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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/4/2008 10:56:45 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1594
Joined: 12/2/2006
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rwe2156,
quote:
Whoa! hopefully (?) much earlier - I'll be 112! BTW, I DO plan on a plain pine box.
LOL.....we think alike on that. If there was any cheaper wood I would use it. Maybe I could get someone to nail together some old shipping pallets?
Here are a few quotes taken from Wikipedia on repentance and I fully understand that Wikipedia is not the ultimate source for all truth when I provide the site.
It does give some concepts to think about though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repentance
The nature of repentance
{ There is a three-fold idea involved in true repentance. The Protestant reformer John Calvin said that repentance "may be justly defined to be “a true conversion of our life to God, proceeding from a serious fear of God, and consisting in the mortification of the flesh and of the old man, and in the vivification of the Spirit.” He further said that "it will be useful to amplify and explain the definition we have given; in which there are three points to be particularly considered."
"In the first place, when we call repentance “a conversion of the life to God, we require a transformation, not only in the external actions, but in the soul itself; which, after having put off the old nature, should produce the fruits of actions corresponding to its renovation. . . .In the second place, we represented repentance as proceeding from a serious fear of God. For before the mind of a sinner can be inclined to repentance, it must be excited by the knowledge of the Divine judgment. . . .
"It remains for us, in the third place, to explain our position, that repentance consists of two parts—the mortification of the flesh and the vivification of the spirit. . . . Both these branches of repentance effects our participation of Christ. For if we truly partake of his death, our old man is crucified by its power, and the body of sin expires, so that the corruption of our former nature loses all its vigor. . . .If we are partakers of his resurrection, we are raised by it to a newness of life, which corresponds with the righteousness of God." [Quotes from A Compend of the Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin edited by Hugh T. Kerr, The Westminster Press-Philadelphia 1939.] }
How repentance is produced
Repentance is a divine gift
{ According to Christians, acts of repentance do not earn God's forgiveness from one's sin; rather, forgiveness is given as a gift from God to those who he saves. Acts 11:18--"Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." 2 Tim. 2:25 -- "If God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth." Acts 5:30, 31.
In this view, people are called upon to repent in order that we may feel our own inability to do so, and consequently be thrown upon God and petition Him to perform this work of grace in our hearts. Many church fathers have made reference to it as the "gift of repentance" or as the "gift of tears".
God calls all to repent through the hearing of the Gospel. God grants total repentance as each individual responds to repentance through faith in the expiating sacrifice of Jesus for all sin. "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." (Romans 10:17).
Repentance is given before anything else by definition. One cannot show true change in his life before he himself has changed [repented] to bring about manifestations of that change/repentance. }
Yet it is produced through the use of means
{ Acts 2:37, 38, 41. The very Gospel which calls for repentance produces it. When the people of Nineveh (Jonah 3:5-10) heard the preaching of the word of God by Jonah they believed the message and turned unto God. Not any message, but the Gospel is the instrument that God uses to bring about this desired end. Furthermore, this message must be preached in the power of the Holy Spirit (1 Thess. 1:5-10).
Rev. 3:19; Heb. 12:6, 10-11. The chastisements of God are sometimes for the purpose of bringing His wandering children back to repentance.
2 Tim. 2:24-25. God often uses the loving, Christian reproof of a brother to be the means of bringing us back to God. }
I think it is safe to say that a Reformed/Calvinistic approach or POV on repentance does not exclude the will of man as being involved in repentance.
The Reformed/Calvinistic POV is always that God and His work is the cause of this repentance.
The same Gospel message can be used to both cause repentance and cause to stumble.
The Gospel always works for its intended and effectual purpose and never comes back void of its intended work.
I guess the example that could be given is if you were to preach the Gospel message in a giant supermarket. Some people may be affected (convicted by the power of God) in a way that produces repentance, while others may be hardened and never accept what is clearly presented to them.
I suppose the real and basic issue at hand is whether it is too preposterous or for us Reformed/Calvinists to attribute the change in our hearts to God alone?
If we are in genuine error in the way we attribute the change in our hearts to God and God alone, isnt that an error on the side of caution?
I mean we see it as; us bad----GOD GOOD......so it would certainly do no injury in thanks even if we are wrong and God corrects us later.
What would He say if we gave Him full credit for our heart change and we were wrong?
Take care,
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/4/2008 4:25:11 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2334
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Greetings in Christ Jesus my dear sister !
