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Since ALL Scripture is profitable, why would Jesus have any "secret motives" when warning either non-elect, or "pre-faith" elect?

Neither makes sense, from the reformed pov

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ORIGINAL: Carico

Job 14:4 "Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one." In other words, the sinful nature cannot decide to believe in God. Only the Holy Spirit can make us believe because faith is a gift from God so that no one can boast."

Job 14:5, "Man's days are determined; you have decreed the number of his months and have set limits he cannot exceed."

So free will? Hardly. Arminians simply don't believe the bible. They have made up a god of their imaginations and determined who they think he should be because they don't like the God of the bible since they ignore most of His words. They don't want to believe that there's a power higher than themselves any more than unbelievers do. They want to believe that they determine what will happen in their lives, not God. They thus worship humans, not God, all the while paying lip service to Jesus Christ our Lord.

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ORIGINAL: Diolectic

Read Job 1 - 2
God proved Job would not curse him to His face no matter what(Job 1:12)

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Do you actualy know that God's sovereignty only means "Ultimate authority, and all are accountable to Him?
It sounds as if you think it means ultimate control and cause of everything.

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I said that man comes to the truth by another.
That is what "someone needed to tell you the truth" means.

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I know it sisn't happen.
I'm asking if God's power could be shown in Pharaoh yielding?
It don't matter if it happend or not, but the posibility.
Tell me How God's power couldn't be shown in Pharaoh yielding?

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Because that was the judgment. God had Pharaoh to bring more condemnation on himself by a continued hrd heart.God was judging Pharaoh by hardening his heart after Pharaoh did it first

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Don't you think that 911 was a judgment of God?
Howbout Hurricane Katrina?

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Given God's knowledge of Pharaoh and those exact circumstances of his life in this created world, God knows that in this situation Pharaoh would have the greatest posible chanc of repenting.

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Pharaoh's choice might very well be to repent in a different situation that a different "alternative possible world" would cause; However, Pharaoh's repentance would effects other's repentance &/or unrepentance as well as theirs effecting the future which would have caused less to repent.

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If Pharaoh were in another position,

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God knew axactly what would happen and what we would freely choose in this world as he does in other possible created words. God created this world out of a seemingly infinite possible number other worlds; and with this world in which we are in, the most possible souls repent with the least amount of judgment and accountability for those who do not. So, God created this world out of all of his possibilities. God created all that would happen in the sense that God created a world in which all possible choices were known by him in advance. In this way, the one could claim to have the best of all possible created worlds by combining several very important theological themes that often seem to contradict one another

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That was never said nor implyed.
When it said, "But God grieved over the sin that man's free will created."
It means that man created the sin.Just as Lucifer created sin in his own heart.

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How do you know that Pharaoh wouldn't have gone after them?

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If it ian't you who says them. It is other calv.s who do.

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Tell me how what I said is not true in your theology/doctrines?

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What?I did it to day already.
First I wanted pancakes then I changed my mind to french toast.

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My Dad turned away from speaking harshly to his wife toward speaking softly.
He changed his mind of how he will act.

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Wheres the answer?
If I missed it, please post a link.

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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace

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ORIGINAL: Theophile2

I'll tell you what. If you can answer for me why God would tell us not to sin, to perfectly follow all of His commandments and to be as Holy as He is when we all know that we can't, then I will work to find you the same answer as it relates to believing in Christ as our Savior. Deal?

May God bless your studies.

I'll tell you what. I've repeatedly asked asked a very legitimate question regarding John 8:24. Most recent is 32878. If you would kindly give me your opinion as to WHY Jesus said what He did to either "non-elect" or "pre-faith" elect, then I'll give your question a go, OK?

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ORIGINAL: EricB

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ORIGINAL: kelman
You say God "wouldn't have to" but the point is He did. We see the prophesy concerning Judas in the OT(Psalm 41:9). Obviously, none of the other wicked would qualify. If a prophecy is certain to happen then it must be ordained.

That actually doesn't specify the individual soul Judas. Anyone could have fallen into that place.

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Cute...but not responsive to what I actually said. Unless, of course you do think that God no longer punishes sin.

Not about punishing sin, but the fact that this is called "the Gospel" means that if God did everything the same as in the OT, we would all be lost.

