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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 1:18:14 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Do you really think you can place your confidence in a decision or a promise
you think you believe is true, as opposed to yourself as a new creation?
One's "confidence" is placed in Whom they have believed for eternal life, since that is what is promised to believers. Of course, if one's faith fails, as Charles Templeton's did, he has no confidence now, does he.
btw, you you disagree that God always gives what He has promised to those who believe? And, when do you think He gives what He promises, specifially;
forgiveness
justification,
regeneration
eternal life
At the moment of belief, or later on?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 1:19:12 PM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
quote:
He did not die an atheist. Duh. Think we can get back to a real argument now?
This is not what you read in the scriptures. Makes no references to that fact Solomon changed his mind.
Good point, mcleod!!
THere is a very small amount of scholars who even think that Eccl. was written right before Sol's death, and that he somewhat turned away from being a foreign gods worshipper.
Definitely no serious Tanach scholars or rabbinum believe that
It is made up by those who like the idea of making historical figures have a pretty image :)
I was though politely giving the C camp the benefit of the doubt,and agreeing with that but it is not technically supported by Scripture. I myself believe Solomon died in that sin actually...
Dog gone you girl you beat me to the answer.
This if it was written by Solomon, would have been in part some of his earlier years of his life.About the time he had ask God for wisdom.
I just again noticed that Solomon and Gideon were at onetime used by God for a very good cause. Yet in their older age became very corrupted men.
So here we have this issue if God is all controlling as you put it and that nothing he does comes back void. Why in the world would these and several other people mention in the bible. Would at a early part of their life be so gun-ho for God,yet in the sunset of it be so-ill mannered individuals
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 1:22:46 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
Rev. 21:8
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
No atheists in heaven. Argument over.
As well, you apparently think that all the timid folk and liars will be in the Lake of Fire.
The verse says nothing about the "former believing". If your pov were correct, if one's faith fails, then one's salvation is lost, not that they never had it to begin with. You might as well join the arminian camp.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 1:27:22 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
quote:
The problem is that for calvinists, who claim God controls everything, including all their thoughts, the idea that one has the ability and freedom to make their own mind up is baffling and confusing. Which explains why the calvinists haven't properly or accurately stated my pov yet.
I certainly don't buy that your clear on it, FG. You have completely failed to defend your view of human freedom biblically, only offering false inferences from verses taken completely out of context and doctored up with false linguistics.
That is merely a cheap defense. You've backed up nothing and explain nothing. Why don't you join the debate?
quote:
So, you hide behind the claim that we don't understand you. My question is, if we don't understand you, why do you continue to argue from what we say? We must be hitting your pov for you to go on.
My claim is valid because I have repeatedly had to correct what you calvinists keep claiming is my pov. Haven't you noticed?
I keep going on in order to get you to actually grasp my pov.
quote:
I admit that when I first engaged with you, I was throwing out depth charges trying to find your sub. But the recent digression to "atheists can go to heaven" is pretty good evidence that your boat is sunk. Nothing on the surface left but debris.
Lots of words, but where is your substance? I've asked you a number of questions, and all you have done is give me "lots of words", but no substance.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 1:29:39 PM
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TheosCentric
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1) As for Solomon, just read Ecclesiastes.
2) I'm beginning to think that FG just doesn't know what believe actually means. Hint: it's not intellectual.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 1:32:03 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
God doesn't want any of his flock to perish, so he's patient with them when they're backslidden, even to the point of entertaining atheistic thoughts or adoration of false gods.
I dont think are in any disagreeement, my sister. God does work in the hearts of saved, but backslidden people! i am just not seeing any indication that if a person dies before repentance of a particular sin he is lost.
Solomon: I call it "atheist and idolater" You call it in a nicer way "backslidden, even to the point of entertaining atheistic thoughts or adoration of false gods"
But the issue remains:
when Kind Solomon was an idolater and lost his faith he was, in that period of time, saved person.
My premise -He did not lose salvation during that time of idolatry.