Many these days appear to wear the God-police badge.
Manna's sin pile keeps me occupied and humbled-
The Lord knows those souls that are His.
None are qualified to see or judge a man's heart.
So well said, Manna. (Unless one is a surgeon doing a by-pass) nobody can neither see no judge a heart !! Yet many try. I cant even judge my own often.We are very capable of self deception thinking our motives are right, when in fact they are less then pure.
quote:
If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up.
Woody Allen
wow.Appreciate the quote!! for a whiny Jew from Brooklyn he evidently has an amazing grip on reality and values professed vs. practiced by us chistians!
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/4/2008 4:42:56 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2334
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
If you have 30 minutes here and 30 minutes there, you should listen to the broadcasts linked below. Start with "All Christians Believe in Predestination Part I" from 10/2 listed in the Audio Archives and follow up with "All Christians Believe in Predestination Part II" from 10/3 just above the Part I.
I won't list the teacher's name because I know that some of you might immediately dismiss the idea of listening. It's well worth your time, though.
Sure i definitely will, Sproul is good.Thanks for the baptism explanation. I am honestly a bit behind at what is considered right in modern churches re: baptism. Dont mind me, i dont know much about the business , i stepped into a church for the first time 5 years ago, and that is home based church, not a regular shop, so what do i know.
What threw me off was the fact that the church you mention calls dedication a baptism( i see those terms as different).
As for infant vs. professing believer's baptism I look at it realistically and dont mind either view. As we just mentioned with Manna, nobody knows other's heart.All water baptisms are a gamble, a shot in the dark. Pastor that baptise a baby does it as c-shot, gamble, hoping and believeing he is saved, and when he baptises an adult the chances are just the same.The fact that person professed something means nothing yet..
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/4/2008 4:56:32 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2334
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
I also agree with your mindset as November probably being the end of the world.....
Then we have to speed up the debate, gang. We, lazy bums, got a bit over a month ro settle the dispute ab. C/A!
Good luck in all your work, and jump in whenever time allows, KJ, yes, we are in total agreement re: original sin staining our nature. We are born sick. I appreciate and love Rwe but dont agree with position that babies are being born saved.
I still got boots and such but dont worry, we here can rip your apart with bare hands if needed. And being in service was nothing in comparison to being a school teacher, like Shema - that i definitely wouldnt have bravery to be! So the Rule Number 1 of C/A Thread safety: Dont make us, (esp girls) mad! 
glad to see you posting even if you have limited time, KJ.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 12:46:51 AM
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balbas
Posts: 133
Joined: 8/3/2008
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KJB
quote:
I have not had much time to post.......been a little busy.
I can relate. 
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 4:12:02 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3860
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
"Faithfulness" refers to ongoing faith, persevering faith -
continual trust in God - I never even gave a thought of saving faith
when I read this passage until you mention it. Perhaps you never gave it a thought because of the translations you use. They use the word "faithfulness" as opposed to "faith" found in the KJV, the literal Green and Young translations and some other translations. The Greek word pistis is used in that verse.
quote:
My presupp is we repent/believe and receive the Spirit, not the reverse,
so spiritual gifts cannot be given to the unregenerate. Who said spiritual gifts are given to the unregenerate?...not me. Spiritual gifts, including saving faith, are the result of regeneration. They are the gifts of God made operational in our lives by the work of the Holy Spirit. Chief among these gifts is saving faith.
Odd, that it's okay for the Holy Spirit to give you an "ongoing faith" but not saving faith. No, this verse proves that faith is a gift from God given by Him after He regenerates the sinner. Clear evidence that faith does not come from some innate human quality of goodness.
quote:
quote:
Saving faith is not innate in man nor do all men have it.
I never said it was. If God doesn't give the sinner saving faith and it's not your own innate faith, whose faith is it and from where did it come?
quote:
All I have ever said is man is able to repent. Of course, man is able to repent; and, he will do so once God grants him this gift. Why is it that when God says He is the giver of all good things so many don't actually believe it and desire to exclude saving faith?
quote:
I don't believe repent = believe, either. I agree, they're not the same thing at all. Repentence is a turning to God and a turning from sin and without both of these no one should presume that God has saved them.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 4:25:42 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3860
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quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
rwe , Gal 5:22 is not refering to spiritual gifts .
