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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/21/2008 11:38:06 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 3751
Joined: 3/30/2007
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HK,
Thank you for taking the time to write all of those posts. Absolutely wonderful!
Grace and peace,
Shema
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 3:56:53 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Sure do. Jesus Himself noted some who "believed for a while". What does that mean to you? That they never believed? 
You still peddling that bunk? Christ is clear they were NEVER saved. Christ said concerning the second soil "and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have". Clearly there are believers and some who only think they are...Christ is perfectly clear on that in Scripture. In addition, you continually ignore Christ told us that the second soil has NO ROOT. Don't you realize that Christ is the "Root"?...therefore, the second soil did not have Christ, iow, they were NOT saved.
quote:
Where in the Bible is there any concept of people only "thinking they believed in Christ"?
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? ...Simon Magus, Ananias, Sapphira.
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I am unaware of anyone who hold to FW pov who thinks that they save themselves, or that their faith does so. You keep building the same strawman over and over. No one has EVER said that the free willer "thinks" he saves himself....we simply say it is the result of such theology.....burned again.
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
Did you all know that babies don't have reasoning per FG. They have reflexes and instincts. Their little rodents or microbes. Out of this grows the Freegrace epistemology. The Evolution of Believing, catchy title, no?
I assure you, FG. My two sons were reasoning in the womb and everyone here who has had children knows what a crock that view is.
No. What is the real "crock" here is your notion that fetuses reason in the womb. What your wife, and maybe you felt when your two sons were there was reflex motility. You can look it up if you are not familiar with the term.
I guess John the Baptist "leaped" in Elisabeth's womb simply because of "reflex" - not because he was in the presence of His Savior? Imagine God thinking it necessary to teach us about "reflex motility"....
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 3:59:33 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
rwe, don't weasel out, friend. Answer about Solomon.
I honestly - sorry for having such short memory - dont remember if you are OSAS or not , rwe, ( I think you are)
The problem with holding to " no atheist can be saved" and to OSAS in the same time is Solomon and people like him.
Solomon walked away from faith, was worshipping other gods, his heart turned away from One True God.
Yet - ATTENTION! - during that time he was saved. That didnt cause a break in his salvation. So here we have a BIBLICAL case of someone who , while being just as good as an atheist that was in the same time, saved.
No, Odeliya, he was not "just as good as an atheist". While he worshipped other gods, he also believed in the God of his religion. Atheists, otoh, believe in neither God or "other gods".
And, of course, the most important issue is that Solomon repented of his sin as seen in Ecclesiastes.
Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment. -Ecclesiastes 11:9
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. -Ecclesiastes 12:13
But the question is that when did he write this part of the book?
He may have written it before he went the wrong way.
There is no sure way to know "when'; but the context indicates it was written from the point of view of a man in the twilight of his years - a man who was repenting for the mistakes of his life.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 4:03:18 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
1Tim is not speaking about elievers....it's talking about apostasy. These are not words used of believers, so seared consciences are not applicable to them.
Have you ever consulted with a dictionary on the word "apostasy"? I suggest you do. Hint: it means no longer believing what you used to believe. LOL....first it's the bible according to FG, now, it's the dictionary according to FG. Try this one from a "real" dictionary:
Apostasy
a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc.
No mention of the FG definition - that one actually BELIEVED. Compare the dictionary definition to the verse in question "...that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith,"
quote:
"that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;"Please explain how an unbeliever can "depart from the faith". iow, how can you depart a vehicle that you aren't in? Can't be done. Not surprisingly, God disagrees with your conclusion.
1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
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You're not talking about a "little wandering" from the faith. You're talking about total and complete apostasy. You're talking about someone who denounces God and then, according to you, will be received into heaven - that's totally off the reservation.
Quick, the dictionary! Yep, I suggest you do and when you do - open it to "a".
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quote:
Yep, and when He gives the gift of faith, He doesn't take it back. In fact, God says He is the Author and finisher of our faith, not to mention the Giver of ALL good things. So, your pov that believers can totally and irrevocably lose their faith has no support from Scripture - none.
The gift is eternal life. That isn't given back. But the very definition of "apostasy" is one who no longer believes what they used to believe.