Here we go, may i be allowed an example( you make me remember my childhood Torah study years, i forgot most of it already  ):
Jewish history has it he was born in ab 847 BC, died in 796 BC, we dont know the accuracy of it, but for the sake of example, ok. Lets mark the years he was an idolater as 800 to 797, just give the king 4 years of godless behaivor:) in 796 ,lets say, he repented and died soon after.
So here we have atheist or idolater who, was saved between the years of 800 and 797, right?Your position? Please, a definite Yes or No.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 1:36:59 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
FG,
quote:
What you miss is that there is no evidence that Solomon did. None.
Read Eccles. 2, then get back to me, ok?
OK, I did. What is your point? Was Eccles the last thing Solomon wrote? Obviously not. The book of Proverbs and Eccles proves that our boy Sol was saved. No doubt.
Did you read 1 Kings 11? Then get back to me.
quote:
quote:
My pov has always been that God gave everyone the "ability" to think for themselves, and the capacity to believe or reject whatever they want.
Shifting ground.
quote:
Would you care to specifically explain how I am on "shifting grounds".
See above.
Except that none of the "above" is relevant to my question as to specifically explain how I am on shifting grounds.
quote:
You know, though. Even if it could be proven that Solomon did not repent (and it can’t)
I guess you just don't want to read 1 Kings 11, do ya.
quote:
Solomon is not an apples to apples evidence of an atheist. It is easy to prove that Solomon was not an atheist, never was.
That's not my argument. It was Del's. The point is that Solomon "wandered from his faith", just as Paul warned Timothy would happen in his congregation. Solomon ended his life (you know - when he was old) with his heart turned away from the Lord and towards the gods of his many wives. So, he wasn't an atheist. He was no different in that he was a believer who worshiped idols. That was Del's point too.
You haven't provided any explanation of how he could end his life worshiping idols and be a believer. All you calvinists try to defend the pov that he repented before he died, yet you offer absolutely no support, only claims.
I have presented 1 Kings 11 to you as support that he ended poorly, to say the least. You are free to ignore Scripture, though.
{edited to fix quote boxes}
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 2:16:04 PM
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HardKnox
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FG, Ode, mc,
So, let’s see. Solomon married a posse of wives, built idols to their gods and joined them in worship while having built the Temple of Jehovah and high places for his worship, was admittedly a believer and went to heaven when he died, THEREFORE, atheists can go to heaven. Does this pretty much some up your biblical reasoning on the subject?
Sometimes just standing back and looking at it as a whole just says it all. 
Its not even worth arguing its so pathetic.
quote:
You are free to ignore Scripture, though.
You wrote the book on it.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 2:19:36 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2036
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
FG, Ode, mc,
So, let’s see. Solomon married a posse of wives, built idols to their gods and joined them in worship while having built the Temple of Jehovah and high places for his worship, was admittedly a believer and went to heaven when he died, THEREFORE, atheists can go to heaven. Does this pretty much some up your biblical reasoning on the subject?
Sometimes just standing back and looking at it as a whole just says it all.
Its not even worth arguing its so pathetic.
quote:
You are free to ignore Scripture, though.
You wrote the book on it.
Yeah, the whole thing makes me want to go too.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 2:33:29 PM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
FG, Ode, mc,
So, let’s see. Solomon married a posse of wives, built idols to their gods and joined them in worship while having built the Temple of Jehovah and high places for his worship, was admittedly a believer and went to heaven when he died, THEREFORE, atheists can go to heaven. Does this pretty much some up your biblical reasoning on the subject?
Sometimes just standing back and looking at it as a whole just says it all.
Its not even worth arguing its so pathetic.
quote:
You are free to ignore Scripture, though.
You wrote the book on it.
Yeah, the whole thing makes me want to go too.