I realize that. Then I would suggest you "realize" incorrectly. There is absolutely no reason to exclude faith in Christ in Gal 5:22 other than because of one's own theological presuppositions.
The only reason to include faith in Christ in Gal 5:22 is precisely through one's own theological presuppositions : since the fruit of the Spirit consists of nine virtue's that should be evident in the life of believers over time that already have faith in Christ .
I don't totally disagree with that, although, I would phrase it differently. When one is regenerated they will definitely exhibit faith in Christ and the other fruit of the Spirit.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 5:01:48 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3860
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Good points, Manna. Now I see why you disagree with Lordship Salvationists : ) It is a wrong position and very dangerous, because it’s hypocrisy. LS movement people would readily dismiss K David and Solomon salvation as nonexistent if they lived in their time :) "Look - they commit adultery and murder and worship other gods! David and Sol still sin, while saying they believe God, those liars, they cant be saved !"
Yes I fully agree with you – we all , including Paul do what we don’t want to, but all of us have sin we haven’t overcome yet. This also is a very dangerous position to be in - ignoring ongoing sin in our lives which is what certain theologies allow. If we are living in particular ongoing sins we should be crying out to God for mercy and not presume we are saved.
quote:
And if the couple in question were to die in a car crash tomorrow before turning away from their " continual, unrepentant sin" would they still be saved? If Kind solomon would have died before (supposedly, but lets say he did ) would he still be saved? If David , etc.? Why would they consider themselves "saved"? If Solomon had not repented, as seen in Ecc, no he would not be saved nor would David.
It appears repentence is taken very lightly when it abosolutely should not be, after all this is a command of Christ. He tells us in Mark 1:5 "And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." And in Acts 8:22 Peter says "Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee."
To repent means:
1. to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
2. to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins
Why is it that we like to think we can skip the "heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins" definition and still be saved?
quote:
I think the whole argument LS and FG shouldnt be even an issue, for LS basically addresses the importance of Preaching Obedience and FG addresses the importance of knowing that We Cant Sin our salvation Away. That is simplifying what FG theology teaches. True, salvation cannot be lost even if we commit a great sin. But, FG teaches that you may still consider yourself to be a saved individual even when there is no change in your life, iow, you continue in your sins.
It is not hard to understand why this has been labeled "easy believism"? This type of theology teaches people to not be overly concerned about the sin in their lives....after all, we can't sin our salvation away, can we? When all along the real issue should be, have we come to a saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in the first place? Scripture teaches that turning from sins is an evidence of salvation so why does the FG movement insist on teaching otherwise?
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 5:35:56 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3860
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
What I am saying is that when we present a shallow gospel, we don’t prevent the elect from getting saved; we make people think they’re saved who aren’t. That’s the issue. Do you see the distinction? That’s the issue. MacArthur hit the nail on the head - that is the issue. That is precisely the type of gospel many of these churches are presenting - a shallow gospel. Christ died because of man's sin and they teach it's really okay if we continue in sin?
quote:
Churches today are filled with people who hold to a faith that does not save. James referred to this as a "dead faith"-meaning a mere empty profession (James 2:17, 20, 26). Paul wrote to the people in the church at Corinth to test or examine themselves to see if they were truly in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5). He hit another homerun with this.
quote:
Now let me say something that might shake some of you up, but I'll try to qualify it. There is nothing in the actual blood that is efficacious for sin. Did you get that? The Bible does not teach that blood of Christ itself has any efficacy for taking away sin. Not at all. The actual blood of Christ isn't the issue.
Now the sum of what I've said to you is to say this, that the blood of Christ is a symbolic way of referring to His violent sacrificial death. The benefits of that death are conveyed in the Scripture in the words of drinking His blood, or having His blood sprinkled on you. And both of those are metaphors to speak of appropriation.
And there's no sense in getting teary-eyed and mystical about blood, and we sing hymns, "There's power in the blood," etc., and we don't want to get preoccupied with blood. He's really right-on with this also. While the Lord did shed blood because of the wounds, He never shed all or even most of His blood. After He was dead, they pierced Him with the sword blood came out "But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water." The "blood" is symbolic. What paid for sin is that Christ gave His life.