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Actually, God insists that man is accountable. God determined the crucifixion of Christ, the evildoers chose to sin according to their nature and inclinations and God holds them accountable.

And then life is just a ploy of God to condemn most people to Hell and say it was their fault, but calling them "accountable", when they were really "helpless".

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The fact that the passage says that "before either had done good or evil" is clear indication God is speaking of individuals. No one is "scripting" a sequence of events to justify anything; but, it does appear you are attempting to "script" your way out of what is very clear - the election of individuals.

And now you've jumped back again. For "before they were born" says nothing about them going to Heaven or Hell. It is about them being chosen to bring forth the nation of God's people and the Messiah.

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Still, I don't think generally God gives "false" faith. Man does a good enough job of that himself. I say generally because we do see God sends a false delusion in 2Thes 2:11.

And that isn't to people who "thought" they had faith.

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As for this ongoing circular debate on John 8:24,

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the reformists might as well just end it by going on and confessing that God is in fact taunting the non-elect.

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Luther did say that part of God, in commanding what man cannot do was "deservedly taunting and mocking...His proud enemies" (Bondage of the Will).

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Goes right along with Calvin's "God giving false faith", and now people say he was wrong on that.

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Why do the Reformists seem to be avoiding owning up to all of this? Perhaps the same reason non-Calvinists reject the entire doctrine altogether?

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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Frankly, the point that Bee and I have made should make you shudder, in light of your theology.

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What it means is obvious to anyone without a "stupid" agenda. Whether something is or is not a parable does not mean you don't know the difference between a parable and a narrative and you know darn well it doesn't. He was simply indicating that the principle is the SAME because Christ preached to those He KNEW would not believe when He taught in parables as He was doing in John 8:24; and, I might add in many other passages as well.

What he "indicated" is not relevant to my question of WHY Jesus would warn the "non-elect",

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WHY He would even say to them, "unless you believe that I am He", since, if reformed theology were true, Jesus would have clearly known they were NOT chosen for the gift of faith. Why can't YOU explain that?

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Now, can you explain WHY would say what He did to either group, in light of your own theology?

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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace

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ORIGINAL: kelman
Yes, it does have you ordaining yourself to eternal life. After all, the verse doesn't say they are lined-up "to hear". It says they are tasso'd TO ETERNAL LIFE.

I wish you would read more closely.

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I addressed that, kelman. Did you bother reading v.43 and 44? What do they say? Those verses show that the Gentiles were very interesting in eternal life, which is what Paul was preaching. By their literally begging him to return the next Sabbath, and "nearly the whole town turned out", I think it's quite safe to conclude that they were very interested in eternal life. THAT is what they were "lining up" for.

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True, in your theology it is irrelevant - but not to Christ since He took the time to explain about the second soil "and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have". In addition, you continually ignore Christ told us that the second soil has NO ROOT. Don't you realize that Christ is the "Root"?...therefore, the second soil did not have Christ, iow, they were NOT saved.

Are you still going to use your defense of "no root"?

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If you agree that plants #2 and #3 demonstrated initial growth out of the ground, you HAVE to conclude they had a root.

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The phrase "no root" is understood by NASB translators as "had no firm root".

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I have, you just don't recognize an answer when you see it. This is how Christ taught. He preached the Gospel to the elect and to the NON-elect just as we are to preach the Gospel to everyone even, though, we UNLIKE Christ do not know who the non-elect are.

I always recognize a non-answer. Where do you address the WHY.

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Now, you can go ahead and make a free will interpretation all you want; but, the fact remains, Christ does not speak of their free will. He is simply teaching the Gospel to ALL in Jn 8:24 as He does the same elsewhere.

Why, though, in light of your reformed theology. As humans, we cannot know who is elect or not, so we "preach to every creature". But He certainly knows who is and isn't. Can you answer WHY He said what He said to both groups?

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So, you deny that the phrase "unless you believe" suggests a potential for avoiding the problem of dying in your sins? Please explain why you deny that "unless" isn't a potential.

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otoh, telling the "pre-faith elect" that they will die in their sins unless they believe in Him seems rather meaningless, since, being the elect, from your pov, they cannot die in their sins, and they WILL believe.

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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace

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ORIGINAL: SureHope
As far as this debate goes, it does not mean loving God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength.

