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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 7:41:36 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
I never said it was.
All I have ever said is man is able to repent.
I don't believe repent = believe, either.
They are two sides of the same coin, but not identical.
I am trying to stay away from this thing but I hav a nagging question I have to ask.
How does one repent without believing?
The Bible is clear that God causes repenting & believing.
HOW ?-By leading us to the point of repenting by His kindness.
Otherwise, man would/could never repent on his own.
Romans 2:4 (Amplified Bible)
4Or are you [so blind as to] trifle with and presume upon and despise and underestimate the wealth of His kindness and forbearance and long-suffering patience? Are you unmindful or actually ignorant [of the fact] that God's kindness is intended to lead you to repent ([a]to change your mind and inner man to accept God's will)?
Romans 2:4 (English Standard Version)
4Or do you presume on(A) the riches of his kindness and(B) forbearance and(C) patience,(D) not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?
Romans 2:4 (Darby Translation)
4or despisest thou the riches of his goodness, and forbearance, and long-suffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads thee to repentance?
Romans 2:4 (New American Standard Bible)
4Or do you think lightly of (A)the riches of His (B)kindness and (C)tolerance and (D)patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 7:55:24 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Unrepentant, ongoing, illicitness or immorality indicates fundamental problem,
possibly a deceived one who has "named it and claimed it".
Indeed...I actually convinced myself I was saved.
Here is the thought process I rationally developed.
Here's a false model of salvation, specifically man generated
1) God is love
2) God loves everybody
3) God must love me too
4) God's love for me will take me to Heaven.
No Jesus, no faith or belief, no repenting, no regeneration.
Nothing was given by God to the reprobate.
Nothing was done God-ward by the ungodly sinner.
The churches and the world are full of folks like this...
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 8:14:07 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Labels are dangerous anyway.
Besides that, nobody can put me in a box, so whatever all
LS entails, if it is sinless perfection, thats not me.
LS is MacArthurites, is it not rwe ?
They will have to educated us on Lordship.
All I know is www treasure hunting- 
Here is a little somethin' somethin' I found ...
Question to MacArthur
Ok, but I’m a little confused as far as the implications of that Lordship to the non-Christian at the point of salvation. How much of it can they really comprehend in terms of the Lordship issue? And then along with that, are you saying through your series on the Lordship that the call to salvation is synonymous with the call to discipleship?
Answer(s) by MacArthur
I am saying that explicitly, that a call to salvation is indeed a call to discipleship. I am saying that it is obvious that a person coming to faith in Jesus Christ will not fully understand the implications of his Lordship. They will not fully understand the reality of their sin, but there must be a call to that. In other words, when you call a sinner to repentance and you call a sinner to submit to Christ, they don’t fully understand the implications of that. But, they will understand as much as they can understand.
Now, let me say something that is very, very important for you to understand. I do not believe that an incomplete presentation of the gospel--in other words, if you just present the gospel that Jesus died for your sin and rose again and graciously offers you forgiveness by faith in his name; if that’s all you presented, and you didn’t talk about Lordship, and you didn’t talk about being a disciple, and you didn’t talk about repentance, and you didn’t talk about turning from sin-even an incomplete presentation of the gospel-now listen-could not prevent someone from being saved whom God was saving. Got that? Because if you didn’t talk about sin, they’d be feeling the conviction. And if you didn’t talk about submission, they’d be coming to that submission.
What I am saying is that when we present a shallow gospel, we don’t prevent the elect from getting saved; we make people think they’re saved who aren’t. That’s the issue. Do you see the distinction? That’s the issue.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 8:16:23 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
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More from MacArthur:
I believe that when you present the gospel-now listen carefully to this-you can make it as difficult as possible! That’s what Jesus did. He made it as difficult as possible. Why? Because salvation is a work of God, not based on the cleverness of the one giving the gospel, but based on the power of God. So, if a person is being saved by God, then you want them to fully understand their salvation. And if God isn’t doing it, you want to make sure that they’re not coming in on some illusion.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 9:21:25 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
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Another question to MacArthur:
What kind of things do and do not prove the genuineness of saving faith?
Answer
Churches today are filled with people who hold to a faith that does not save. James referred to this as a "dead faith"-meaning a mere empty profession (James 2:17, 20, 26). Paul wrote to the people in the church at Corinth to test or examine themselves to see if they were truly in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5).