I think some people have a very, very low view of the holiness of God (which commonly happens when one does not appreciate the teaching of scripture on the true heinousness of sin.) So, God is constantly contradicting himself, revealing the the great mystery of faith then, forgetting his rash promises, allowing an atheist to slip into heaven because God can't take back the gift. Its mind-boggling, God allowing unbelief into his presence, besmirching his holiness by taking the defilement of men into his bosom.
I stand on this:
"For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." 2 Tim. 1:12
...and I know I will never become an atheist.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 2:40:54 PM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
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quote:
So here we have this issue if God is all controlling as you put it and that nothing he does comes back void. Why in the world would these and several other people mention in the bible. Would at a early part of their life be so gun-ho for God,yet in the sunset of it be so-ill mannered individuals
mc. I may be misunderstanding your funky manner of writing which is almost completely unreadable, but it sounds like you're saying
"if God is all controlling" and "if...nothing he does comes back void"
Are you saying you do not believe that God is in control and that you believe things come back to him void?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 2:57:57 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 425
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quote:
I think some people have a very, very low view of the holiness of God (which commonly happens when one does not appreciate the teaching of scripture on the true heinousness of sin.) So, God is constantly contradicting himself, revealing the the great mystery of faith then, forgetting his rash promises, allowing an atheist to slip into heaven because God can't take back the gift. Its mind-boggling, God allowing unbelief into his presence, besmirching his holiness by taking the defilement of men into his bosom.
I stand on this:
"For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." 2 Tim. 1:12
...and I know I will never become an atheist.
Amen and Amen to that.
Good post HK
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 3:01:15 PM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
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Well, FG. You've said over and over again that I (and the rest of us on the biblical side of this argument) don't understand your pov. Maybe your right. Maybe I don't see it because it is just to horrible to contemplate.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 3:01:29 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
FG, Ode, mc,
So, let’s see. Solomon married a posse of wives, built idols to their gods and joined them in worship while having built the Temple of Jehovah and high places for his worship, was admittedly a believer and went to heaven when he died, THEREFORE, atheists can go to heaven. Does this pretty much some up your biblical reasoning on the subject?
What is your point here? Can you prove that Sol repented before the Lord "tore his kingdom" away from him? And why did the Lord "tear" his kingdom away from him? The answer is found in 1 Kings 11:9-13.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 3:16:36 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
I think some people have a very, very low view of the holiness of God (which commonly happens when one does not appreciate the teaching of scripture on the true heinousness of sin.)
Who are you judging now, HK? Of course ALL sins (even yours) are quite heinous to God, who is perfect and holy. The very reason He sent His Son to die for them. How does your statement here relate to either Sol's poor ending as a believer or a believer who at some point quits believing?
It would help if you would explain yourself, if you can.
quote:
So, God is constantly contradicting himself, revealing the the great mystery of faith then, forgetting his rash promises, allowing an atheist to slip into heaven because God can't take back the gift.
Who do you know who thinks that God "constantly contradicts Himself", or "forgets His rash promises"? And why do you even use the phrase "rash promises"? What are you trying to convey?
quote:
Its mind-boggling, God allowing unbelief into his presence, besmirching his holiness by taking the defilement of men into his bosom.
OK, let me get this straight. Those to whom He has "rashly" (your notion, not mine) promised eternal life to, should rather go back on His promise and refuse entrance even though He already gave eternal life to them?
If that isn't what you believe, you need to explain yourself. You are sounding more and more like an arminian.
quote:
I stand on this:
"For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day." 2 Tim. 1:12
I stand on this as well. It is a guarantee that all who have believed in His Son will be saved. He promised. And it wasn't a "rash" one.
quote:
...and I know I will never become an atheist.
In reality, none of us knows what will happen tomorrow, much less in a year from now. You know why I know that? The Bible tells me so.
Prov 27:1
Do NOT boast about tomorrow, for you do NOT know what a day may bring forth."
Or, James 4:13,14
Come now, you who say, today or tomorrow, we shall go to such and such a city, and spend a year there and engage in business and make a profit. Yet you do NOT know what YOUR LIFE will be like TOMORROW. You are just a VAPOR that appears for a little while and then vanishes away."
