does that to believers.
quote:
From damnation to salvation.
Or, from unregeneration to regeneration, as I said.
quote:
The word comes to us while we are in unbelief.
Yep.
quote:
It's purpose is to bring us forth.
Yep. God's Word is the Source of regeneration. One has to believe God's Word.
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(John 6:63) It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is of no avail. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Amen!
quote:
How did the elect obtain it? By faith.
We agree that salvation is by faith.
(Romans 11:7) The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
They were called elect before they obtained it. They (we) were called elect before faith.
Where do you see that in Rom 11:7? There is NO mention of being elect before faith.
quote:
They didn't elect themselves with faith.
Correct. There is no disagreement on this point. You didn't even need to say it.
quote:
The elect obtained salvation with a faith granted to them.
Now, that is reformed rhetoric. You have zero Scriptural support for that.
quote:
That is the only way it can be sure and the word not fail.
What is really "sure" is that all who believe will be regenerated and saved.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 9:27:17 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1782
Joined: 12/2/2006
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tdd1975,
You have been posting many good responses to the free-willers and I have enjoyed reading them!
Your posts are clear, truthful, and understandable, so dont think you need to rephrase things just because people pretend they dont understand as they try to tear it all apart.
Their words and ideas are rendered meaningless when held to the truth no matter how much ability they have in having words and ideas.
This latest POV on Adam that is being pushed around is just another way free-willers can try to wiggle in some sort of "feely good" thing about mankind in an attempt to show that man can willingly all of his own see his evil and turn to Jesus Christ.
quote:
quote: rwe2156
OK.
Why were they afraid?
quote:
v8 because they heard the voice of the Lord coming.
They didn't go running into his arms like you guys are trying to depict.
They hid. They made excuses. They covered themselves.
They didn't seek God. They didn't repent. God came to them.
Notice how they never admit to something and just keep working so hard to keep their flawed POV going?
I think I would be afraid too if I was Adam and I heard the voice of God coming down from heaven...and that may of been how they heard it.
Free-willers say Adam knew about his guilt or sin but so what?
Big whoop de do! 
That sort of stuff has already been explained to rwe2156 in that even mobsters have a sense of guilt (a knowledge they are doing wrong) even when they rip off or snuff out other mobsters.
What free-willers try to prove is not in line with the determined Word of God.
God has already made a determined verdict and free-willers think that something about themselves is free to do above and beyond this verdict that God has already declared and determined that people just do not do.
This is the verdict:
Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
Adam not wanting to come into the Light or trying to hide is more evidence against their fairy tale POV and they dont even realize it. 
We already know that Adam displayed exactly what Jesus Christ said in John 3.
It was the same with Adam long ago, and it was the same when Jesus was speaking to a teacher of Israel named Nicodemus that did not understand such things.
Nothing new under the Son!
There is a determined verdict from Jesus Christ Himself.
It may not make man feel so good about himself but it is still a verdict;
.....men loved darkness instead of light.......Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light.....
This must clearly be speaking of turning to Jesus Christ in faith.....the faith that FreeGrace seems to think comes from within himself and not from God.
Free-willers always want to feel inside themselves that there was something different about them compared to the other guy even though there is nothing they can show that was different on the outside.
Men loved darkness instead of Light........period!
Those that love darkness do evil and those that do evil hate the Light and will not come into the Light....period!
Oh how they must hate those verdicts.
Now, on the other hand, if they prove to me that Cornelius and themselves are some sort of space aliens or angelic beings instead of mere men....I would have to let go of my POV and claim that the verdict might not apply to them but would depend on if they have ever done any evil.
It all starts out with an improper understanding of evil (depravity) and how severely it has affected them.
tdd1975, keep a-pushin the truth it is a pleasure to read it.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 9:31:07 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
Whoa!
That's not what I say. The purpose of the gospel is to reveal the good news.
And the good news is that salvation is for all who will believe.
I know you guys aren't universalists. So let me rphrase it a bit.
Good. Because we aren't.
quote:
The free will position is that it is God's will by the word to try and bring everyone forth?
Is that better?
No. Your use of "try" is absurd. God doesn't "try" anything, and the FW pov NEVER uses "try". Here is the "best" phrase: God's will IS to regenerate all or "whosoever" believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. What do you disagree with in this phrase?
quote:
But it is still wrong.