Here is a list of seven conditions that do not prove or disprove the genuineness of saving faith. One can be a Christian and possess these things or one may not be a Christian at all and still possess them. While they don't prove or disprove one's faith, they're important to know and understand so you will not be deceived.
Seven conditions that do not prove or disprove genuine saving faith.
1. Visible Morality
Many who possess visible morality know nothing of sincere love for God. Whatever good works they appear to possess, they know nothing of serving the true God and living for His glory.
2. Intellectual Knowledge
People can possess an intellectual understanding and knowledge of the truth and yet not be saved. While the knowledge of the truth is necessary for salvation, and visible morality is a fruit of salvation, neither of these conditions by themselves translate into true saving faith.
3. Religious Involvement
They have an empty form of religion. Jesus illustrated this when He told of the virgins in Matthew 25. They waited and waited and waited for the coming of the bridegroom, who is Christ. And even though they waited a long time, when He came they didn't go in. They had everything together except the oil in their lamps. That which was most necessary was missing. The oil is probably emblematic of the new life; the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. They weren't regenerate. They had religious involvement but were not regenerate. A person can be visibly moral, know the truth, be religiously involved, and yet not possess genuine saving faith.
4. Active Ministry
It is possible to have an active and even a public ministry, and yet not possess genuine saving faith. Balaam was a prophet who turned out to be false (Deuteronomy 23:3-6). Saul of Tarsus (later becoming the apostle Paul) thought he was serving God by killing Christians. Judas was a public preacher and one of the twelve disciples of Christ-but he was an apostate.
5. Conviction of Sin
Some may confess their sins and even abandon the sins they feel guilty about. They say, "I don't like living this way. I want to change." They may amend their ways and yet fall short of genuine saving faith. That's external reformation, not internal regeneration. No degree of conviction of sin is conclusive evidence of saving faith. Even the demons are convicted of their sins-that's why they tremble-but they are not saved.
6. The Feeling of Assurance
Feeling like you are saved is no guarantee you are indeed saved. Someone may say, "Well, I must be a Christian because I feel that I am. I think I am one." But that is faulty reasoning. If thinking one is a Christian is what makes one a Christian, then no one could be deceived.
7. A Time of Decision
So often people say things like: "Well, I know I'm a Christian, because I remember when I signed the card," or "I remember when I prayed a prayer," or "I remember when I walked the aisle" or "went forward in church." A person may remember exactly when it happened and where they were when "it" happened, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Our salvation is not verified by a past moment. Many people have prayed prayers, gone forward in church services, signed cards, gone into prayer rooms, been baptized, and joined churches without ever experiencing genuine saving faith.
From: Bible Bulletin Board
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 9:41:30 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1782
Joined: 12/2/2006
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I have not had much time to post.......been a little busy.
(Think of that as a blessing and tell me to get busy again) 
I read through some of the posts and just wanted to make a few comments;
Odeliya,
I agree with you that even saved Christians struggle with sin. I also agree with you on the church discipline points. I am pretty sure we both already agreed on the orginal sin nature of humans.
I also agree with your mindset as November probably being the end of the world.....
As for the box response......
quote:
thats what you think., in about , maximum, 60 years or so - watch them.
Paper or plastic box? Maybe a cheap urn? lol
I told my wife she could throw me out in a desert wash when I die for coyote food.
Every time she starts dragging me away I have to remind her as I yell;......"I aint dead yet"! 
TheosCentric,
I also agree with you on discipline.
That was an excellent point on grace.
Those with unchanged hearts always resist the Holy Spirit........naturally. It is just a natural thing for the natural human being to do. It is the sin nature at work.
The Bible tells us of God doing a work on the heart;
The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.
We are told about the general condition of the heart;
Egypt, Judah, Edom, Ammon, Moab and all who live in the desert in distant places. For all these nations are really uncircumcised, and even the whole house of Israel is uncircumcised in heart."
The Bible is clear that people have been commanded to circumcise their own hearts;
Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, circumcise your hearts, you men of Judah and people of Jerusalem, or my wrath will break out and burn like fire because of the evil you have done-- burn with no one to quench it.
I think it is safe to say that what is commanded cannot be carried out by men.......this change of heart.
"You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
I think the text that you posted is a fantastic look into the reality of the sinful and hopeless condition of mankind apart from first and foremost a work of God.
The natural man naturally resists the Holy Spirit........always. The new man (one with a changed heart) does not resist but is controlled by the Spirit if indeed the Spirit is in him.