Instead of your boast here, HK, you should heed James 4:15,
"Instead, you ought to say, If the Lord wills, we shall live and also do THIS or THAT."
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 3:24:39 PM
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rwe2156
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
I honestly - sorry for having such short memory - dont remember if you
are OSAS or not , rwe, ( I think you are
Yes, but OSAS is not a doctrine, it is simply a fact and I don't build
theology around it - it is simply a catchy little phrase unfortunatley
many lay claim to it with nothing on the business end - as in
GOD keeps us secure, not believing a promise or making a claim.
That's for the talkers, not the walkers.
My catchphrase is, "If Saved Always Saved" or better yet "If Saved Always Persevering"
which I know you will not like (but I'm not THAT nice a guy......).
quote:
The problem with holding to " no atheist can be saved" and to
OSAS in the same time is Solomon and people like him.
I've already given my take on why Solomon was not an atheist, but a reprobrate.
If "Once" saved means "at one time" then why don't you just be
truthful and say "once upon a time" saved, Del, 'cause what
you're believing is a fairy tale invented by a Matthew 7 salesman.
He wants to destroy Christianity and he will succeed by destroying
Christians and he will destroy Christians by deceiving them and
he will deceive them just the way the Bible says: by having us
believe a false doctrine................
............and in the time of testing they will fall way - they never had it to begin with
and it will not be there in the end.
quote:
Solomon walked away from faith, was worshipping other gods,
his heart turned away from One True God.
Where is the proof he "walked away" from his faith, meaning what?
Del, if we can abandon our faith, as I told Free, the Arminian view of
CS (cond. Sec.) comes into play - you are trapped into that view
which says we can pop in and out of our salvation and lose it -
you are opposed to this view, but yet your prooftexts are the same!
Besides, I don't think there really is such a thing as an atheist [gasp]
Why do they get so upset about something they don't believe exists............huhh?
quote:
Yet - ATTENTION! - during that time he was saved.
Yes, during the time he was disobedient and an idol worshipper, he was saved.
quote:
That didnt cause a break in his salvation.
No, it didn't. Just like the guy waxing his big shiny 4X4 pickup instead
of being in Sunday School...............
quote:
So here we have a BIBLICAL case of someone who , while being just
as good as an atheist that was in the same time, saved.
What you mean "just as good" - like "just as saved" or "just as bad"?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 3:25:41 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
Well, FG. You've said over and over again that I (and the rest of us on the biblical side of this argument) don't understand your pov. Maybe your right. Maybe I don't see it because it is just to horrible to contemplate.
I have no doubt that my pov is "too horrible to contemplate" for you and your fellow calvinists. In order to contemplate what the Bible teaches, you would have to seriously revamp your theology, which none of you are willing to do.
At least you admit that you cannot even "contemplate" my pov. That has been the whole problem in trying to have a discussion with any of you.
And why you all continue to misrepresent my pov.
How can you have a serious debate with another when you aren't able to contemplate their pov? That's not being objective.
I have followed and understood the reformed pov, and I have no problem contemplating it. I just disagree with it because of what I read in the Bible. It doesn't line up with the Bible.
I think the reformed pov grossly mis-reads the Bible and commits eisegesis all the time. I have no other explanation for how you come up with the understanding of Scripture that you do.
Paul clearly told Tim about some who would wander from the faith, deny the faith, destroy the faith of others, who's sensual desires overcome their dedication to Christ ( ), who have already turned away to follow Satan (more ), and are worse than an unbeliever.
Yet, you guys just ignore all of that and say a "true believer cannot do those things" even though Paul says they will.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 3:43:28 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
As for Solomon, who say this makes him an atheist? I should thing He would
be worshipping no gods at all! Perhaps he was a little confused or rebellious?
wait a minute. So one person i know ( modern day Solomon) leaves church, studies Budhism, worhsips another religion, denounces One God by his actions - and you seem to justify such behaivor as Perhaps he was a little confused or rebellious?