(James 1:18) Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth,
The text says that his will is to bring us forth.
Not try to bring us forth. But bring us forth.
You see, since I have just corrected your erroneous use of "try", your whole argument goes down the tubes. You are arguing against a false understanding of the FW position, just as Del has to keep reminding most of the calvinists here. 
quote:
(Romans 11:7) What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,
And how did the elect obtain it? Read ahead in Rom 11 to v.20, which says:
"Quite right, they (Israel) were broken off for their unbelief, but you (Gentile believers) stand by your faith."
Also, consider Rom 9:30-32, "What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith,b ut as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,"
The key throughout Scripture is on faith.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 9:34:37 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: willfs
I don't know if I am a true Calvinist. I know I believe along the lines of George Costanza on Sienfield.
I had no idea that he was a theologian! What one learns from this thread.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 9:45:22 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
kelman,
Can you, in light of calvinistic theology which claims that Christ didn't die for the non-elect, explain WHY Jesus promised salvation for the non-elect in John 8:24?
Are you sure you mean John 8:24?....because there's nothing in that verse to suggest Christ "promised" salvation to the non-elect.
Jesus was very clear in what He said. It was the truth, and He phrased it in a "if...then" proposition. It is a conditional statement. IF this...THEN that.
Here is exactly what He said: IF you believe in Me, THEN you will NOT die in your sins. Or do you disagree with this statement? If so, please explain precisely how it is wrong.
You can also phrase it in the negative: IF you do NOT believe in Me, THEN you WILL die in your sins. Or do you disagree with this too? If so, please explain precisely how it is wrong.
The key to the phrase is the Greek word "ean" which is translated "unless" in the NASB and "if" in the NIV, KJV and NKJV. The statement by Jesus is a "cause and effect" condition. There are 2 implied causes here: belief or unbelief, and 2 implied effects: die in sins, or not die in sins.
Whether you deny all of this or not means nothing. He said it. The statement is clear.
The ONLY reason to deny the significance of what He said is to protect and defend your theology. I would think about that. Hard.
quote:
Besides, this question of yours has been answered gazillions of times. You just are not satisfied that Christ is preaching the Gospel.[/quoet]
That is one of your most absurd statements ever, kelman. I'm totally satified that Christ preached the gospel to everyone. But your theology cannot explain why He did to the non-elect. All you have done is ignore it.
quote:
He simply speaks the truth to all "believe on me and be saved".
Then, explain WHY He said that to the non-elect, which your theology claims He didn't die for the non-elect. How does that make sense?
quote:
And this is precisely how He tells His apostles to preach the Word - to all.
Correct. iow, there isn't anyone who can't believe and be saved. But, calvinism denies that in their theology.
quote:
I should apologize in advance for not answering your question...since you'll only accuse me of not answering anyway.
Don't bother with your apologies. Your failure to answer WHY He evangelized the non-elect cannot be explained by your theology, which all of you calvinists have amply demonstrated, and which is my point for asking the question in the first place.
Jesus DID promise salvation to the non-elect, something that calvinism denies is possible. I'm satified with what Jesus did. Bank on that, kelman.
I'm absolutely NOT satisfied with calvinism, which denies what Jesus demonstrated as Truth.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 9:46:41 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Does anyone know why Adam was ashamed of his sin?
I have yet to get a reformed answer.
rw, why do you expect one? You know their claim: all unregenerate hate God and don't want to obey and have zero moral sensibilities. How can they answer Adam's obvious guilt in light of their claims.
As well, how can they answer why Jesus promised salvation to the non-elect, which the calinists claim the group Jesus didn't die for?
Does any free willer read any posts written by any RTs? This was one of your questions, FG, one which I answered, btw.
Yes, and no, to your 2 questions.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 9:50:00 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
kelman,
Can you, in light of calvinistic theology which claims that Christ didn't die for the non-elect, explain WHY Jesus promised salvation for the non-elect in John 8:24?
kelman is well able to answer this simple question, but I wanted to give my view.
He's been asked frequently, and hasn't answered yet. I don't think he has one. You do realize that is a lie, don't you?
You've responded, yes. That much is true. But you didn't address the issue, so why do you call that an answer?
quote:
You've even responded to the answers I've given. How come you actually don't care when you lie?