Here is that really neat text you posted once more;
The point of irresistible grace is not that we can’t resist. We can and we do. The point is that when God chooses, he overcomes our resistance and restores a submissive spirit. He creates. He says, “Let there be light!” He heals. He leads. He restores. He comforts.
Therefore we never boast that we have returned from backsliding. We fall on our faces before the Lord and with trembling joy thank him for his irresistible grace.
I think this sums up the situation for inablity on the part of men of flesh and the ability and power of God working on dead men;
Colossians 2:11-17
In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ.
He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.
And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
I hope everybody enjoys the depth and truth found in that text.
We that were once so bound have been set free.
shemaromans,
You are not allowed to leave unless you overcome our resistance to keep you.....and you cannot do that as it is against OUR policy.
quote:
If you ever see me not being humble, please virtually kick me several times.
Now if said that I bet Odeliya would have taken up the offer and kicked the snot out of me already.
I never give such open invitation......LOL (Besides, she might have boots left over from national service)
(I am just kidding because I KNOW she is way too nice to do such a thing.)
To all of you........
Take care and God bless.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 11:14:09 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5939
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Truth is we can never know who are wheat and who are tares.
Fruit can be faked and fruit can be delayed.
You SHALL know them by their fruit... The bible doesn't cast the level of doubt you do...
If you truly don't know I guess you don't go to church since not knowing who is isn't you stand at the least a 50/50 chance of sitting under a false teacher... And I would suggest no more quoting so called theologians anymore since you can't know if they are wheat or tares...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 11:22:20 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
How does one repent without believing?
Repenting begins, as Sproul says, with a recognition of sin and the desire to turn from it.
It is fully realized when the actual "turning" or "coming to the senses" occurs.
Believing is multi-dimensional.
Part intellectual acknowledgment, for example of fact about Jesus.
Part inner, "heart-knowledge" or deep seated belief or trust, for example
the resurrection of Jesus.
Faith is impossible without some kind of enabling or opening of the heart by God.
But it all starts with repentance: a personal decision to turn from sin, as Grudem
describes it.
But see, Reformed theology considers repentance and faith the same thing,
and are fruit of spiritual regeneration, rather than initial acts of response
to the draw of God on all men.
quote:
I mean why would one repent of something they
don't believe is wrong in the first place?
You mean something YOU don't believe they think is wrong, don't you?
If man is 100% depraved and as a result completely spiritual dead
of course he won't recognize his sin.
Which is of course, simply not true. Any mentally competent pagan will
tell you murder is wrong, even if the law permitted it.
quote:
When I witness to people, I find that generally they believe they are
either to good to be saved or that they have sinned to much and can't be saved.
Aren't both of these unbelief?
Sure. But unbelief cannot be a sin if men are unable to believe.
One more that is nagging me.
Something Free said the other day about believing in Phi 1:29 being a request granted.
How do you ask for faith apart from faith?
I am thinking of the man who told Jesus "Lord, I believe. Help thou my unbelief".
You have to have some amount of faith to request more faith.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 11:31:01 PM
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ofHisownwillbegat
Posts: 2
Joined: 10/2/2008
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The Hornet Song
When the Canaanites hardened their hearts against God,
And grieved Him because of their sin,
God sent along hornets to bring them to terms,
And to help His own people to win.
If a nest of live hornets were brought to this room,
And the creatures allowed to go free,
You would not need urging to make yourself scarce,
You’d want to get out, don’t you see!
They would not lay hold and by force of their strength,
Throw you out of the window, oh, no!
They would not compel you to go against your will,
But they would just make you willing to go.
When Jonah was sent to the work of the Lord,
The outlook was not very bright.
He never had done such a hard thing before,
So he backed and ran off from the fight.
Now, the Lord sent a great fish to swallow him up,
The story I am sure you all know.
God did not compel him to go against his will,
But He just made him willing to go.
CHORUS:
God does not compel us to go, oh, no!
He never compels us to go.
God does not compel us to go against our will,
But He just makes us willing to go.
_____________________________
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect." - John Owen
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 11:33:20 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
Rwe:
Besides that, nobody can put me in a box
thats what you think.,
in about , maximum, 60 years or so - watch them.
Whoa! hopefully (?) much earlier - I'll be 112!
BTW, I DO plan on a plain pine box.
Think I'll tell them to throw all my theology books in with me.
By then there'll be nobody left who cares about doctrine anyway.
They all followed the Pied "Piper" and Al Mohler to Reform School!
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 11:36:05 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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Manna -
All those verses say "lead you to repent".
