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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 9:21:15 PM
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rwe2156
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quote:
Verses, please?
1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you,
which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel
you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you.
Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 1Cor 15:1-2
Is an athiest holding firm to the gospel?
being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry
it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus. Phil 1:6
Is God carrying on any work in an atheist?
"But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
Is an atheist doing this?
If an believer could throw away his faith, who is in control of his salvation here?
If you want to claim the Doctrine of the Security of the Believer, you must be a believer!
Yes, you HAVE * BEEN * SAVED - I think you take it too literally, friend!
Might I suggest you HAVE * BEEN * BORN also?
You can make yourself an atheist no more than you can unborn yourself, Free.
Sorry FG and Del, but its really a pitiful theology - ruinous to a struggling Christian
and justifies the deceived one who never knew Him.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 9:31:45 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2485
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 SIH , i start understanding why some people put you on block....
I presume you have nothing to say to the point? So no answer to the actual question?
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 9:34:12 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
I know I am not talented or good looking enough to convince you,
you just made my day, hon!
you mean I made an impression on you as an emptyhead that can be influenced by smooth talking prettyboys?
Sweet Jewish girls fight quite well - you do yourself proud.
But on this one I beg you to reconsider.
quote:
No, brother. You are perfectly fine.
Fine as in "good man, good family man" or fine as in....we get along on most things?
quote:
AS for the rest of your post - i absolutely agree with your points on
sanctification, etc, etc. And rants about pathetic condition of modern church. too.
I haven't seen a Christian rehab center for "Atheist/Former Christians", have you?
Well I guess any college campus will do, what with 90% or so of so-called Christian
"professors" of faith not so "sold out on Jesus" anymore after the so-called
"professors" of higher education get ahold of them and tear them to pieces.
Its happening to my son right now in the local college. The boy is hanging
tough, though and standing his ground.
quote:
WHat does all that have to do with the subject at hand though?
I hope you see the direct connection between our failed and faulty theology
and the dismal, weak, deceived church in denial of who's really in charge.
As I said, its not God, its the CEO/Pastor, a.k.a. charismatic motivational speaker
and part time purveyor of "your best life now" gospelese.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 9:38:54 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2485
Joined: 8/10/2005
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rwe, don't weasel out, friend. Answer about Solomon.
I honestly - sorry for having such short memory - dont remember if you are OSAS or not , rwe, ( I think you are)
The problem with holding to " no atheist can be saved" and to OSAS in the same time is Solomon and people like him.
Solomon walked away from faith, was worshipping other gods, his heart turned away from One True God.
Yet - ATTENTION! - during that time he was saved. That didnt cause a break in his salvation. So here we have a BIBLICAL case of someone who , while being just as good as an atheist that was in the same time, saved.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 9:41:05 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
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Do you all agree the 3 main facets of the Gospel are
1. Repent
2. Believe
3. Receive the Holy Spirit???
If so, why do you think its can all be temporary?
Why to you think the Holy Spirit remains only if a man gives him permission?
Once Saved Always Saved is a damnable thing in the hands of a false teacher, agree?
BTW, I gave this as a Wed night study tonight.
NOBODY got it. Answers included
1. get baptized
2. profess Jesus
3. give a testimony
and other such things.
At 52 years of age, I am still trying to figure out exactly how I got saved.
Crazy, huh?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 9:42:54 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2485
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
I haven't seen a Christian rehab center for "Atheist/Former Christians", have you?
Well I guess any college campus will do, what with 90% or so of so-called Christian
"professors" of faith not so "sold out on Jesus" anymore after the so-called
"professors" of higher education get ahold of them and tear them to pieces.
Its happening to my son right now in the local college. The boy is hanging
tough, though and standing his ground.
-----
I hope you see the direct connection between our failed and faulty theology
and the dismal, weak, deceived church in denial of who's really in charge.
As I said, its not God, its the CEO/Pastor, a.k.a. charismatic motivational speaker
and part time purveyor of "your best life now" gospelese.
Amen to every word you say. I agree totally. The situation is pathetic, downright pathetic.
God Bless your boy!
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 9:47:15 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Once Saved Always Saved is a damnable thing in the hands of a false teacher, agree?
Duh.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 9:48:33 PM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
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quote:
To the point, please- If Solomon would have died while worshipping other gods he would have been lost?
That is not to the point. Nobody on this side argues that a person cannot backslide. But every backslider came back to the Lord before his died. The Holy Spirit does not reveal to us through rationalistic hypotheses, but through plain truth. What is stated is stated. Don't get the idea God puts a lot of stock in our reasoning ability, he talks down to us like children. This business about Solomon is grasping at straws, he is not evidence for your case because he was drawn back in the end as was David. God preserves his own, even from themselves.
quote:
I agree with FG - seem like you are thinking we sustain out salvation by our own efforts.That is troubling
This is not worth answering. I think we've made the point very clearly throughout these discussions that all ability comes from God. that has always been central to our doctrine. This is too funny. We accuse FW of of salvation by our own efforts, you all continuously argue in favor of effort of some sort, and now this turn around? Agree with FG. How can you find a point of agreement on his shifting grounds. Agree with rwe, if you don't agree with the rest of us. I respect his stability; there's no irrational gamestering and equivocation in his discussion.