We are told in Deut 12:23 "Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh". So when the Bible speaks of Christ's blood, it is a metaphor for His giving His life.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 5:40:33 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1902
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Good points, Manna. Now I see why you disagree with Lordship Salvationists : ) It is a wrong position and very dangerous, because it’s hypocrisy. LS movement people would readily dismiss K David and Solomon salvation as nonexistent if they lived in their time :) "Look - they commit adultery and murder and worship other gods! David and Sol still sin, while saying they believe God, those liars, they cant be saved !"
Yes I fully agree with you – we all , including Paul do what we don’t want to, but all of us have sin we haven’t overcome yet. This also is a very dangerous position to be in - ignoring ongoing sin in our lives which is what certain theologies allow. If we are living in particular ongoing sins we should be crying out to God for mercy and not presume we are saved.
quote:
And if the couple in question were to die in a car crash tomorrow before turning away from their " continual, unrepentant sin" would they still be saved? If Kind solomon would have died before (supposedly, but lets say he did ) would he still be saved? If David , etc.? Why would they consider themselves "saved"? If Solomon had not repented, as seen in Ecc, no he would not be saved nor would David.
It appears repentence is taken very lightly when it abosolutely should not be, after all this is a command of Christ. He tells us in Mark 1:5 "And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel." And in Acts 8:22 Peter says "Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee."
To repent means:
1. to change one's mind, i.e. to repent
2. to change one's mind for better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins
Why is it that we like to think we can skip the "heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins" definition and still be saved?
quote:
I think the whole argument LS and FG shouldnt be even an issue, for LS basically addresses the importance of Preaching Obedience and FG addresses the importance of knowing that We Cant Sin our salvation Away. That is simplifying what FG theology teaches. True, salvation cannot be lost even if we commit a great sin. But, FG teaches that you may still consider yourself to be a saved individual even when there is no change in your life, iow, you continue in your sins.
It is not hard to understand why this has been labeled "easy believism"? This type of theology teaches people to not be overly concerned about the sin in their lives....after all, we can't sin our salvation away, can we? When all along the real issue should be, have we come to a saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ in the first place? Scripture teaches that turning from sins is an evidence of salvation so why does the FG movement insist on teaching otherwise?
Amen, Kelman.
This is the point I've been trying to get across for many pages now.
But certain people refuse to accept terms like "easy believism," "cheap grace," "true believers," etc.
Thank you for such an explanatory post.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 6:54:40 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Manna -
All those verses say "lead you to repent".
Meaning god draws, but man must respond.
Of course rwe-
Lead to repent.......Draw to Himself
God must change the heart of stone to flesh !
This is a doctrinal presupp, not what the verses say.
To me there is an implicaiton of ability in the verses, not enabling.
quote:
You don't believe man does that, do you ?
I believe man responds! Which logically means he does something.
1. I don't believe man is 100% depraved.
2. I don't believe regeneration is the initial act in salvation.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 7:16:00 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Is that even Biblical ?.......why does a sinner suddenly wake up,
turn, and change on his own ?
I'm just telling you what Sproul said.
quote:
You like the phrase, "came to his senses" for some reason.
It does not pertain to UNbelievers !
Although I have backed away from the Prodigal Son example (he knew his Father)
there are numerous conditional verses concerning "turning" or repenting.
To me this clearly implies ability. If we are told to meet a condition, we must be able.
I've given Ex 32:14; Jer 18:7-10; 26:3, 13, 16; Amos 7:1-6, etc.
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ONLY believers have sense or can make sense of things because they
have the mind of Christ ! Can a carnal mind make any sense ? No !
Repenting has nothing to do with understanding the gospel, Manna.
Sproul says it begins with recognizing our sin. You don't believe carnal man
can do this, but the real life fact is, he can and does.
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RWE: Believing is multi-dimensional.
MANNA: For instance...? Who exemplifies this model ?
I am saying there are different kinds of "knowing".
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Where does the trust in God come from ? God is the sinner's enemy !
Faith is impossible without some kind of enabling or opening of the heart by God.
Yep...that's cool !
Glad we agree!
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A decision to change how a man views sin ?
Sin is suddenly distasteful and repulsive ?
Where did the change of mind come from and what caused it ?
The desire to change comes from our will. I can be brought about by
people, circumstances, prayer, or yes, even God through choice.
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But see, Reformed theology considers repentance and faith the same thing,
and are fruit of spiritual regeneration, rather than initial acts of response
to the draw of God on all men.
Nobody has yet to show me how we can be saved before we believe, Manna.
