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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 5:55:45 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace,
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You are correct, the analogy is crude. It also is ineffectual as an analogy.
It is very accurate of the basis of your POV.
I clearly explained exactly why it isn't. But you want to play with your strawman.
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People "swimming to the boat" certainly are assisting in the rescue, but our believing in Christ doesn't in any way help with our "rescue". Why you keep thinking so is amazing.
They are not just assisting in the rescue according to your POV.
I already explained that swimming to the boat is NOT akin to believing in Christ. Not even close.
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If God leaves them to their own free-will it is TOTALLY dependent on them to get in the boat.
No. You continue to misunderstand. It is totally dependent upon God to get them inside the boat. That is what you seem incapable of grasping.
But, to grasp that simple concept, you would have to abandon your theology.
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Here is the better analogy. When a gift is given freely, the recipient isn't credited with obtaining the gift by his taking of it. It is the Giver who is credited with the giving of the gift.
Here is the REAL basis of that crude analogy.
When the gift is offered freely, the drowning swimmers must save themselves.
There is no connection between swimmers and gift recipients.
What is obvious is your refusal (fear?) of facing the truth of what receiving a gift is all about. Just forget your swimmers. The analogy doesn't work at all.
When God offers the free gift of salvation, the recipient plays no part in assisting the giver in any way. To think so is utterly silly.
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The drowning swimmers are NEVER saved unless they swim and get into the boat.
I said to forget your swimmers. The analogy doesn't work.
I agree that IF drowning swimmers have the ability to swim to the boat, they have basically saved themselves. But, in reality, technically, a drowning swimmer ain't swimming; that's why they are called "drowning swimmer". They need to be pulled into the boat. In THAT scenario, they haven't helped one bit.
When I got certified as a life guard, one of the things we had to learn to do was be ready and able to resist the negative things a drowning swimmer was likely to do; such as grab you so tightly that you can't swim, and then both of you would drown.
So, in the real world of drowning swimmers, the most they can do is get in the way by their own actions. So, your analogy fails to illustrate believing in Christ completely.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 6:08:12 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
If God leaves them to their own free-will it is TOTALLY dependent on them to get in the boat.
Greeting my dear brother...
There is no freewill in a rescue mission.
The analogy is weak in that when presenting the gospel, the very real danger is something that must be believed by the person. If they don't believe the danger exists, they won't believe.
So, all talk of a rescue must include the fact that the one needing rescuing is VERY AWARE of the danger they are in.
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God saved the drowning without their permission.
Now, this is real silly. Do you really suppose that a drowning person would rather NOT be rescued?
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God invades the POW camp and releases men.
Did He get their "permission"? 
I suppose you think that POW prisoners probably don't want to be rescued, from your comment.
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What is noteworthy is this...
The rescuer has the right to determine who he saves.
Absolutely. And 1 Tim 2:4 is quite clear.
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Jesus didn't heal everyone on earth...few are like Lazarus.
Actually, He Himself said the "physician" is for the sick, not the healthy.
According to your theology, it would appear that only the "elect" are the sick ones. How do you explain that?
Mark 2:17
And hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick; I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
OK, Manna. Now tell me, just who are the "sinners" here that Jesus speaks of? Only the "elect"?
If so, and that IS your theology, the conclusion is that the non-elect are the "righteous", and not in need of the Physician.
So, please explain yourself. The whole thing smacks of universalism.
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Jesus chose only one crippled man at the pool.
And how does this relate to dying on the Cross?
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If God does not move towards someone to save them...their freewill, whether fact or fiction is meaningless.
But since He did, and you reject that, what more is there to discuss?
John 12:32 "And when I am lifted up, I will draw all men to Myself."
I know how calvinists explain away that verse. But no one has been able to explain 1 John 2:2, where Christ is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.
That sure ain't the elect, my friend.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 6:10:19 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
All christians bear fruit.
All followers of Christ WILL be fruitful.
It's a side effect of being joined to Jesus.
Christ is in us bearing fruit.
I am the vine you are the branches...very plain.
God flowing through us to produce fruit.
How could one exhibit godly fruit without God ?
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 6:13:18 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Another interesting thing, j_m, about HK's post is that he acknowledges that the verse has a universal application (entire human race), and He has committed His love to them, because calvinism also claims that God loves only those He elected. So, I wonder how HK would respond about calvinism's claim that God loves only those He chose to believe (caused), yet he notes Ezek 33:11 has a universal application.
And you claim to know Calvinism...
You've been on this thread long enough to know that TF strongly asserted that God ONLY loves His elect, not the entire human race.
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God doesn't love everyone the same.
TF said that God didn't love the reprobate. In fact, he made a big deal of how could God love those He was sending to hell. What say you?
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I love my kids more than other people's kids.
God is the same...isn't this rather obvious ? 
That's interesting. Here you are comparing yourself with God.
Further, when I explained how one's children have the ability to be rebellious or obedient with their parents, just as God's children can, I'm criticized for trying to compare human experience with God.