There is not thing wrong with the 1 John passage I gave except that it blows this doctrine that busts your pluralistic doctrine. Of course "They" who went out from us were unbelievers. That is the point. What were they when they were with us? Unbelievers ("wolves in sheeps clothing" in Jesus language) incognito. What were they when they went out? Unbelievers exposed by the light of God's word. Does the parable of the wheat and the tares ring any bells... hon.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 9:55:43 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2485
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Fine as in "good man, good family man" or fine as in....we get along on most things?
I am sure you are great husband and dad and good friend and coworker.
As for getting along that doenst matter.
I think you are fine because you are a good, believeing, God loving and fearing Chirstian brother.
I love all brothers, them holding to C or A doesnt matter to me. I love John SIH with whom i disagree just as much as i love you , KJ, FG or Shema,with whom i also disagree on some issues :)) I love people in general, sincerely.I am not some pious church she dog. Well,on occasion:)
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 10:01:29 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2485
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I see.... based on what you said i presume i cornered you, HK .
But i give you another chance - answer THIS POST, last paragraph especially.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 10:02:22 PM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
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FG,
quote:
What is your point? When the gift of eternal life is given, it is not taken back.
It is your presumption that God is bound and man is not. You tie God down with having to come through on his end of the bargain while the man gets to walk at will. God is not an idiot who strikes bad bargains with infidels. What an insult to his omniscience. Paul has a good phrase for this kind of thinking: me genoita! God forbid it! This is pure libertinism.a
quote:
If I've given any "faulty inferences", why don't you point them out instead of merely claiming such?
That is all I’ve been doing since I came onto this thread.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 10:04:40 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2485
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HardKnox
... hon.
I havent given you permission for such familiarity, Sir.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 10:05:05 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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Odeliya
quote:
To the point, please- If Solomon would have died while worshipping
other gods he would have been lost?
I think you are confused on this. We do nothing do maintain our
salvation just like we did nothing righteous to earn it.
But what we received when we were born again was the Holy Spirit
and Christ shed his precious, perfect blood in order for it to be possible.
And you think the recipient of such grace can simply throw it all away
simply because you like to think God promised something? This is a
childish view of the gospel, IMNSHO.
As for Solomon, who say this makes him an atheist? I should thing He would
be worshipping no gods at all! Perhaps he was a little confused or rebellious?
And what about me? What if I worship my truck, or boat, or house, or body (body?)
-- am I not also an idolater? Of course I am - not an atheist, dear. If I was to
die while waxing my truck at 11:15 Sunday AM I'm going to hell? - this is what
you think the other side of your view is?
But 1 John should slap you around quite a bit with all the talk of not sinning,
not loving, etc. and not knowing him.....what do you make of that?
Its the pattern, Del, it the "movie of our life" if you will - if we are living
in unrepentant, continuous and wilful sin - we might not know him.
Why do you insist on justifying this one?
If you agree with Free on this, you must be of the "I'm OK, You're OK Church of Optional
Sanctification" --- "Man is in Control" sect or something.......
quote:
I agree with FG - seem like you are thinking we sustain out salvation
by our own efforts.That is troubling
That's not what is about at all, dear.
Oh how I wish I was a better communicator!
We have received something, sister - something so radical, so new,
so scandalous we can't even begin to imagine it - a supernatural rebirth
by which we become one of His, grafted in.....
and you want us to believe a sheep can become a goat and still be a sheep?
PLEASE reconsider your position.......please?
BTW, sorry for the "preacherese" or "sermonese" as you call it...........................
But in trying to ram a fairly big hunk of meat down someone's throat
you sometimes have to finesse it alittle....... 
Chew on it abit and decide if Solomon really was an atheist.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 10:12:03 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2485
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
As for Solomon, who say this makes him an atheist? I should thing He would
be worshipping no gods at all! Perhaps he was a little confused or rebellious?
wait a minute. So one person i know ( modern day Solomon) leaves church, studies Budhism, worhsips another religion, denounces One God by his actions - and you seem to justify such behaivor as Perhaps he was a little confused or rebellious?
No wonder the church is in such terrible condition. No preaching truth, just poltical correct covering up for sins with nice wording, as you just did!!
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 10:12:34 PM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
Joined: 11/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
I see.... based on what you said i presume i cornered you, HK .
That'll be the day.
quote:
But i give you another chance - answer THIS POST, last paragraph especially.
He did not die an atheist. Duh. Think we can get back to a real argument now?
Know what his Dad said? "The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God."
Know what the son replied? "The lips of the righteous feed many: but fools die for want of wisdom."
Proverbs clearly defines a fool as unregenerate and unbelieving. No fool goes to heaven.
Rev. 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Thus saith the Lord. Case closed. No atheists in heaven. Class dismissed.
< Message edited by HardKnox -- 11/19/2008 10:18:35 PM >
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 10:24:57 PM
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HardKnox
Posts: 448
Joined: 11/6/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Odeliya
quote:
To the point, please- If Solomon would have died while worshipping
other gods he would have been lost?