Meaning god draws, but man must respond.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 11:38:41 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Labels are dangerous anyway.
Besides that, nobody can put me in a box, so whatever all
LS entails, if it is sinless perfection, thats not me.
LS is MacArthurites, is it not rwe ?
They will have to educated us on Lordship.
All I know is www treasure hunting-
Here is a little somethin' somethin' I found ...
Question to MacArthur
Ok, but I’m a little confused as far as the implications of that Lordship to the non-Christian at the point of salvation. How much of it can they really comprehend in terms of the Lordship issue? And then along with that, are you saying through your series on the Lordship that the call to salvation is synonymous with the call to discipleship?
Answer(s) by MacArthur
I am saying that explicitly, that a call to salvation is indeed a call to discipleship. I am saying that it is obvious that a person coming to faith in Jesus Christ will not fully understand the implications of his Lordship. They will not fully understand the reality of their sin, but there must be a call to that. In other words, when you call a sinner to repentance and you call a sinner to submit to Christ, they don’t fully understand the implications of that. But, they will understand as much as they can understand.
Now, let me say something that is very, very important for you to understand. I do not believe that an incomplete presentation of the gospel--in other words, if you just present the gospel that Jesus died for your sin and rose again and graciously offers you forgiveness by faith in his name; if that’s all you presented, and you didn’t talk about Lordship, and you didn’t talk about being a disciple, and you didn’t talk about repentance, and you didn’t talk about turning from sin-even an incomplete presentation of the gospel-now listen-could not prevent someone from being saved whom God was saving. Got that? Because if you didn’t talk about sin, they’d be feeling the conviction. And if you didn’t talk about submission, they’d be coming to that submission.
What I am saying is that when we present a shallow gospel, we don’t prevent the elect from getting saved; we make people think they’re saved who aren’t. That’s the issue. Do you see the distinction? That’s the issue.
I don't think Paul Washer would disagree with this.
Neither do I.
Aren't we disciples of Christ if we are saved?
Funny, I thought that was a given.
Am I missing something? I thought we hated our mother, brother, sister, etc.?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 11:43:33 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Truth is we can never know who are wheat and who are tares.
Fruit can be faked and fruit can be delayed.
You SHALL know them by their fruit... The bible doesn't cast the level of doubt you do...
If you truly don't know I guess you don't go to church since not knowing who is isn't you stand at the least a 50/50 chance of sitting under a false teacher... And I would suggest no more quoting so called theologians anymore since you can't know if they are wheat or tares...
You have no insight or inspiration to know who is saved based on
whatever you are perceiving as "fruit" now, do you?
Of course not.
Discerning false teachers (who are held to a higher standard) has nothing
to do with deciding salvation status based on fruit.
Fruit CAN be faked - I've done it.
Many put on their happy faces on Sunday morning - live for the evil one the other 6 days.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 11:43:35 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5939
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Labels are dangerous anyway.
Besides that, nobody can put me in a box, so whatever all
LS entails, if it is sinless perfection, thats not me.
LS is MacArthurites, is it not rwe ?
They will have to educated us on Lordship.
All I know is www treasure hunting-
Here is a little somethin' somethin' I found ...
Question to MacArthur
Ok, but I’m a little confused as far as the implications of that Lordship to the non-Christian at the point of salvation. How much of it can they really comprehend in terms of the Lordship issue? And then along with that, are you saying through your series on the Lordship that the call to salvation is synonymous with the call to discipleship?
Answer(s) by MacArthur
I am saying that explicitly, that a call to salvation is indeed a call to discipleship. I am saying that it is obvious that a person coming to faith in Jesus Christ will not fully understand the implications of his Lordship. They will not fully understand the reality of their sin, but there must be a call to that. In other words, when you call a sinner to repentance and you call a sinner to submit to Christ, they don’t fully understand the implications of that. But, they will understand as much as they can understand.
Now, let me say something that is very, very important for you to understand. I do not believe that an incomplete presentation of the gospel--in other words, if you just present the gospel that Jesus died for your sin and rose again and graciously offers you forgiveness by faith in his name; if that’s all you presented, and you didn’t talk about Lordship, and you didn’t talk about being a disciple, and you didn’t talk about repentance, and you didn’t talk about turning from sin-even an incomplete presentation of the gospel-now listen-could not prevent someone from being saved whom God was saving. Got that? Because if you didn’t talk about sin, they’d be feeling the conviction. And if you didn’t talk about submission, they’d be coming to that submission.
