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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 12:19:41 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up.
Woody Allen
wow.Appreciate the quote!! for a whiny Jew from Brooklyn he evidently has an amazing grip on reality and values professed vs. practiced by us chistians!
Yeah, everyone has their eyes on us...
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 1:14:50 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Not limited to missionaries unfortunately rwe-
It is rampant in the good old USA as well.
Yeah - just wish we could agree on which one. 
But I sat in church this AM listening to one, my friend.
Spouting conspiracy theories about the government and end times.......
Did you know the feds are spying on you through your cable tv?
I met with our head deacon after church and told him my family
would NOT be sitting under that preaching, if that's his pattern.
He's got no more chances with me.
quote:
What's the remedy ...? CALVINISM !!!   
You know I had to do that dude !!!
Expository preaching is a start.
Mark Dever has that right for me (big time Calvy - Piper's big bud).
quote:
Bad preaching, bad teaching, bad churches !
I'll stoke that fire with you any day, bro!
Might I say it this way:
Bad preaching-------------------->Deception------------------------->"Jesus Club"
quote:
There is no "righteous" bullies in the pulpit.
Rather, ear-tickling, belly-scratching, sugary,
sloppy, sancitmonious fluff fed to the listener.
The only thing that tickled me this AM was my ire.
quote:
Let's have a new EXODUS away from manchurch
and return to our roots of meeting in homes with
like-minded believers led by The Holy Ghost !
Things keep going the way the have for me and organized religion,
I am headed that way.
Would you be my first Elder?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 1:21:44 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
No one says go sin like the devil...let's be clear-
Our lovely sister is not being cantankerous...
No, I'm not saying that either, but a discussion of fruit will be fruitless.
quote:
I am not infering anyone is a "PLANKEYE", but listen-
None of us knows the heart, the intentions, the motives,
any of the circumstances involved within a man.
I am not condoning sin, just saying ONLY God knows all.
God knows those who are His own. Why need I worry ?
Look, we are all spiritual children of The Most High God.
We know in an instant who our heavenly siblings are.
You could talk to someone for a moment and discern.
Forget sin - I know we agree.
Do you think fruit is inevitable?
Is holiness a guarantee?
I think they are part of P.
quote:
Someone who lives in sin as a permanent lifestyle-doesn't.
They keep sinning without any fear of God whatsoever.
They were NEVER, EVER saved in the first place.
Totally agree.
Thats' why our churches don't look much like churches.....
...Jesus Clubs run by the flesh by the fleshly.
(Can you tell I'm having a bad ................. decade........with organized religion?
98% of the theology I have learned in the last 5 years I did it myself.
It didn't, wouldn't, couldn't come from my church, even though it should've.
Manna- of this I feel very hopeful: The Al Mohler and the calvy's graduating
from seminary will save the SBC from its hideously deceived self.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 1:36:56 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Is that what Kelman said ?
Or is that what you THINK he said ?
What do you believe his theology to be ?
Manna - does it really matter what I think Kelman's theolgoy is?
Please, please, PLEASE tell me how it it biblical that we are
born again before we believe - I WANT to know.
If Calvinism is true, I WANT to believe it - I sincerely mean this.
quote:
Titus 3:5-7 (King James Version)
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Just give me a verse that says we are born again first, then believe.
quote:
How do you view the text ?
We are not saved by works, but by being born again.
How do you view these texts:
Acts 19:2(NIV)
and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
-->When do we receive the Holy Spirit?
Galatians 3:2
I would like to learn just one thing from you:
Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law,
or by believing what you heard?
--->How did we receive they Holy Spirit?
Eph 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation.
Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
--->Isn't receiving the Holy Spirit a future event after believing?
Acts 8"13-15
Even Simon himself believed; and after being baptized, he continued on with Philip,
and as he observed signs and great miracles taking place, he was constantly amazed.
Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God,
they sent them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them
that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
--->Another example of post-believing receiving?
I could go on, Manna.