I asked in a recent post, do you sin continuously, or occasionally? When one is NOT sinning, why can't they be loving God with every fiber? As I said, this isn't a "all or nothing" issue.

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You are the only one in control of your sinning or not sinning. You can’t blame it on Adam or say, “the devil made me do it.” If you were more than willing to stop sinning you would stop sinning.

I blame my sin nature for my sin, as Paul did in Rom 6 and 7. Your last statement here indicates you do not understand the sin nature. I don't want to sin, but my sin nature does. There is a constant battle between my sin nature and my human spirit, as Paul noted.

Paul did not blame sin on sin nature in Rom 6, What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? (Rom 6:1-2 ESV)

Why did you stop at v.2? What about v.11-13? Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore (conclusion) do NOT let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts, and do NOT go on presenting the members of your body to sin...".

Do you see who is the "cause" of sin here? It is when we "go on presenting our bodies to sin". We are commanded to "not let sin reign" in our bodies. And we are not to continue presenting ourselves to sin.

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Paul was calling on the will of Christians to stop sinning and live righteously. He is not saying that Christians have an excuse for their sin, quite the opposite. No one makes you sin but yourself. You have free will, remember?

Are you saying Paul's command cannot be obeyed by believers? He said to not "go on presenting our bodies to sin".

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When you sin you are doing the opposite of loving God. What you just admitted is that you are unable to fulfill God’s command to love Him with every fiber of your being.

Just thought of something. Are you suggesting the command must be continuous? If not, then it is certainly possible to do it at times.

If it is possible for a person to be sinless for one minute does in no way mean that he is fulfilling the purpose for which God created him. God created man to love Him all the time, not for a few moments of a day with God dishonoring, God belittling sin in-between.

Why do you insist that man is unable to fulfill the command even some of the time? What Scripture supports that?

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Actually, your pov is rather silly: God created mankind to seek Him, yet "forgot" or "didn't know how" to create the "preference" needed to seek. The very fact that God created mankind to seek Him should be obvious to anyone with on open mind and desire to seek truth that God would NOT create man without the "necessary preference" to do what He created him to do.

That is your assumption. But if you think my position is silly than you don’t believe in the freedom of the will. Man is free to do that which he prefers to do; that which he wants to do.

Well, did God "forget" to add the ability to seek Him or not? If He created man to seek Him, man HAS the ability to do so. Many don't, and many have

Did God forget to give you the ability to love Him with all your heart, mind, soul and strength? Did God forget to give you the ability to be sinless and perfect even though he commands us to be perfect?

No, He didn't and my point is that when believers aren't sinning, they are able to love Him with every fiber.

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Sin is the issue so it must be mentioned. So you don’t think that sin is diametrically opposed to loving God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength? That is the position that your are putting forth. David was dependent upon the grace of God. He offered sacrifices to God to cover his sin. David knew that he was a sinner before God and had failed to fulfill God’s moral law. David is a great example of one who did not fulfill that which God had created him for and that which God commands. Because of this David was reliant upon the grace of God alone.

Did David sin continuously? When he wasn't sinning, but being dependent on the grace of God and offering sacrifices to God to cover his sin, was he loving God with every fiber or not? Please explain.

The reason that David and all other OT saints offered Sin Sacrifices to God was because they sinned continuously enough to have to offer the sacrifices.

Hold on. your words "continuously enough" is self contradictory. The word "continuously" doesn't leave room for "enough". We either sin continuously, or we sin less than continuously. Certainly we sin "enough" that we must regularly confess them to God. But you seem confused on the concept by saying "continuously enough". It is either continuous or it isn't. "enough" isn't part of the issue. There is no such thing as "continuously enough".

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A person that loves God with every fiber of his being will not love anything else above God. That will only happen when we are in heaven with God. God did not make man to love Him some of the time. So even if a person managed to love God with his complete being for a few moments he has not fulfilled the reason for God creating him.

You've offered your opinion. Thanks. But I'm interested in what Scripture says. I find nothing that suggests that God is expecting continuous holiness. The command to be holy doesn't demand continuously. We can be holy, and God expects us to be holy. And, as we grow in grace, we WILL sin less and less. That IS God's expectation. I believe that is the point of 2 Pet 3:18, "but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."