Jesus Himself tells of those who "believe for a while". That is apostasy.
It cannot be said that unbelievers are apostate, since they have NEVER believed in Christ.
No need for me to comment on this since you're working from a deficit - not knowing the definition of a word you keep using. If you don't believe a dictionary I suggest the Bible, it speaks of apostasy often - the Greek word Apostasia.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 4:09:52 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
And, of course, the most important issue is that Solomon repented of his sin as seen in Ecclesiastes.
Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment. -Ecclesiastes 11:9
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. -Ecclesiastes 12:13
Only if you can prove he wrote that at the very end of his life. Since you can't prove it wasn't at the end of his life, why not just believe his writing in Ecc where he clearly repents for the wrongs of his life?
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1 Kings 11 is a summary of his life. The result of his miserable life was that God tore the kingdom from him.
Does that sound like repentance?
Since when does temporal punishment for sin become dying as an idolater? No, Scripture is clear Solomon repented of his sins before his death. He did not go into heaven denouncing God and worshipping false gods as you would have him.
There is nothing in Scripture to support your view that an unbeliever goes to heaven - nothing. Therefore, what you propose is foreign to Scripture and the Christian faith.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 4:14:05 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
HK,
Thank you for taking the time to write all of those posts. Absolutely wonderful!
Grace and peace,
Shema
Ditto, shema!
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 6:38:25 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
No, it's not. Do you keep on sinning, or have you stopped? Since we ALL know you haven't stopped sinning, the verse cannot be taken literally, or it is teaching sinless perfection. 1 John also makes perfectly clear that believers keep sinning. That's why we have 1 John 1:9.
Do you believe 1 John 5:18 or not? It isn't that hard of a question. You don't believe it literally or in any other sense.
Of course I don't take it literally. If I did, I would be a proponent of sinless perfection, which even you don't agree with. So, neither do you take 1 John 5:8 literally. So, what's your point?
quote:
I never said it teaches sinless perfection but it does connect being born again with how we live our lives. God who saved us will not allow us to continue in unrepentant sin.
The point of John's first epistle is that believers not sin (1 John 2:1). I agree with you about God not allowing us to continue in unrepentant sin. John discusses that as well, in 5:16. It's called the sin unto death, which Paul addressed in 1 Cor 11:30.
quote:
quote:
If you read Luke 8 fairly carefully, you will see that except for the first soil, in which the seed was stolen, ALL the seeds germinated.
But in the second soil, the plant withered. (how can you have a plant if there is not root?)
In the third soil, the plant was choked out by the weeds that "grew up with it". (how can you have a plant growing up with weeds without a root?)
In the 4th soil, there was fruit.
You have to deny the fact that the seed germinated in 3 soils, clearly indicative of life, but two of the plants didn't produce fruit.
Jesus explains the parable himself.
(Luke 8:15) As for that in the good soil, they are those who, hearing the word, hold it fast in an honest and good heart, and bear fruit with patience.
That's what I'm saying: faithful and obedient.
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(Luke 8:16) "No one after lighting a lamp covers it with a jar or puts it under a bed, but puts it on a stand, so that those who enter may see the light.
(Luke 8:17) For nothing is hidden that will not be made manifest, nor is anything secret that will not be known and come to light.
(Luke 8:18) Take care then how you hear, for to the one who has, more will be given, and from the one who has not, even what he thinks that he has will be taken away."
The have nots (the first three soils) have even that which they think they have (salvation, heaven, eternal life) taken away from them.
Your notion of having salvation misses the point completely, because your theology blinds you to the clarity of what Jesus said in v.12 and 13.
The fact is that there was plant life in 3 soils. The seed germinated. You cannot explain that.
quote:
The haves have even more added to them.
You mean "more salvation"? What does that mean?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 6:47:22 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Sure do. Jesus Himself noted some who "believed for a while". What does that mean to you? That they never believed?
You still peddling that bunk? Christ is clear they were NEVER saved.
No bunk. Truth. Where does Jesus say "they were NEVER saved". That is your eisegesis kicking in.
quote:
Christ said concerning the second soil "and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have". Clearly there are believers and some who only think they are...Christ is perfectly clear on that in Scripture.