Of course I've responded to your responses. My responses have explained how your responses have not addressed the issue in my question, such as Jesus promising salvation to the non-elect. You simply dismiss His statement as a promise, which simply is denial of FACT. So, you HAVEN'T answered the question, because you have DENIED the FACT that it WAS a PROMISE.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 9:52:46 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
How come you freewillers get to ask all the questions? It only seems that way because when they do get asked questions they simply ignore them. Kind of like they ignore the answers to their questions...uh, except to say they never get any.
I've asked a number of free willers a question they won't answer. The last time just a few posts ago to FG.
"If God knows you will choose not to obey are you ABLE to choose to obey?"
Yes, I am able. But God knows in my freedom of choice that I won't.
Your thought process on God's foreknowledge is erroneous. Just because He knows what we will freely do, in no way means that He determined in the sense of causing it to occur.
It's just that darned pesky puppet thing that keeps getting in your way of clear thinking. If you could cut the strings, you could see things in the proper light.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 9:54:58 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[a] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[c] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[d] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.Rom. 9:11-18
Are you aware that Paul was quoting Malachi 1:2 in Rom 9:13, which was written over 400 years after Esau and Jacob were born? Further, are you aware that even when Rebecca was still carrying the twins, they were referred to as "nations", a prophecy of the future nations of Israel and Edom, from Gen 25:23, "And the LORD said to her, 2 nations are in your womb; and 2 peoples shall be separated from your body; and 1 people shall be stronger than the other; and the older shall serve the younger."
So, Paul was referring to the nations in Rom 9, NOT 2 individual persons.
Not so, the point of the whole chapter is election based upon redemption. God uses Esau to demonstrate His prerogative to elect on the basis of his will and totally without regard to human efforts. God also demonstrates that His election is based upon His ownership of man by virtue of creation.
Go ahead and ignore the significance of Gen 25:23 and Mal 1:2. But Paul exhorts Timothy and us to "rightly divide the Word of Truth". You can't do that when you ignore key Bible passages.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 10:17:28 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
If God is the author of the Law of Gravity, do you think he needs to determine when and
where every single leaf will fall?
I do, why don't you ?
Wouldn't it be UN-Godlike of Him ?
Who makes the snow, ice, and rain ?
Mother nature or Almighty God ?
Who feeds the animals ?
Why do you attempt to portray God as
distant and uninvolved in His creation ?
Job 38:12-41 (New American Standard Bible)
God's Mighty Power
12"Have you ever in your life commanded the morning,
And caused the dawn to know its place,
13That it might take hold of (A)the ends of the earth,
And (B)the wicked be shaken out of it?
14"It is changed like clay under the seal;
And they stand forth like a garment.
15"(C)From the wicked their light is withheld,
And the (D)uplifted arm is broken.
16"Have you entered into (E)the springs of the sea
Or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17"Have the gates of death been revealed to you,
Or have you seen the gates of (F)deep darkness?
18"Have you understood the expanse of (G)the earth?
Tell Me, if you know all this.
19"Where is the way to the dwelling of light?
And darkness, where is its place,
20That you may take it to (H)its territory
And that you may discern the paths to its home?
21"You know, for (I)you were born then,
And the number of your days is great!
22"Have you entered the storehouses (J)of the snow,
Or have you seen the storehouses of the (K)hail,
23Which I have reserved for the time of distress,
For the day of war and battle?
24"Where is the way that (L)the light is divided,
Or the east wind scattered on the earth?
25"Who has cleft a channel for the flood,
Or a way for the thunderbolt,
26To bring (M)rain on a land without people,
On a desert without a man in it,
27To (N)satisfy the waste and desolate land
And to make the seeds of grass to sprout?
28"Has (O)the rain a father?
Or who has begotten the drops of dew?
29"From whose womb has come the (P)ice?
And the frost of heaven, who has given it birth?
30"Water becomes hard like stone,
And the surface of the deep is imprisoned.
31"Can you bind the chains of the (Q)Pleiades,
Or loose the cords of Orion?
32"Can you lead forth a constellation in its season,
And guide the Bear with her satellites?
33"Do you know the (R)ordinances of the heavens,
Or fix their rule over the earth?
34"Can you lift up your voice to the clouds,
So that an (S)abundance of water will cover you?
35"Can you (T)send forth lightnings that they may go
And say to you, 'Here we are'?
36"Who has (U)put wisdom in the innermost being
Or given (V)understanding to the mind?