As the believer grows spiritually, he spends more time being holy than being sinful. That's the point.

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Ah, and my point is that no believer sins continuously. So, what are believers doing when they aren't sinning? Why can't you accept that when believers aren't sinning, they are able to love God with every fiber?

Again, God created man to love Him continuously, not in starts and spurts.

For that, I need Scriptural support, not an opinion.

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Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins. (Ecclesiastes 7:20 NASB95)

Exactly my point! It isn't "all or nothing". We all sin, but we don't sin continuously. What are we doing when we aren't sinning?

We can be thankful for God's grace alone. God's Law requires 100% obedience, which translates into continously loving Him.

I've never seen the phrase "100% obedience" in Scripture. Where do you find it? I think you are injecting your opinion here.

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Sinning is not merely outward actions, but attitudes, thoughts, affections, desires, etc. The exhortation to grow in grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus, the fact that we are being transformed from glory to glory, and the fact that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of the Son of God shows us that we are not perfected as of yet. Therefore, we do not love perfectly as God deserves and God requires. Thank God we are justified by faith!

This issue is not about perfection "yet". Of course that occurs in eternity. But on earth, we are commanded and expected to spend less and less time in sin, and more time being holy.

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Sin is the opposite of loving God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. Sin shows that the heart is divided; that there are preferences to things other than God Himself. Job was someone who sinned and who repented, showing that he too is an example of someone who did not live up to God’s purpose and command to love Him with all your being, but trusted God’s grace and mercy.

Again, do you sin continuously or occasionally?

see above

Even though you apparently do sin continuously, that is not what the Christian life is about. I think you need to study the issue quite a bit more until you realize that the growing believer will sin less and less.

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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace

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ORIGINAL: SureHope

You disagree with me that seeking God denotes that someone does not know Him? Why would someone seek that which he already knows?

Knowing that someone exists cannot be equivalent to "knowing the person". You and I are aware of many people, but do we "know" them? If you are married, were you aware of your (future) wife's existence before you pursued her? Of course you had to have been aware of her existence before you pursued her. How could even pursue her if you weren't aware of her existence?

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Our sin has separated us from God, thus we don’t know God in truth and thus the need to seek Him. It is only sinners (all of us) who have a need to seek God.

That's true. And that's why God made Himself evident to us; so we would seek Him.

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Why is it that someone does not know God? The reason men do not know God is because of sin.

The ONLY reason people don't know God is because they fail to seek Him. Because, if they did seek Him, as the Scriptures promise, they WILL find Him.

I agree with that statement from the responsibility of man vantage point. But I will add – the only reason that people do know God is because God has given them light to see the glory of Christ in the gospel.

I fully agree with this. God gives "initial" light in the form of His existence, so men will be aware of Him, and "perhaps" seek Him, per Acts 17:27. Those who respond to that are given more, as we have seen from Cornelius and the angel.

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Even though God has revealed Himself in creation, man has chosen not to honor Him as God (many believe that God exists, but do not honor Him as the God that He has revealed Himself to be in creation) or give thanks. All are without excuse for Sin. The essence of sin is being God dishonoring.

No, all are without excuse for not seeking Him. Since you and completely disagree on what we are without excuse, there is no reason to continue this endless discussion.

Romans 1 does not say all are without excuse for not seeking Him, but all are without excuse for not honoring Him as God and giving thanks. There is a very big difference between the two.

That's why this discussion must end. I am convinced that "honoring Him as God and giving thanks" is what seeking God is all about. Just what Cornelius demonstrated.

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ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond

FreeGrace,

Did you even read the Scripture text or did you just skip over it as fast as you could so you could post a quick rebuke to me even though I provided clear text?

There is simply no pleasing you at all. I provide Scripture text and I am rebuked for it. When I provide my own comments I am rebuked for those also. When I provide the comments of others like from the WCF I am rebuked for those also.

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Do you suppose the text I gave shows that the devil is going to devour His sheep?

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4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.

5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice."

6Jesus used this figure of speech, but they did not understand what he was telling them.
and'

25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe.

The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.

29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.

30I and the Father are one."

It is a figure of speech He was using and some people do not understand what He was saying.