Since the parable is about producing fruit, not getting saved, you are wrong.
quote:
In addition, you continually ignore Christ told us that the second soil has NO ROOT. Don't you realize that Christ is the "Root"?...therefore, the second soil did not have Christ, iow, they were NOT saved.
Oh, please. Soils 2,3,and 4 ALL became plants, whether you will admit it or not. Have you ever seen a plant without any root? Read the WHOLE parable. The seed GERMINATED in 3 soils. You have to ignore that from your theology.
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quote:
Where in the Bible is there any concept of people only "thinking they believed in Christ"?
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Where does it say that they "thought" they believed? Nowhere. What were they basing their entrance into heaven on? Christ or their own works? They clearly weren't believers and they clearly never thought they were "believers". They were "workers".
quote:
...Simon Magus, Ananias, Sapphira.
Plenty of eisegisis. You have no evidence that they weren't saved.
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quote:
I am unaware of anyone who hold to FW pov who thinks that they save themselves, or that their faith does so. You keep building the same strawman over and over. No one has EVER said that the free willer "thinks" he saves himself....we simply say it is the result of such theology.....burned again.
It is NOT the result. It is only in your imagination that you keep coming up with that nonsense. It has been discussed, you simply refuse to accept the facts.
quote:
I guess John the Baptist "leaped" in Elisabeth's womb simply because of "reflex" - not because he was in the presence of His Savior? Imagine God thinking it necessary to teach us about "reflex motility"....
Ask any obstetrician about babies "leaping" in the womb. Get real.
So, you really think John was reasoning?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 6:58:30 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1782
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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FreeGrace,
quote:
I am unaware of anyone who hold to FW pov who thinks that they save themselves, or that their faith does so. If anyone does, they are dead wrong. But all you are doing is using a strawman argument.
quote:
KJB;...In the first scenario the boats only wait as an offer for the people to save themselves.
Simple and crude analogy;
1. The people drowning at sea are lost sinners heading towards hell.
2. Life boat would be Jesus Christ.
3. Put a man in the boat calling the people to the boat and you have ineffectual draw.
4. People swimming to the boat are the example of effectual free-will and of course the weak never make it while the strong willed might.
I understand.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 8:37:05 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1313
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Do you keep on sinning, or have you stopped? Since we ALL know you haven't stopped sinning, the verse cannot be taken literally, or it is teaching sinless perfection. 1 John also makes perfectly clear that believers keep sinning. That's why we have 1 John 1:9.
We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. (1 John 5:18)
Certainly there is no one who never sins, but I think the verse is referring to sin as a lifestyle. John means that everyone who has been born of God does not life a lifestyle of sin. Of course, people born of God will still sin, but it will no longer be their way of life as it was prior to their salvation.
So, I believe the verse can be taken literally with that understanding and it does not refer to sinless perfection.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 8:38:01 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
1Tim is not speaking about elievers....it's talking about apostasy. These are not words used of believers, so seared consciences are not applicable to them.
Have you ever consulted with a dictionary on the word "apostasy"? I suggest you do. Hint: it means no longer believing what you used to believe. LOL....first it's the bible according to FG, now, it's the dictionary according to FG. Try this one from a "real" dictionary:
Apostasy
a total desertion of or departure from one's religion, principles, party, cause, etc.
No mention of the FG definition - that one actually BELIEVED. Compare the dictionary definition to the verse in question "...that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith,"
kelman, you are a real hoot. Here is an actual dictionary definition of the word "apostasy" for your reading pleasure.\:
"an abandoning of what one believed in, as a faith, political party, principles, etc." Happy?
Here is "apostatize":
"abandon one's faith".
This came from Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language, college Edition.
I accept your apologies. 
quote:
quote:
"that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;"Please explain how an unbeliever can "depart from the faith". iow, how can you depart a vehicle that you aren't in? Can't be done. Not surprisingly, God disagrees with your conclusion.
1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
In the context of 1 Tim, your attempt to pit Scripture against Scripture doesn't work. Please tell me HOW Paul could be describing an unbeliever in 1 Tim 5:8 with "worse than an unbeliever"? Or, regarding younger widows, whose "sensual desires overcome their dedication of Christ" in 5:11, or a few verses later, "and some have alrady turned away to follow Satan"? None of this can be describing unbelievers.