No wonder the church is in such terrible condition. No preaching truth, just
poltical correct covering up for sins with nice wording, as you just did!!
Please, my dear - I make no excuses for such as these, only
to tell you I do not judge someone's salvation by what they do or do
not do, but rather what their attitude is.
Our attitude toward our sin is why we say "they were not of us"
and why 1John says we cannot go on sinning and claim we know Him.
And no, the church is the way it is because one's like this are
not under church discipline, dear.
Sure, there is rebellion and there is confusion - you don't think this
is true of Solomon?
But a true believer cannot remain in continuous, wilfull, unrepentant sin no
more than a goat is a sheep by simply believing he is a sheep - they are deceived.
Good brothers and sisters like you and me will go and try to restore the
rebellious, confused, and comatose ones.
If they refuse and are completely unrepentant, they are not sheep, period.
He knows his sheep and his sheep know him.
Its not so much about whether he's infatuated with Buddha or
his pickup, what's important is whether he knows its wrong.
You know what - you are actually being very presumptuous and judgmental
by claiming Solomon was an atheist?
You are concluding he no longer loved God because of his actions --
-- do you realize that?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 3:58:23 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
rwe,
I think you and I are friends and brothers. At 52 years old, I'm still struggling with
how I was saved too. My big question has always been "Why me?" I may throw
some egg on your arguments every now and again, but I greatly respect you.
Just wanted to say that.
HK - I know I once accused you of being caustic - I take that back because
for one, I see your tone changing and two, FG can drive one absolutely batty
with his post-salvation theology.
FYI he is of the FreeGrace movement, Check out Grace Evangelical Society
for the basis of his theory.
As for the "why me", my only difference with you I think would be you think
you were chosen and I think I was preserved for just this time and day.
But I'll tell you what I've learned - and believe me, I've learned ALOT over
the last 2 1/2 years of studying Calvinism - would you believe I would
argue and argue over Conditional Salvation and read up on all Dan Corner's
stuff?
But I'll tell you - most people I have concluded don't really care at all how
they were saved - they are perfectly fine being confident in a decision
or a promise or church membership, or whatever, but NOT the miracle
that should have occurred - THAT is what keeps us secure, not
whatever we think we believe with our sinful minds!
Look at the Doctrine of Assurance - is it even taught anymore?
We've become so man-centered we sit around debating whether
an atheist who "once believed" is saved! If he believed anything
it was a fairy tale and Satan masquerades as Little Bo Peep.
And what passes for worship these days is ..... well I need to quit.
BTW, how come you Calvinist guys have all the good music these days?
Matt Redman, Chris Tomlin, Tim Hughes, Mark Hall.......
And how come you guys have such the great preachers?
Later.
BTW, don't dismiss the class yet, I really think Del is confused.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 4:15:27 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
So, rw, do you really think this verse is teaching that one
must "hold firmly" to the gospel?
Seems so if "word" = "gospel" and not just nice suggestions
only to make Christians good little Boy and Girl Scouts,
as you seem to think.
quote:
Doesn't that sound just like human effort and works to you?
Absolutely not.
What "effort" is there in our salvation? Only in sanctification.
We are to "run the race" even though the race is already won, Free!
We are to "labor and strive" even though Christ already did the heavy lifting.
We are to "press on" to lay hold of what Christ has already obtained for us.
Yeah, sounds like work to me!
Its really not a dirty word, you know.
quote:
A couple of things: first, the conditional "if" must be recognized
as either one of the 4 classes of condition. iow, a 1st class condition
means basically "reality", or they ARE believing the gospel. Note the
verse doesn't say "keep on holding firmly
Sorry, but I am not qualified to debate grammar with you, Free.
I just know "if" means it is a condition for something else, that's all.
quote:
Second, the word for "vain" means "without purpose, or without success".
Now, how can believing the gospel of Jesus Christ be without purpose or success?