When did the Apostles receive the Holy Spirit, before or after they believed?
After.
Here is the biblical pattern of regeneration:
Repent
Believe
Receive (forgiveness)
Receive (Holy Spirit)
Your turn. Convince me these verses to not prove post-believing regeneration.
I think their is confusion on God opening someone's heart and regeneration.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 2:28:35 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
What's the alternative, dear - God sends some infants to hell and elects others?
Yes.... Only man draws such distinctions within mankind...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 2:34:06 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
It only makes sense if man is a free agent with his own will. Not making God
a handwringe not in control or bystander hoping for goodness - no - God knows
it all - every choice and every possible result of every choice.
The bible doesn't speak of...
every choice and every possible result of every choice.
It speaks of God's will, doing as He pleases, None staying His hand,His council standing forever... He declaring it and it coming to pass.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 2:42:37 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
When did the Apostles receive the Holy Spirit, before or after they believed?
After.
So they had eternal life without the Holy Spirit? They had passed death unto life all without the Holy Spirit.. That means they did so solely on the merit of their belief, and not the power of God.. Oops...
quote:
I think their is confusion on God opening someone's heart and regeneration.
You are the one confused... The heart of stone cannot repent and believe... Believing would be walking in His statues...
Ezekiel 36:26-27
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 3:22:27 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
every choice and every possible result of every choice.
It speaks of God's will, doing as He pleases, None staying His hand,
His council standing forever....
His foreknowledge is of everything that comes to pass....or could come to pass.
Determinism cannot understand this view, but that doesn't make it wrong.
quote:
He declaring it and it coming to pass
Decretive will.
What about prescriptive will? How can God desire something?
What about permissive will? How can evil occur if he doesn't allow it?
Sovereignty is a tapestry, not a single thread to which all one's theology clings.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 3:30:05 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
When did the Apostles receive the Holy Spirit, before or after they believed?
After.
So they had eternal life without the Holy Spirit? They had passed death unto life all without the Holy Spirit.. That means they did so solely on the merit of their belief, and not the power of God.. Oops...
Take a look at the Scripture in John 20.
Did they receive it twice?
Only for the ability to forgive sins?
Or what? Answer it for yourself.
You couldn't possibly be confused, could you?
quote:
You are the one confused...
I already know that!
Make a case already! And not with the standard C prooftexts.
I already know them and they haven't convinced me yet.
quote:
The heart of stone cannot repent and believe...
Then why are the wicked called on to repent?
Why did God not bring the calamity he promised when the wicked repented?
quote:
Believing would be walking in His statues...
Not true.
Moral pagans can be walking in God's statute more than a Christian!
quote:
Ezekiel 36:26-27
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
1. The context is not salvation.
2. He is speaking about the restoration of a nation, not salvation.
3. He is speaking to his disobdient chosen people, not pagan unregenerates.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 4:44:04 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2334
Joined: 8/10/2005
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dear K-man and other friends on LS side ,
I am getting tired of LS/ FG debate, brothers. I believe all that can be said on the subject, has been already . I don’t reject the vital importance of obedience and if you think that I promote cheap believism, and Manna, by saying that Ch. Stanley been instrumental in his salvation and walk in the Lord actually means instrumental in teaching him easy believism and cheap grace, - our mutual misunderstanding is too deep to even try to reconcile.
If you also believe we can sin our salvation away, then we definitely are in opposing lines on this.
So I quit this topic ( should be difficult – I have quit it 10 times already ) and will concentrate on C/A.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 8:19:58 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
His foreknowledge is of everything that comes to pass....or could come to pass.
Where does it say what might come to pass? Where is the verse that says things to come are random events?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 8:26:38 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
You couldn't possibly be confused, could you?
Nope... Given you forget things it safe to assume you are the confused one...
quote:
I already know them and they haven't convinced me yet.
You don't know them, you have an opinion of them....
quote:
Why did God not bring the calamity he promised when the wicked repented?