What unbelievers do you know who demonstrate "dedication to Christ"?
quote:
quote:
Yep, and when He gives the gift of faith, He doesn't take it back. In fact, God says He is the Author and finisher of our faith, not to mention the Giver of ALL good things. So, your pov that believers can totally and irrevocably lose their faith has no support from Scripture - none.
The gift is eternal life. That isn't given back. But the very definition of "apostasy" is one who no longer believes what they used to believe.
Jesus Himself tells of those who "believe for a while". That is apostasy.
Yes, they no longer believe what they used to believe, the definition of apostasy.
quote:
It cannot be said that unbelievers are apostate, since they have NEVER believed in Christ.
No need for me to comment on this since you're working from a deficit - not knowing the definition of a word you keep using. If you don't believe a dictionary I suggest the Bible, it speaks of apostasy often - the Greek word Apostasia.
The deficit is your lack of knowledge according to the dictionary meaning, which I've just provided.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 8:43:43 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
And, of course, the most important issue is that Solomon repented of his sin as seen in Ecclesiastes.
Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment. -Ecclesiastes 11:9
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. -Ecclesiastes 12:13
Only if you can prove he wrote that at the very end of his life. Since you can't prove it wasn't at the end of his life, why not just believe his writing in Ecc where he clearly repents for the wrongs of his life?
My proof is 1 Kings 11, which is a summary of his life. Can you show me anywhere in that passage where he ended well? No, you can't.
quote:
quote:
1 Kings 11 is a summary of his life. The result of his miserable life was that God tore the kingdom from him.
Does that sound like repentance?
Since when does temporal punishment for sin become dying as an idolater? No, Scripture is clear Solomon repented of his sins before his death.
Where is your proof? You cannot claim Eccles because you have no idea when he wrote that.
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He did not go into heaven denouncing God and worshipping false gods as you would have him.
Of course he wouldn't. The moment he died, he left his body of sin and "on the way up" he clearly realized all that he had done wrong.
quote:
There is nothing in Scripture to support your view that an unbeliever goes to heaven - nothing. Therefore, what you propose is foreign to Scripture and the Christian faith.
If you would only realize I'm speaking of "former believer". You just use the word "unbeliever" to confuse the issue.
The Bible speaks plainly about those who leave the faith, abandon the faith, etc. No unbeliever can be described that way.
Example: you can't be said to "abandon a vehicle" unless you are first inside the vehicle.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 8:57:20 AM
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tdd1975
Posts: 425
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Of course I don't take it literally. If I did, I would be a proponent of sinless perfection, which even you don't agree with. So, neither do you take 1 John 5:8 literally. So, what's your point?
That you can not separate being born again and how we live our lives afterwards.
quote:
The point of John's first epistle is that believers not sin (1 John 2:1). I agree with you about God not allowing us to continue in unrepentant sin. John discusses that as well, in 5:16. It's called the sin unto death, which Paul addressed in 1 Cor 11:30.
So God made those who took the Lord's supper improperly sick and even killed some of them. OK, I will go along with that but where does that leave your unrepentant atheist?
I say that if there is no chastisement or correction then they were never saved in the first place.
You can't on the one hand say this
quote:
Once He saves someone, they stay saved, regardless of how bad they live the rest of their miserable lives. That is what you can't accept.
and then turn around and say this
quote:
I agree with you about God not allowing us to continue in unrepentant sin.
You can't have it both ways.
If God is not working in their lives to bring them back then they are illegitimate children.
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 9:00:40 AM
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tdd1975
Posts: 425
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. (1 John 5:18)
Certainly there is no one who never sins, but I think the verse is referring to sin as a lifestyle. John means that everyone who has been born of God does not life a lifestyle of sin. Of course, people born of God will still sin, but it will no longer be their way of life as it was prior to their salvation.
So, I believe the verse can be taken literally with that understanding and it does not refer to sinless perfection.
Thank you Greatdivide. Very well put.
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 9:08:56 AM
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tdd1975
Posts: 425
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Your notion of having salvation misses the point completely, because your theology blinds you to the clarity of what Jesus said in v.12 and 13.