Without consulting a reference, I'll tell you I have always interpreted "vain"
as meaning "for nothing". So in this case, if you do not truly believed, then
whatever you believed was "for nothing" - as in it will not save you.
quote:
being confident of this, that he who began a good work in
you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Phil 1:6
This speaks of one's salvation.
All of it, not only justification.
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iow, no one can throw away they salvation
One cannot throw away what they never had to begin with, either.
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Remember, it is God who saves, not our believing that does.
Therefore, even if the faith fails down the road, once regenerated, always
regenerated. That does not change. You would have to provide me with
a verse that plainly teaches that before I can believe it.
With this statement you are not truly believing God keeps you saved, now are you, friend?
You are believing a promise keeps you saved.
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Plain language in Scripture is to be taken literally.
Again, once born again, God doesn't un-born us.
Trouble is, your theology gives birth to goats, not sheep.
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The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 4:23:40 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Do you all agree the 3 main facets of the Gospel are
1. Repent
2. Believe
3. Receive the Holy Spirit???
If so, why do you think its can all be temporary?
Who ever said it was "all" temporary? Once the Holy Spirit is received
that is absolutely permanent, if you believe the Bible and Eph 4:30.
The Holy Spirit cannot deny itself, neither does it go dormant
because a man simply decided to follow Buddha.
You claim it is God who saves and keeps us saved, but then you put
man in charge of the Holy Spirit!
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Actually, even unbelievers who state the gospel correctly can be
instrumental in one becoming saved.
I don't doubt it for a minute, Free.
Just look at some of the preaching... people get saved in SPITE of it!
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At 52 years of age, I am still trying to figure out exactly how I got saved.
If you can't answer that one, you really do have a problem.
Naw.....I'm not nervous about it at all, Free.
I know what he has done for me because of who I now am.....not what I think,
not a decison in the past, not believing a promise...
As for me having a problem.....I have many.
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You believed that the the Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross for
you and gives you eternal life.
This is not assurance - trusting in what my mind tells me.
"Christ in me".................now THAT'S assurance!
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 4:35:09 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: Odeliya
 ..RWE, how sad… your position of justifying sin by covering it with pretty words and nice Doctor Phil- like, politically correct speech is so reflective of the position that modern church holds..
I wish I could be more successful in explaining to you how bad and detrimental your view of seeing sin lightly is.....
More proof I am a poor communicator, dear.
Because you completely mis read me.
I view sin quite heavily - but I am responsible only for my own sin,
not yours, or Solomon's - and you simply CANNOT be the judge
of whether he was an atheist or not based on what he did or did not do.
I can cross the finish line 95% in the flesh/5% in the Spirit - I will not
cross unless God sustains me.
I might escape as one through the flames - but only because I was
believing something false, but I am still saved.
I can't believe you have driven my to the other side of the
freedom/responsiblity seesaw - but you succeeded!
Wasn't the fact that David succeeded where Solomon failed
proof the in the end Solomon's heart was true?
You REALLY want to think there was an atheist in Jesus' geneology?
Prostitutes, adulterers, murders, maybe, but ATHEISTS?.....
Or is one sin no worse than another? (Another widely used
excuse to an unregenerate goat to be free from guilt).
Later, hon................Hon - Can I say that?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 4:43:31 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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ODELIYA:
THat is what i am trying to get you prove to me. You are saying that
If someone dies in a particular sin before repentance of this sin he is not saved.
Provide some support for it!
TIME OUT!!
Two separate issues, Del. No, you will never get anyone to prove
sinless perfection around here - but don't ask that - its not the question.
A. Dying in unbelief. God's judgment determines who this is.
B. Dying in sin - this is what Christ saves us from the penalty!
Why are you mixing up the two?
Dying before a sin is repented - still saved - no argument.
Dying a blaspheming, idolatrous, apostate - ever saved - argument.
Lets keep the two issues separate, please.
And don't give me "unbelief is the same as stealing a penc | | |
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