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IOW, you appear to read numerous wannabe theologians-
You mean like Piper, Sproul, Grudem, Berkhoff, Bruce Ware and F.F. Bruce?
I suggest WE are the "wannabes", Manna!
Or was Calvin the only one inspired?
quote:
Trust The Holy Spirit to teach you...it's a promise from God !
I heard a theologian once say, "Marooned man on an island with his Bible
for 20 years - his theology would probably be so far off mainstream
Christianity he would be labled a heretic or cultist.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 7:24:23 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
yes, we are in total agreement re: original sin staining our nature. We are born sick.
I appreciate and love Rwe but dont agree with position that babies are being born saved.
I agree OS stains our nature - but this does not condemns - only our deeds.
So babies born already saved? - Never even thought of that, just born innocent.
What's the alternative, dear - God sends some infants to hell and elects others?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 7:53:59 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman Perhaps you never gave it a thought because of
the translations you use. They use the word "faithfulness" as opposed to "faith"
found in the KJV, the literal Green and Young translations and some other translations.
The Greek word pistis is used in that verse.
There's a thread for KJVonly, bro.
I use the NASB for study +/- KJV and NIV.
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Who said spiritual gifts are given to the unregenerate?...not me.
Spiritual gifts, including saving faith, are the result of regeneration.
Your theology says we are saved before we have faith, so go figure.
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If God doesn't give the sinner saving faith and it's not your
own innate faith, whose faith is it and from where did it come?
Its not based on selective redemption.
There's another answer to why some believe and other's don't.
Try Rom 2:5, 8 on for size.
Why did Adam sin? Why did men begin calling on the name of the Lord in Gen 4:26?
I don't know - the Bible doesn't say they were specially chosen or regenerated first.
Some do, some don't. God was disgusted with men - why if they weren't chosen?
Flooded the earth to get rid of the vermin? Why - so Noah would feel special?
No, because he was sorry he had ever created man! That is a PROFOUND
lethal wound to the rotten plank in C's party platform called "Determinism".
Think Noah was feeling special when his sons found him...........compromised?
God made him do it just to tell a cool story? NOT.
It only makes sense if man is a free agent with his own will. Not making God
a handwringe not in control or bystander hoping for goodness - no - God knows
it all - every choice and every possible result of every choice.
quote:
Of course, man is able to repent; and, he will do so once God grants him this gift.
Then please explain Ex 32:14; Jer 18:7-10; Amos 7:1-6 and Jonah 3:9?
Repentance is a condition, not an entitlement nor a gift to the chosen ones.
I've already been through why I believe this (command, desire, wait, rejoice).
Please give me your take on Rev. 2:21.
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Why is it that when God says He is the giver of all good things
so many don't actually believe it and desire to exclude saving faith?
I believe faith is a gift, too.
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I agree, they're not the same thing at all.
Many of your compatriots will disagree with you on this.
quote:
Repentence is a turning to God and a turning from sin
and without both of these no one should presume that God has saved them.
Agree!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 8:29:23 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
If we are living in particular ongoing sins we should be crying out to God for mercy
I would say forgiveness, but either way, a sure sign of a regenerate.
quote:
and not presume we are saved.
If we hate our sin, this is great assurance, not cause for doubt, KMan!
I believe doubts never sent anyone to hell, but deception does, but
we must be careful of overbalancing on the "make your calling sure" thing.
Jesus took the stripes for us. Self-flagellation is for those who "work it out" falsely.
I, I, I believe should really be I'm trusting the One who saved me
and constantly depreciating anything I have to give.
quote:
True, salvation cannot be lost even if we commit a great sin.
But, FG teaches that you may still consider yourself to be a saved individual
even when there is no change in your life, iow, you continue in your sins.
Why is true faith persevering odious to some?
Its like this: I had an encounter with a truck/lost my legs and my life has changed.
I had an encounter with God and ............. its optional? ......its all up to me?
I don't get that.
quote:
This type of theology teaches people to not be overly concerned about the
sin in their lives....after all, we can't sin our salvation away, can we?
Free and Odeliya will argue for............seems Odeliya is on her own now, though.
But she's a well equipped "Freedom Fighter" and can handle herself I am sure.
quote:
Scripture teaches that turning from sins is an evidence of salvation so
why does the FG movement insist on teaching otherwise?
Our relationship with sin changes. Such a foreign concept to some?
Because their gospel is man-centered and unbalanced towards freedom
not responsiblity? I don't know, but suspect it.