To punished one who has repented would be wrong....Right? And of course He knew they would...
quote:
Moral pagans can be walking in God's statute more than a Christian!
That which is done not in faith is a sin...
Moral pagans.... The lengths people will go...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 9:21:52 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
His foreknowledge is of everything that comes to pass....or could come to pass.
Where does it say what might come to pass?
Where is the verse that says things to come are random events?
8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent
and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another
time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted,
10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will
reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.
This verse cries out against rigid determinism.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 9:27:35 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Nope... Given you forget things it safe to assume you are the confused one...
You don't know them, you have an opinion of them....
Why do you denigrate me?
Why do you hold yourself as the owner of the Truth?
Why haven't you replied about when we receive the Holy Spirit?
quote:
RWE: Moral pagans can be walking in God's statute more than a Christian!
Moral pagans.... The lengths people will go...
Its a fact. Read Romans 1. There are moral pagans.
Some of them make Christians look bad.
You know its true.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 10:26:07 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
His foreknowledge is of everything that comes to pass....or could come to pass.
Where does it say what might come to pass?
Where is the verse that says things to come are random events?
8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent
and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another
time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted,
10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will
reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.
This verse cries out against rigid determinism.
No it doesn't... To punished one who has repented would be wrong....
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 10:44:52 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Why do you denigrate me?
You said you forget things...
quote:
Its a fact. Read Romans 1. There are moral pagans.
Some of them make Christians look bad.
You know its true.
I know that whatever not done in faith is a sin... I know the tender mercies of the wicked are evil, the sacrifice is a abomination, and even their "honest' work is sinful according to God's word....
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/6/2008 5:17:48 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1902
Joined: 2/26/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
dear K-man and other friends on LS side ,
I am getting tired of LS/ FG debate, brothers. I believe all that can be said on the subject, has been already . I don’t reject the vital importance of obedience and if you think that I promote cheap believism, and Manna, by saying that Ch. Stanley been instrumental in his salvation and walk in the Lord actually means instrumental in teaching him easy believism and cheap grace, - our mutual misunderstanding is too deep to even try to reconcile.
If you also believe we can sin our salvation away, then we definitely are in opposing lines on this.
So I quit this topic ( should be difficult – I have quit it 10 times already ) and will concentrate on C/A.
Nobody is saying that one can sin their salvation away. Nobody is saying that one has to be perfect either.
Odel, you're creating a controversy where there is none.
I've heard Stanley say some Biblical things, but other than that, I have little respect for him.
It's his eternal security position I have a problem with. God can use anyone to encourage the believers, and perhaps this is the case in Manna's life. God could probably use John Hagee and Creflo Dollar in a believers life. Probably more to show an example of a heretic, but that's beside the point.
Your bowing out so quickly this time, shows that you're not interested in debate, but you've made statements without backing them up, like you apparently like to do. That bothers me.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/6/2008 7:17:02 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
His foreknowledge is of everything that comes to pass....or could come to pass.
Where does it say what might come to pass?
Where is the verse that says things to come are random events?
8 and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent
and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. 9 And if at another
time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted,
10 and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will
reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.
This verse cries out against rigid determinism.
No it doesn't... To punished one who has repented would be wrong....
What does this have to do with sovereignty and determinism?
You completely missed my point.
I am not speaking of God's righteousness.
This verse is clearly telling us God can act based on man's response.
God has set the conditions, man must respond (or not).
The simple word "if" cannot mean anything if determinism is
true and free will is false.
I'm not saying this is the only way God works, but it is one way.
And "if" a man repents - means absolutely nothing if determinism is true.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/6/2008 7:40:23 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
I know that whatever not done in faith is a sin...
I know the tender mercies of the wicked are evil,
the sacrifice is a abomination, and even their "honest' work
is sinful according to God's word....
Wicked men can do good and moral things.
Whether it is credited to them as righteousness is another matter.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Why do you denigrate me with comments like
Nope... Given you forget things it safe to assume you are the confused one...