The fact is that there was plant life in 3 soils. The seed germinated. You cannot explain that.
The point of the parable isn't to see if there are little signs of life or not but whether we bear fruit or not.
That is why Jesus warns us to take heed how we hear. He doesn't want us to receive the word like the the first three soils but rather like the fourth.
All christians bear fruit.
The only question is will it be 30, 60, or 100 fold.
quote:
You mean "more salvation"? What does that mean?
I hadn't thought about it that way but you know our glorification in Ro 8 is elsewhere called our redemption that draws nigh.
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 9:20:02 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace,
quote:
I am unaware of anyone who hold to FW pov who thinks that they save themselves, or that their faith does so. If anyone does, they are dead wrong. But all you are doing is using a strawman argument.
quote:
KJB;...In the first scenario the boats only wait as an offer for the people to save themselves.
Simple and crude analogy;
1. The people drowning at sea are lost sinners heading towards hell.
2. Life boat would be Jesus Christ.
3. Put a man in the boat calling the people to the boat and you have ineffectual draw.
4. People swimming to the boat are the example of effectual free-will and of course the weak never make it while the strong willed might.
I understand.
You are correct, the analogy is crude. It also is ineffectual as an analogy.
People "swimming to the boat" certainly are assisting in the rescue, but our believing in Christ doesn't in any way help with our "rescue". Why you keep thinking so is amazing.
Here is the better analogy. When a gift is given freely, the recipient isn't credited with obtaining the gift by his taking of it. It is the Giver who is credited with the giving of the gift.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 9:28:25 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
Of course I don't take it literally. If I did, I would be a proponent of sinless perfection, which even you don't agree with. So, neither do you take 1 John 5:8 literally. So, what's your point?
That you can not separate being born again and how we live our lives afterwards.
quote:
The point of John's first epistle is that believers not sin (1 John 2:1). I agree with you about God not allowing us to continue in unrepentant sin. John discusses that as well, in 5:16. It's called the sin unto death, which Paul addressed in 1 Cor 11:30.
So God made those who took the Lord's supper improperly sick and even killed some of them. OK, I will go along with that but where does that leave your unrepentant atheist?
I'd say under the "sin unto death" department. And, btw, God alone determines when and to whom He applies it. In fact, John makes it clear that we are not to "pray about it", which means we are not to pray that God will "take home" those who offend us by their lifestyles.
quote:
I say that if there is no chastisement or correction then they were never saved in the first place.
Say what you will, but the Bible is clear about God's hand of discipline towards His children.
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You can't on the one hand say this
quote:
Once He saves someone, they stay saved, regardless of how bad they live the rest of their miserable lives. That is what you can't accept.
and then turn around and say this
quote:
I agree with you about God not allowing us to continue in unrepentant sin.
You can't have it both ways.
I'm not. The point is this: God alone determines when He takes one of His children home. What do you want; the moment a believer begins to live in unrepentant sin for God to zap them? Is that grace?
Don't you recall 2 Pet 3:9?
quote:
If God is not working in their lives to bring them back then they are illegitimate children.
God is patient, not wanting anyone to perish (die the sin unto death). So, He gives His children time to repent, just like Jesus indicated about Jezebel, in Rev 2:21. Some do, and some don't.
And, ultimately, God takes them home in His perfect timing, which usually isn't our timing.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 9:29:45 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. (1 John 5:18)
Certainly there is no one who never sins, but I think the verse is referring to sin as a lifestyle. John means that everyone who has been born of God does not life a lifestyle of sin. Of course, people born of God will still sin, but it will no longer be their way of life as it was prior to their salvation.
So, I believe the verse can be taken literally with that understanding and it does not refer to sinless perfection.
Thank you Greatdivide. Very well put.
WADR to GD, one has to ignore or reject 1 Tim to come to this conclusion.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 9:33:20 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
Your notion of having salvation misses the point completely, because your theology blinds you to the clarity of what Jesus said in v.12 and 13.
The fact is that there was plant life in 3 soils. The seed germinated. You cannot explain that.
The point of the parable isn't to see if there are little signs of life or not but whether we bear fruit or not.