I think you are confused on this. We do nothing do maintain our
salvation just like we did nothing righteous to earn it.
But what we received when we were born again was the Holy Spirit
and Christ shed his precious, perfect blood in order for it to be possible.
And you think the recipient of such grace can simply throw it all away
simply because you like to think God promised something? This is a
childish view of the gospel, IMNSHO.
As for Solomon, who say this makes him an atheist? I should thing He would
be worshipping no gods at all! Perhaps he was a little confused or rebellious?
And what about me? What if I worship my truck, or boat, or house, or body (body?)
-- am I not also an idolater? Of course I am - not an atheist, dear. If I was to
die while waxing my truck at 11:15 Sunday AM I'm going to hell? - this is what
you think the other side of your view is?
But 1 John should slap you around quite a bit with all the talk of not sinning,
not loving, etc. and not knowing him.....what do you make of that?
Its the pattern, Del, it the "movie of our life" if you will - if we are living
in unrepentant, continuous and wilful sin - we might not know him.
Why do you insist on justifying this one?
If you agree with Free on this, you must be of the "I'm OK, You're OK Church of Optional
Sanctification" --- "Man is in Control" sect or something.......
quote:
I agree with FG - seem like you are thinking we sustain out salvation
by our own efforts.That is troubling
That's not what is about at all, dear.
Oh how I wish I was a better communicator!
We have received something, sister - something so radical, so new,
so scandalous we can't even begin to imagine it - a supernatural rebirth
by which we become one of His, grafted in.....
and you want us to believe a sheep can become a goat and still be a sheep?
PLEASE reconsider your position.......please?
BTW, sorry for the "preacherese" or "sermonese" as you call it...........................
But in trying to ram a fairly big hunk of meat down someone's throat
you sometimes have to finesse it alittle.......
Chew on it abit and decide if Solomon really was an atheist.
rwe,
I think you and I are friends and brothers. At 52 years old, I'm still struggling with how I was saved too. My big question has always been "Why me?" I may throw some egg on your arguments every now and again, but I greatly respect you. Just wanted to say that.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 10:48:28 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
The problem with holding to " no atheist can be saved" and to OSAS in the same time is Solomon and people like him.
Where did "no atheist can be saved" enter the picture?
quote:
Solomon walked away from faith, was worshipping other gods, his heart turned away from One True God.
So believers fall in and out of salvation during their life?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 10:50:43 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
No wonder the church is in such terrible condition. No preaching truth, just poltical correct covering up for sins with nice wording, as you just did!!
Now, now remember there is only one Gospel...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 11:12:14 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2485
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
now remember there is only one Gospel...
i always said this.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 11:13:47 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2485
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
The problem with holding to " no atheist can be saved" and to OSAS in the same time is Solomon and people like him.
Where did "no atheist can be saved" enter the picture?
Read the thread...Carefully... Before you jump in... so you know what we talking about....
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 11:21:06 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2485
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
HardKnox
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
I see.... based on what you said i presume i cornered you, HK .
That'll be the day.
Sure. Its today.
So you dont have the answer to the question, except presenting the strawmen.
I REPEAT :
The problem with holding to " no atheist can be saved" and OSAS in the same time is Solomon and people like him. Solomon walked away from faith, was worshipping other gods, his heart turned away from One True God.
Yet - ATTENTION! - during that time he was saved. That didnt cause a break in his salvation. So here we have a BIBLICAL case of someone who , while being just as good as an atheist that was in the same time, saved.
Why is it so hard to admit you have no answer instead of finding some lame excuses and changing subject?
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/19/2008 11:44:24 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 3751
Joined: 3/30/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Shema - your example doesnt apply here because, look: People in the verse are NOT BELIEVERS. They are in danger of perishing. Believers OTOH , cant perish ( lose salvation )
So for your verse to prove what you want it to prove you have to dismiss your belief in OSAS and say that believers can actually lose salvation.
Fellow Pink Lady, I respectfully disagree. The verse can support my point.
First, I believe that verse to be speaking to and about believers--both past, current, and future--not those who aren't or won't be saved.
Second, OSAS doesn't have to disappear. God doesn't want any of his flock to perish, so he's patient with them when they're backslidden, even to the point of entertaining atheistic thoughts or adoration of false gods. The Holy Spirit works within the sinner to bring him to repentance. No salvation lost.
Honestly, though, as I told FG, I don't believe than anyone born again (truly saved) can turn away from God to that irreverant of a degree--to become an atheist. The premise of the scenario's false.
With that said, perhaps my usage of that verse was misguided for this particular discussion...
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 12:53:49 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
The problem with holding to " no atheist can be saved" and to OSAS in the same time is Solomon and people like him.
Where did "no atheist can be saved" enter the picture?
Read the thread...Carefully... Before you jump in... so you know what we talking about....
I read the following...
You posted...
I understand your point, TC, but you made a statement one can die an atheist and have eternal life and said it cant happen.
The only jumping is to conclusions...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 12:58:17 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5935
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
now remember there is only one Gospel...
i always said this.
I know... But you mentioned no preaching of the truth... How can that happen?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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