What's up with that? Do only the reformed ones have that right?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 6:15:40 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
God has made us who we are...unless you are a self-made man...
The error is thinking that God made some to believe and many to reject the gospel. There is absolutely no support for that from Scripture.
If Paul was the calvinist you all think he was, why was he willing to be accursed from Christ in order to save as many Jews as possible?
Seems if he believed your doctrine of election, he would have known better and realized that "from before the foundation of the earth it was all a done deal.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 6:17:32 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
All christians bear fruit.
All followers of Christ WILL be fruitful.
It's a side effect of being joined to Jesus.
Christ is in us bearing fruit.
Only when believers aren't grieving or quenching the Spirit, and are under His influence (being filled - Eph 5:18) and walking by His means (Gal 5:16).
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 6:23:25 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
If God leaves them to their own free-will it is TOTALLY dependent on them to get in the boat.
Greeting my dear brother...
There is no freewill in a rescue mission.
The analogy is weak in that when presenting the gospel, the very real danger is something that must be believed by the person. If they don't believe the danger exists, they won't believe.
So, all talk of a rescue must include the fact that the one needing rescuing is VERY AWARE of the danger they are in.
Were you aware of your condemnation ?
I know I wasn't...
As you said, any analogy will be deficient.
My emphasis is on the rescuer...God's work.
The life and death of the victim is in His hands.
The rescuer is in control, the rescuer decides.
Whether you see it or not, this principle is in Scripture.
Jesus chose to heal a limited number.
Jesus chose to raise the widow at Nain's son. WHY ?
God chose only 8 to be spared from the Great Deluge.
God chose to destroy Sodom and Gommorah.
God chose Jacob, and not Esau.
God continuously chooses as He pleases.
You are aware of all these examples...it isn't refutable.
Are you puzzled as to why God chooses who He chooses ?
You should be...He never tells us other than He pleases Himself.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 6:28:08 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
All christians bear fruit.
All followers of Christ WILL be fruitful.
It's a side effect of being joined to Jesus.
Christ is in us bearing fruit.
Only when believers aren't grieving or quenching the Spirit, and are under His influence (being filled - Eph 5:18) and walking by His means (Gal 5:16).
For instance, when we sin...
No one is bearing fruit 24/7...
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 6:50:01 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1782
Joined: 12/2/2006
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Mannamuncher,
quote:
My emphasis is on the rescuer...God's work.
Amen to that.
FreeGrace has a hard time understanding how paramedics could arrive on a car accident and find a person laying on the ground knocked out and bleeding to death........and rescue the person without the person choosing to be rescued. That is because he always assumes (incorrectly) that people are able to grasp life on their own.
FreeGrace just loves to preach about human ability!
63 The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
64 But some of you do not believe me.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning which ones didn’t believe, and he knew who would betray him.)
65 Then he said, “That is why I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father gives them to me.”
FreeGrace said this;
quote:
When I got certified as a life guard, one of the things we had to learn to do was be ready and able to resist the negative things a drowning swimmer was likely to do; such as grab you so tightly that you can't swim, and then both of you would drown.
So, in the real world of drowning swimmers, the most they can do is get in the way by their own actions. So, your analogy fails to illustrate believing in Christ completely.
Mannamuncher......you and I both know it is written;
.............no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
Take care,
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 6:52:56 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Did you see the key? People won't believe when they receive glory from one another. Does this verse say that all do that? No.
That’s right, and when people have no idea about redemption in Christ will have no ability to think about it or any ability to decide anything concerning it.
And when there is no revelation about it.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 7:05:38 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
If God leaves them to their own free-will it is TOTALLY dependent on them to get in the boat.
Greeting my dear brother...
There is no freewill in a rescue mission.
The analogy is weak in that when presenting the gospel, the very real danger is something that must be believed by the person. If they don't believe the danger exists, they won't believe.
So, all talk of a rescue must include the fact that the one needing rescuing is VERY AWARE of the danger they are in.
Were you aware of your condemnation ?
When the gospel was presented, I understood that I was a sinner condemned to hell because of my sin, but Jesus died on the cross for my sins. I believed that.
quote:
I know I wasn't...
Did you believe the gospel, or not?
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My emphasis is on the rescuer...God's work.
So is mine. 
quote:
The life and death of the victim is in His hands. The rescuer is in control, the rescuer decides.
God has revealed His will to mankind. It is to give eternal life to whosoever believes. John 6:40.
quote:
Whether you see it or not, this principle is in Scripture.
Such as John 6:40.
quote:
Jesus chose to heal a limited number.
And God chooses to save only believers. What a coincidence!
quote:
Jesus chose to raise the widow at Nain's son. WHY ?
He was revealing His deity to the Jews.
quote:
God chose only 8 to be spared from the Great Deluge.
They were believers. What a coincidence!
quote:
God chose to destroy Sodom and Gommorah.
There were NO believers. What a coincidence!
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God chose Jacob, and not Esau.