Well, well. That is my point too. The point is whether believers bear fruit. Why do you think "bearing fruit" equals getting saved?
quote:
That is why Jesus warns us to take heed how we hear. He doesn't want us to receive the word like the the first three soils but rather like the fourth.
Of course He does. That is why He gave the parable.
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All christians bear fruit.
That is where your train derails.
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The only question is will it be 30, 60, or 100 fold.
Go ahead and ignore the clarity of Luke 8:12,13 and 1 Timothy.
quote:
quote:
You mean "more salvation"? What does that mean?
I hadn't thought about it that way but you know our glorification in Ro 8 is elsewhere called our redemption that draws nigh.
How does that defend the idea of "more salvation"? I don't see it.
What should be clear is that what is "more" is fruit production, which is the point of the soil parable.
Seems you so close to understanding this parable.
{edited to fix quote box}
< Message edited by FreeGrace -- 11/22/2008 10:36:38 AM >
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 10:48:42 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1781
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
Train kept a'rollin...this time God determines and destines who he will give to Jesus:
4As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, 5 you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6For it stands in Scripture:
"Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone,
a cornerstone chosen and precious,
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."
7So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,
"The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,"
8and
"A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense."
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
I don't see anything in those verses that says that God destined people according to how saw them choosing to act at some point in time. It says that GOD determines the destinies of both the saved and the unsaved.
I think your train just got derailed :)
Actually it says that God determined the destinies of those who are obedient and those who are disobedient . It does not say God determined who would be obedient and who would be disobedient .
If you take careful note of v. 8 in your quote above : it does not say that they were destined to disobey ; it says they were destined to stumble because they disobey the word .
Stumbling is the judgment for those who disobey the word , it is what is destined for all who disobey the word . Their disobeying is not what is destined , but the judgment of disobeying is what is destined ; and that is stumbling .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 12:02:19 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
Train kept a'rollin...this time God determines and destines who he will give to Jesus:
4As you come to him, a living stone rejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, 5 you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6For it stands in Scripture:
"Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone,
a cornerstone chosen and precious,
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame."
7So the honor is for you who believe, but for those who do not believe,
"The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,"
8and "A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense."
They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.
I don't see anything in those verses that says that God destined people according to how saw them choosing to act at some point in time. It says that GOD determines the destinies of both the saved and the unsaved.
I think your train just got derailed :)
Actually it says that God determined the destinies of those who are obedient and those who are disobedient . It does not say God determined who would be obedient and who would be disobedient .
If you take careful note of v. 8 in your quote above : it does not say that they were destined to disobey ; it says they were destined to stumble because they disobey the word .
Stumbling is the judgment for those who disobey the word , it is what is destined for all who disobey the word . Their disobeying is not what is destined , but the judgment of disobeying is what is destined ; and that is stumbling .
Bee! Good to see you back. Your voice of reason is always welcomed and I've missed your posts.
I stay amazed at how calvinists read Scripture. It's plain enough, for sure. Thanks for the post.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 3:22:40 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 528
Joined: 7/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
1. This passage does not have to mean all of the wicked (though I think it does apply universally in a sense). The wicked are Israelites who are in Covenant and belong to him, to whom he has committed his love.
great numbers of the israelites did not return from their evil ways. from your post those who did not return belonged to God, and He had committed His love to them. the logical infernce is that God does not always deliver/protect that which belongs to Him and is loved by Him. am i understanding you correctly here?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 3:52:18 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
1. This passage does not have to mean all of the wicked (though I think it does apply universally in a sense). The wicked are Israelites who are in Covenant and belong to him, to whom he has committed his love.
great numbers of the israelites did not return from their evil ways. from your post those who did not return belonged to God, and He had committed His love to them. the logical infernce is that God does not always deliver/protect that which belongs to Him and is loved by Him. am i understanding you correctly here?
Another interesting thing, j_m, about HK's post is that he acknowledges that the verse has a universal application (entire human race), and He has committed His love to them, because calvinism also claims that God loves only those He elected. So, I wonder how HK would respond about calvinism's claim that God loves only those He chose to believe (caused), yet he notes Ezek 33:11 has a universal application.
He doesn't answer my questions. Maybe you could ask him.
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