Observation? Not conducive to civil debate.
If you think you have every facet of the Truth nailed down
might I suggest you are not confused.......you are deceived.
We ALL see dimly. Even Peter said Paul wrote things hard to understand.
As for when the Apostles received the Holy Spirit, you said:
quote:
So they had eternal life without the Holy Spirit?
They had passed death unto life all without the Holy Spirit..
That means they did so solely on the merit of their belief,
and not the power of God.. Oops...
So I take it you believe they received the Holy Spirit twice?
Is it like this:
1. Receive Holy Spirit
2. Repent
3. Believe
4. Receive Holy Spirit
??? I am so confuuuuuuused 
Would you please examine the verses I cited in post 3329 to Manna and
explain to me how we are regenerated before we are saved.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/6/2008 3:54:34 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2334
Joined: 8/10/2005
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Ok,Theos, if there is smth you think i need to back up i will return to LS/FG topic
ONLY WITH PRECONDITIONS:
You (Theos) do not pretend posts that are addressed to you don’t exist! You only answer those that you know how to answer. I m gettin the impression that whenever I corner you choose to ignore the q-n. Deal?
Answer the questions and statements on the subject in the posts to you first :
3255
3260
Then post what you need backed up.
***
K-man gave a representation in this post of FG theology comparing it with Easy believism,Cheap grace, accusing it of teaching unrepented sin, etc. etc…
I will never ever agree that it is so.THerefore -we should agree to disagree on this, arguing is pointelss. If someone wants to critize easy believism etc – go ahead. ut that is not the same thing that Stanley teaches. Have you read any of Manna’s post on the subject?
quote:
his type of theology teaches people to not be overly concerned about the sin in their lives....after all, we can't sin our salvation away, can we?
This is a wise crack, sarcastic question that deserved the only answer – the one I gave.
It seem to suggest that if we teach that one cant sin salvation away that means we automatically teach not to be concerned about sin in our lives. If one thinks that we can sin Salv away - may i repeat, i disagree.
I dont like BS in any form gentlemen. If someone wants to debate honestly, i will gladly answer any question.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/6/2008 4:05:12 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2334
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Let's have a new EXODUS away from manchurch
and return to our roots of meeting in homes with
like-minded believers led by The Holy Ghost ! not exodus, stampede is ordered, damn it....
I sorely miss home church and will drop the one i attend in an instant for a small one. Not all big ones are bad - i grant the benefit of the doubt :) the ones I attend are though
KJ was joking, I am a harmless dove.:) I served as comp tech /clerk , office position Something that Air Force, etc. people( weren’t you in AF John SIH?) consider a cushy lame vacation not service, I guess
quote:
TheoJunkie, Pricelesspearl, and others just have/had a way with words that a wrench turning mechanic like myself just doesn't have... I don't really post much since the likes of yourself and others posting now are far better than myself at explaining stuff...
no, John.
While Priceless and TJ are excellent, you have your own unique way with words.All organs in the body .. an ear and an eye are equally important.. There are some things that nobody can explain quite as good as you. Even though you just like Pricey seem to be a weeee bit harsh at times. But who is perfect ?
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/6/2008 4:10:38 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1066
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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Want sin is it that we are sinning our salvation away? 
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/6/2008 8:28:31 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Want sin is it that we are sinning our salvation away?
Some say apostasy is possible by committing the unpardonable sin.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/7/2008 5:16:46 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3860
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman Perhaps you never gave it a thought because of
the translations you use. They use the word "faithfulness" as opposed to "faith"
found in the KJV, the literal Green and Young translations and some other translations.
The Greek word pistis is used in that verse.
There's a thread for KJVonly, bro. I also mentioned the literal Green and Young translations, among others as using the word "faith". So, I don't know what your point is about KJV only.
quote:
quote:
Who said spiritual gifts are given to the unregenerate?...not me.
Spiritual gifts, including saving faith, are the result of regeneration.