What do they think Rom 6:1 is saying? Paul was certainly concerned with
our new found "freedom".
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 10:42:39 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
What I am saying is that when we present a shallow gospel;
we make people think they’re saved who aren’t.
That’s the issue. Do you see the distinction? That’s the issue.
(edited for safe viewing: biased theological content removed LOL!)
The ugly truth is we have been exporting our shallow theology
through our missionares for many, many years.
Not limited to missionaries unfortunately rwe-
It is rampant in the good old USA as well.
What is the culprit ...?
Easy believism...rationalism...secular humanism
Feelgoodism...God is LOVE & loves everybody...
God must be fair...I have creature rights...
"If I were God I would do it this way" ninnies.
What's the remedy ...? CALVINISM !!!  
You know I had to do that dude !!!
Bad preaching, bad teaching, bad churches !
Christ is not being lifted up, praised, glorified.
The cross, The Holy Blood, The Covenant,
the promises, the atonement, God's goodness.
There is no "righteous" bullies in the pulpit.
Rather, ear-tickling, belly-scratching, sugary,
sloppy, sancitmonious fluff fed to the listener.
Preachers should be telling what God has done-
What He is doing...and what His future holds.
Let's hear more about Christ---less about man !
Let's have a new EXODUS away from manchurch
and return to our roots of meeting in homes with
like-minded believers led by The Holy Ghost !
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 10:58:26 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
True, salvation cannot be lost even if we commit a great sin.
But, FG teaches that you may still consider yourself to be a saved individual
even when there is no change in your life, iow, you continue in your sins.
Why is true faith persevering odious to some?
Our scholarly, effulgent, brilliant brother
is not saying what you think he is saying rwe.
Kelman says they "consider" themselves saved.
They believe that they have believed... 
The point is...they are NOT REALLY SAVED !
There is a very real danger in bad teaching.
Unless a man is born from above, born by
God, birthed by His will, and His spiritual
womb, we ain't saved. Jesus says that !
No one is forcing their way into Heaven.
Not by invitation, rather by RESERVATION !!!
Chosen by God..God knows who is His !
It is perilous and irresponsible to convince
someone that they are falsely saved.
We know when we are saved.
We know in Whom we have believed.
True faith is knowing Jesus Christ.
True faith isn't odious, just rare.
This precious gift will keep us to the end.
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 11:15:58 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
This type of theology teaches people to not be overly concerned about the
sin in their lives....after all, we can't sin our salvation away, can we?
Free and Odeliya will argue for............seems Odeliya is on her own now, though.
But she's a well equipped "Freedom Fighter" and can handle herself I am sure.
No one says go sin like the devil...let's be clear-
Our lovely sister is not being cantankerous...
She is simply stating Biblical facts about security.
No one questions the "P" , now do they ?
Neither is she attributing that to those falsely saved.
Her point and mine to an extent is this - why the fuss ?
I am not infering anyone is a "PLANKEYE", but listen-
None of us knows the heart, the intentions, the motives,
any of the circumstances involved within a man.
I am not condoning sin, just saying ONLY God knows all.
God knows those who are His own. Why need I worry ?
Look, we are all spiritual children of The Most High God.
We know in an instant who our heavenly siblings are.
You could talk to someone for a moment and discern.
I am thankful for 1 John 1:9 because I am a sinner.
Romans 7 tells me I will sin, although I don't want to.
"Saved" sinners have remorse & guilt when they sin.
We freak out when we offend God & we despise our sin.
Someone who lives in sin as a permanent lifestyle-doesn't.
They keep sinning without any fear of God whatsoever.
They were NEVER, EVER saved in the first place.
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 11:22:38 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
Who said spiritual gifts are given to the unregenerate?...not me.
Spiritual gifts, including saving faith, are the result of regeneration.
Your theology says we are saved before we have faith, so go figure.
Is that what Kelman said ?
Or is that what you THINK he said ?
What do you believe his theology to be ?
Titus 3:5-7 (King James Version)
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
How do you view the text ?
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/5/2008 11:26:36 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
IOW, you appear to read numerous wannabe theologians-
You mean like Piper, Sproul, Grudem, Berkhoff, Bruce Ware and F.F. Bruce?
I suggest WE are the "wannabes", Manna!
Or was Calvin the only one inspired?
quote:
Trust The Holy Spirit to teach you...it's | | |
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