37"Who can count the clouds by wisdom,
Or (W)tip the water jars of the heavens,
38When the dust hardens into a mass
And the clods stick together?
39"Can you hunt the (X)prey for the lion,
Or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,
40When they (Y)crouch in their dens
And lie in wait in their lair?
41"Who prepares for (Z)the raven its nourishment
When its young cry to God
And wander about without food?
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 10:25:19 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
tdd1975,
You have been posting many good responses to the free-willers and I have enjoyed reading them!
Your posts are clear, truthful, and understandable, so dont think you need to rephrase things just because people pretend they dont understand as they try to tear it all apart.
Their words and ideas are rendered meaningless when held to the truth no matter how much ability they have in having words and ideas.
quote:
This latest POV on Adam that is being pushed around is just another way free-willers can try to wiggle in some sort of "feely good" thing about mankind in an attempt to show that man can willingly all of his own see his evil and turn to Jesus Christ.
How do you explain Adam's fear, KJ? What is your answer?
quote:
quote:
quote: rwe2156
OK.
Why were they afraid?
quote:
v8 because they heard the voice of the Lord coming.
They didn't go running into his arms like you guys are trying to depict.
They hid. They made excuses. They covered themselves.
They didn't seek God. They didn't repent. God came to them.
Notice how they never admit to something and just keep working so hard to keep their flawed POV going?
Notice how the calvinists keep whining but cannot answer the questions!
quote:
I think I would be afraid too if I was Adam and I heard the voice of God coming down from heaven...and that may of been how they heard it.
In the first place, KJ, the voice didn't "come down from heaven". The Lord was walking in the garden "in the cool of the day", so says Scripture. Gen 3:8
quote:
Free-willers say Adam knew about his guilt or sin but so what?
Big whoop de do!
There is no "big whoop de do" here, KJ. There is only sadness that you calvinists fail to see the significance in Adam's fear.
quote:
That sort of stuff has already been explained to rwe2156 in that even mobsters have a sense of guilt (a knowledge they are doing wrong) even when they rip off or snuff out other mobsters.
Yes. That demonstrates that even unregenerate men are free moral agents. And many criminals have given up their life of crime without becoming believers. Maybe that's just a "so what" to you, but it is significant.
quote:
God has already made a determined verdict and free-willers think that something about themselves is free to do above and beyond this verdict that God has already declared and determined that people just do not do.
What calvinists have already determined is that God's foreknowledge equals causation, which is false.
quote:
This is the verdict:
Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
I didn't see any descriptor such as "all" here. Why do you think this verse speaks of everyone? Seems the calvinists want "men" to refer to everyone, BUT when the Bible does speak of everyone, they want to limit it to less than everyone. Why is that?
quote:
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
OK. "everyone who does evil" doesn't equate to "everyone does evil". Maybe the calvinists need reading glasses.
quote:
.....men loved darkness instead of light.......Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light.....
This must clearly be speaking of turning to Jesus Christ in faith.....the faith that FreeGrace seems to think comes from within himself and not from God.
What is actually clear in these verses is that it doesn't say that everyone loved darkness, nor does it say that everyone does evil. Put on your reading glasses, KJ.
quote:
Free-willers always want to feel inside themselves that there was something different about them compared to the other guy even though there is nothing they can show that was different on the outside.
What a laugh! It is the calvinists who "always want to" mischaracterize the free will pov that way, when it isn't even close to the FW pov.
quote:
Men loved darkness instead of Light........period!
How many men, KJ?
quote:
Those that love darkness do evil and those that do evil hate the Light and will not come into the Light....period!
It's a choice, KJ. Get used to it.
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Now, on the other hand, if they prove to me that Cornelius and themselves are some sort of space aliens or angelic beings instead of mere men....I would have to let go of my POV and claim that the verdict might not apply to them but would depend on if they have ever done any evil.
Since we are all "mere men", what is your point here? Why would anyone try to prove that either Cornelius or ourselves are anything other than "mere men"?
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It all starts out with an improper understanding of evil (depravity) and how severely it has affected them.
Absolutely true, KJ. Man's depravity is spiritual death, which is separation from God because of sin. How's that for severe? Man is separated from God. That is bad news, indeed.