Your theology says we are saved before we have faith, so go figure. One can have as much faith as he can muster; but, unless the Holy Spirit applies the Word of God to his heart and forms salvific faith within it, he is not saved.
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If God doesn't give the sinner saving faith and it's not your
own innate faith, whose faith is it and from where did it come?
Its not based on selective redemption. God is pretty clear that "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you".
If God simply looked for and saved those who came to Him of their innate free will, then He could not speak of them as being chosen. It would be incorrect because God would not have done the choosing; it would be man's choosing.
Man would elect or choose to come to God, and God would simply recognize those who are saved. God could speak of them as only recipients of His grace and not of electing those who are saved. So, you see there is no way that what God presents as election is not precisely what He says it is - that He in His sovereignty chooses those whom He will save.
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There's another answer to why some believe and other's don't.
Try Rom 2:5, 8 on for size. Those verses don't explain why some individual believe and others don't. They simply describe the heart of unbelievers, they have hardened and impenitent hearts. The question is why do they have hardened and impenitent hearts?
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Why did Adam sin? Who can ever fully explain why Adam and some angels rebelled. One thing we know is Adam had a perfectly free will...not much of a leap to understand that would probably be #1 on the list of why he sinned.
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Why did men begin calling on the name of the Lord in Gen 4:26?
I don't know - the Bible doesn't say they were specially chosen or regenerated first. Seth was the progenitor of the godly line of mankind that was saved in the flood....I'd say God's choice of him was very specific. It was not until Seth's descendents, and as they multiplied, that men began to call on the name of the Lord, perhaps in a more formal or religious settings....obviously, Seth taught his children well.
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Flooded the earth to get rid of the vermin? Why - so Noah would feel special?
No, because he was sorry he had ever created man! That is a PROFOUND
lethal wound to the rotten plank in C's party platform called "Determinism". No, actually the only thing lethal is your failure to understand that it is not possible for God to change His mind. To insist that God changes His mind is to insist God is lacking in perfect knowledge. Whether you realize it or not your position is that God's state of mind before the so-called "change" would have been deficient, ignorant and imperfect. That position assails God's perfection - is that really where you want to go?
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It only makes sense if man is a free agent with his own will. Not making God
a handwringe not in control or bystander hoping for goodness - no - God knows
it all - every choice and every possible result of every choice.
Apparently, God doesn't "know". If He did, He wouldn't have wasted so much time "changing His mind" as per your view.
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Of course, man is able to repent; and, he will do so once God grants him this gift.
Then please explain Ex 32:14; Jer 18:7-10; Amos 7:1-6 and Jonah 3:9?
Repentance is a condition, not an entitlement nor a gift to the chosen ones. Condition?...possibly. Entitlement?...never. Gift?....God says it is.
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Please give me your take on Rev. 2:21. My "take" is your flawed view of God's perfect knowledge. Since God does indeed have perfect knowledge, He knew Jezebel would never repent....so why give her time to do what He knew she would never do?
Rev 2:21 uses similar language as Rev 9:20-21 where those also would not repent. Why is it so difficult to reconcile this language with God's perfect knowledge? God gives us all time to repent and many of us actually do repent of some of our sins. We actually do cry out to God for mercy and try to live more obediently to His Word. Jezebel did none of these things. She wanted nothing to do with the truth. She perferred her idolatry.
Don't get me wrong none of this "repenting" we do is a basis for salvation. Man has a conscience and some of God's laws are written on our hearts, therefore, many do give up evil practices. Sometimes, though, they do so to evade the consequences of the law.
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Why is it that when God says He is the giver of all good things
so many don't actually believe it and desire to exclude saving faith? I believe faith is a gift, too. How so? A gift man gives to himself?
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I agree, they're not the same thing at all.
Many of your compatriots will disagree with you on this.
Oh, I don't think that's what was meant. While both repentance and faith are necessary, they are not the same thing. As you said, it is a two-sided coin. Clearly, we cannot have one without the other - and both are the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvi | | | |
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