What a coincidence! One was a believer, one wasn't.
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God continuously chooses as He pleases.
He sure does. Isn't it quite the coincidence that He chooses only believers!
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You are aware of all these examples...it isn't refutable.
Are you aware of all these coincidences?
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Are you puzzled as to why God chooses who He chooses ?
Not at all. Are you?
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You should be...He never tells us other than He pleases Himself.
Oh, yes He did. Throughout His Word, we find that He only chooses believers. Amazing.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 7:06:40 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
All christians bear fruit.
All followers of Christ WILL be fruitful.
It's a side effect of being joined to Jesus.
Christ is in us bearing fruit.
Only when believers aren't grieving or quenching the Spirit, and are under His influence (being filled - Eph 5:18) and walking by His means (Gal 5:16).
For instance, when we sin...
Exactly. My point.
quote:
No one is bearing fruit 24/7...
I'm missing what your point is here.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 7:06:41 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Or, if you think like the calvinists, who think God has to regenerate in order to get people to believe, what support do you have for that?
What's the alternative you are suggesting ?
Believing apart from God and without God ?
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 7:07:43 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 528
Joined: 7/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Another interesting thing, j_m, about HK's post is that he acknowledges that the verse has a universal application (entire human race), and He has committed His love to them, because calvinism also claims that God loves only those He elected. So, I wonder how HK would respond about calvinism's claim that God loves only those He chose to believe (caused), yet he notes Ezek 33:11 has a universal application.
And you claim to know Calvinism...
God doesn't love everyone the same.
I love my kids more than other people's kids.
God is the same...isn't this rather obvious ?
the problem is that the people we are talking about all belong to God. a correct analogy would be that you love one of your kids more than your other children.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 7:09:01 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
God has made us who we are...unless you are a self-made man...
The error is thinking that God made some to believe and many to reject the gospel. There is absolutely no support for that from Scripture.
Yet, this is EXACTLY what God did do...right ?
No. Wrong. Where is your support that God created some to believe and many to reject.
Scripture is very clear that God created mankind to seek Him.
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This is the outcome of God's work on the earth.
You are seeing things through the lens of calvinism rather than the Bible.
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Who decided what would transpire ?
There is the error. God know exactly what would happen when He created mankind with the freedom to think for themselves. There are no surprises.
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God or man ???
God created man knowing exactly how he would act. Each and every one of us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 7:11:45 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
I love my kids more than other people's kids.
God is the same...isn't this rather obvious ?
That's interesting. Here you are comparing yourself with God.
So you love my kids the same as yours ?
You just dodged my question by trying to change the subject.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 7:15:45 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
God doesn't love everyone the same.
TF said that God didn't love the reprobate. In fact, he made a big deal of how could God love those He was sending to hell. What say you?
Since when did my opinion matter ...LOL ?
Are you asking if God loves souls in hell ?
No, I'm asking what you thought TF's opinion that God doesn"t love everyone, while you are claiming that God loves "more or less", depending on one's status in life (you know, elect, or reprobate).
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 7:20:58 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Mannamuncher,
quote:
My emphasis is on the rescuer...God's work.
Amen to that.
FreeGrace has a hard time understanding how paramedics could arrive on a car accident and find a person laying on the ground knocked out and bleeding to death........and rescue the person without the person choosing to be rescued.
Of course I do. But that in no way illustrates the presentation of the gospel and the person believing or rejecting the message, now does it.
So, your analogy isn't even close to being being close.
quote:
That is because he always assumes (incorrectly) that people are able to grasp life on their own.
No, people are able to understand the gospel and either believe or reject the message.
quote:
FreeGrace just loves to preach about human ability!
Just as the Bible states that God created mankind to seek Him.
To think that God would create man to do something without giving man the ability to do it is the height of irrationality.
quote:
63 The Spirit alone gives eternal life. Human effort accomplishes nothing. And the very words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Yes, God alone regenerates. That is not the debate. Focus, KJ.
quote:
64 But some of you do not believe me.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning which ones didn’t believe, and he knew who would betray him.)
Yes. Jesus, being fully God, is fully and perfectly omniscient.
quote:
65 Then he said, “That is why I said that people can’t come to me unless the Father gives them to me.”
And who does the Father give to the Son? Believers. What a coincidence!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 7:24:35 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Did you see the key? People won't believe when they receive glory from one another. Does this verse say that all do that? No.
That’s right, and when people have no idea about redemption in Christ will have no ability to think about it or any ability to decide anything concerning it.
And when there is no revelation about it.
The issue is only about freedom to believe or reject that revelation.
Of course no one can believe without revelation. Paul made that quite clear in Rom 10:14,15.
And we know that God doesn't force revelation on anyone, as you think. That is clear from Romans 1:23 where God "gives them over to their own lusts" because they chose not to seek Him after the revelation about Himself to them.
otoh, Cornelius was given gospel revelation by Peter because he not only believed the revelation that God gave him, he began to seek God, as evidenced by reverence and continual praying.
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