But, the good news is that Christ died for everyone. And God saves everyone who believes. But calvinism denies that, sadly. Even Jesus told the non-elect how to avoid dying in their sins. What He said would be a lie IF He hadn't died for them.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 10:26:25 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
The elect obtained salvation with a faith granted to them.
Now, that is reformed rhetoric. You have zero Scriptural support for that.
Not so fast...
Romans 12:3 (Amplified Bible)
3For by the grace (unmerited favor of God) given to me I warn everyone among you not to estimate and think of himself more highly than he ought [not to have an exaggerated opinion of his own importance], but to rate his ability with sober judgment, each according to the degree of faith apportioned by God to him.
A man cannot believe in something he
does not even know exists. Your teaching
makes no sense, there is no real credence.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 10:27:53 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
"If God knows you will choose not to obey are you ABLE to choose to obey?"
Yes, I am able. But God knows in my freedom of choice that I won't.
Won't or can't...same outcome.
So what? There is a huge difference between "won't" and "can't", which you seem to not understand. This isn't about "outcome" but rather on mechanics.
quote:
You are UNable to perform!!!
Nope. in your scenario I choose not to perform. That doesn't make me "unable" as you erroneously claim.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 10:31:36 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
The elect obtained salvation with a faith granted to them.
Now, that is reformed rhetoric. You have zero Scriptural support for that.
Not so fast...
Romans 12:3 (Amplified Bible)
3For by the grace (unmerited favor of God) given to me I warn everyone among you not to estimate and think of himself more highly than he ought [not to have an exaggerated opinion of his own importance], but to rate his ability with sober judgment, each according to the degree of faith apportioned by God to him.
The "faith" noted here is to believers, Manna. iow, they already have saving faith. tdd was speaking about saving faith. So your "support" really is no support. You are using a text out of context and you haven't supported your point.
quote:
A man cannot believe in something he does not even know exists. Your teaching makes no sense, there is no real credence.
I've already said that a man cannot believe in what He doesn't know exists. But guess what! God already solved that excuse. Just read Rom 1:18-22. Everyone knows that God exists. Even the fool atheists. They just claim that He doesn't.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 10:41:33 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1782
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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kelman,
Dont you think it is very odd that you give a POV that implies you are connected to God and under His control (of course we do not see actual strings) and you have people in here telling you that you should cut the strings?
Here you are in here as a Christian boasting about God and how God produces in you both the desire and the ability to do what pleases him, and you are told you should be cutting the strings?
You make claims based on the very Word of God that God is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure, and you are rebuked and prodded to cut the strings so you can see Light?
This is astonishing!
The depths that people will go to in order to promote a free-will humanistic agenda.
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It's just that darned pesky puppet thing that keeps getting in your way of clear thinking.
If you could cut the strings, you could see things in the proper light.
kelman,
I am glad to know that you are held in control by the One that is in control.
I would never want to prod you to cut the strings (harden your heart) but would glady prod you to do what you are already doing....submit.
I am not going to ask you to cut yourself away from God and His power even if you were able to do it.
I do not want to judge against the control that you claim to be under.
Who am I to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
Kelman, you are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you.
And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
God has His strings (so to speak) wrapped around you and I am sure the last thing you would want to do is cut them.
That is because God has put it in your heart to love His control.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 10:47:15 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
The elect obtained salvation with a faith granted to them.
Now, that is reformed rhetoric. You have zero Scriptural support for that.
Not so fast...
Romans 12:3 (Amplified Bible)
3For by the grace (unmerited favor of God) given to me I warn everyone among you not to estimate and think of himself more highly than he ought [not to have an exaggerated opinion of his own importance], but to rate his ability with sober judgment, each according to the degree of faith apportioned by God to him.
The "faith" noted here is to believers, Manna. iow, they already have saving faith. tdd was speaking about saving faith. So your "support" really is no support. You are using a text out of context and you haven't supported your point.
Faith apportioned by God...not manmade ascent !
No, your point is pointless and without merit.
Are you using your own experience as proof ?
Maybe you convinced yourself of something ?
Show us where Jesus tells people to create faith ?
Where does Jesus say to cause your own faith ?
This thinking is idiotic and totally without substance.
Why does a man suddenly convince himself there is
a God, when a moment ago the man could care less ?
What was revealed to the man by an outside agent ?
What changed the man's perspective and realization ?
Are you saying the man somehow within his evil soul
came up with foreign concepts and understanding(s)
about God that previously the man | | |
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