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If you do understand what He was saying, dont you think that His sheep are in pretty good hands?

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Would you think Satan is going to devour them?

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Cant you even try to understand the point of my post?

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3. Jesus tells people things but they do not believe.

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These are just a few things that I can grasp out of the text.

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ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace,
You told me this;

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Since ALL Scripture is profitable, why would Jesus have any "secret motives" when warning either non-elect, or "pre-faith" elect?
Neither makes sense, from the reformed pov

I supposed you really meant that.
If I supply Scripture with Jesus telling more truth to people that He claims are incapable or unable to believe.....it shows that the question you keep asking us is only your attempt to build a human ability doctrine.
That is what I did.

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I provided text where Jesus was teaching people with parables even though He knew good and well that many of them would never understand and believe.

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Now, either all Scripture is profitable or its not.

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The question is....are we going to profit from clear Scripture even if it is in parables or are we going to reject it?

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Here is another one to ponder;

12Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?"

13He replied, "Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots.

14Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

If these blind guides which Jesus implies are like plants that have not been planted by His Father are capable of believing.....why does He say to leave them instead of 'hurry and try to convince them'?

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ORIGINAL: Carico
Job 14:4 "Who can bring what is pure from the impure? No one." In other words, the sinful nature cannot decide to believe in God. Only the Holy Spirit can make us believe because faith is a gift from God so that no one can boast."

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Job 14:5, "Man's days are determined; you have decreed the number of his months and have set limits he cannot exceed."
So free will? Hardly.

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Arminians simply don't believe the bible.

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They have made up a god of their imaginations and determined who they think he should be because they don't like the God of the bible since they ignore most of His words. They don't want to believe that there's a power higher than themselves any more than unbelievers do. They want to believe that they determine what will happen in their lives, not God. They thus worship humans, not God, all the while paying lip service to Jesus Christ our Lord.

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ORIGINAL: shemaromans

FG,

Why did Jesus walk the earth proclaiming his mission to both the elect and non-elect?

1. Because that is part of God’s plan, whether we understand his plan or not. (If we're honest with ourselves, we know that none of us know exactly what God has planned and exactly how he intends to go about accomplishing his will.) Jesus came into the world to do God’s will. God wanted him to tell the good news to everyone. It appears that God intends to use the gospel as a means to glorify himself in the future.

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Throughout scripture, we see reference to God’s plan and his will ultimately prevailing. That’s what the word says in spite of what doctrine any of us might believe. So we should all be able to agree that God’s will and plan shall successfully unfold. What we also should see is that there’s more to this plan than our salvation. We’re just a little part of the plan. God has bigger goals in mind besides saving us, and his saving us works towards accomplishing those goals. He has a plan to show the powers and authorities in the heavenly areas that he’s almighty God. One of the ways that he accomplishes this is by uniting Jews and Gentiles (Eph 3).

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Also along those lines, it’s possible that God’s using the words of Jesus in the future as quoted in the Bible for all man to see and believe that he’s God, whether they believe prior to Jesus’ return or not.

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2. Because God’s will was for Jesus to fulfill prophecy and lay the groundwork for the spreading of the gospel after his departure.

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How powerful would the gospel be if Jesus never uttered the words that show the path to salvation? How powerful would the words of the gospels be if they couldn’t quote Jesus? Aren’t words more powerful when they come from the source?

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3a. (ignoring for a minute the dispute as to the means in which salvation comes to pass) Because scripture (Romans 10:14-17) tells us that God chose to reveal the truth about salvation through speaking and hearing.

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3b. (ignoring for a minute the dispute as to our ability to choose) Because scripture tells us that we must know the truth in order to believe. How can we (RT or FW) know the truth if it’s never stated? We wouldn’t know what the options of our choices are.

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Those are several reasons (some definite, some speculative, but all according to scripture) why God had Jesus tell both the elect and the non-elect that answer your question. You might (and probably will) disagree. That does not prove that my answers aren't answers. It only means that you disagree with them.

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You have a choice now. You can simply disagree, you can ask for more clarification on certain points, or you can continue to incorrectly assert that the RT camp cannot answer your questions.

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It’s your choice whether or not you want to proceed in this discussion in a fair manner or inaccurately maintain our inability to answer questions in an effort to discredit us and to prove your beliefs.