What I am saying is that when we present a shallow gospel, we don’t prevent the elect from getting saved; we make people think they’re saved who aren’t. That’s the issue. Do you see the distinction? That’s the issue.
I don't think Paul Washer would disagree with this.
Neither do I.
Aren't we disciples of Christ if we are saved?
Funny, I thought that was a given.
Am I missing something? I thought we hated our mother, brother, sister, etc.?
Given? Didn't you just say...
Truth is we can never know who are wheat and who are tares.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 11:49:45 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5939
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Truth is we can never know who are wheat and who are tares.
Fruit can be faked and fruit can be delayed.
You SHALL know them by their fruit... The bible doesn't cast the level of doubt you do...
If you truly don't know I guess you don't go to church since not knowing who is isn't you stand at the least a 50/50 chance of sitting under a false teacher... And I would suggest no more quoting so called theologians anymore since you can't know if they are wheat or tares...
You have no insight or inspiration to know who is saved based on
whatever you are perceiving as "fruit" now, do you?
Of course not.
Discerning false teachers (who are held to a higher standard) has nothing
to do with deciding salvation status based on fruit.
Fruit CAN be faked - I've done it.
Many put on their happy faces on Sunday morning - live for the evil one the other 6 days.
If you say can't tell the wheat from the chaff it doesn't matter if they are in the pew on behind the pulpit... The higher standard they are held to doesn't grant you clairvoyance...
The verse is either a lie or the truth...
Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/3/2008 11:51:47 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2472
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
Given? Didn't you just say...
Truth is we can never know who are wheat and who are tares.
Who can say?
We hang with the apparent wheat, but fruit isn't apparent until the plant is mature.
Discipleship is a given to me - sorry about that.
Its personal and sometimes not obvious, until of course,
someone asks a deep theological questions, such as:
"Why would God hold a man responsible for something he cannot do?"
OR
"Why would God condemn a man for another man's sin?"
OR
"If I, being sinful, know I am specially chosen, how much more
elite or spiritually enlightened will my sinful mind allow me to be?"
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/4/2008 12:30:28 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1782
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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SovereignIsHe,
I always thought you were very good at explaining Reformed Theology so I hope you dont cut yourself short on that........just my own opinion anyways.
tdd1975,
quote:
How does one repent without believing?
I mean why would one repent of something they don't believe is wrong in the first place?
That is a profound point.
quote:
Something Free said the other day about believing in Phi 1:29 being a request granted.
How do you ask for faith apart from faith?
That adds to the first point you made and makes it quite clear.
How can they reconcile the points you made there? They cant.
When the word "granted" is used it is in reference to a sovereign act of God giving faith.......and it is not on behalf of the person asking for it. It is all for Christ's sake and it clearly says so.
It is the Father giving subjects to His Son which is building a kingdom.
For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake......
The text not only speaks of faith for His sake........but also of suffering for His sake.
Using a free-will POV are we to suppose that no person suffers for His sake unless they specifically asked or requested for suffering?
Here is the text;
For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake.......
Pretty obvious and I think you made it clear enough already.
Here we have a man claiming that the grace of God actually had an effect on him.......1 Cor 15;
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect.
If the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit, it is pretty obvious that something must happen to the natural man first.
The grace of God can be effectual and overcome resistance just like TheosCentric was explaining earlier.
Here are some verses that seem to convince me of His work in giving and granting;
Acts 15:8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.
Rom 2:29 No, a man is a Jew if he is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a man's praise is not from men, but from God.
Rom 5:5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
2 Cor 1:21-22 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Take care,
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/4/2008 3:29:43 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5939
Joined: 4/15/2005
From: Northern Califonria
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Who can say?
Apparently it's possible...
Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 12:10 A righteous man regardeth the life of his beast: but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/4/2008 8:17:07 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Manna -
All those verses say "lead you to repent".
Meaning god draws, but man must respond.
Of course rwe-
Lead to repent.......Draw to Himself
God must change the heart of stone to flesh !
You don't believe man does that, do you ?
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/4/2008 8:53:05 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Repenting begins, as Sproul says, with a recognition of sin and the desire to turn from it.
It is fully realized when the actual "turning" or "coming to the senses" occurs.
Is that even Biblical ?.......why does a sinner suddenly wake up, turn, and change on his own ? You like the phrase, "came to his senses" for some reason. It does not pertain to UNbelievers ! ONLY believers have sense or can make sense of things because they have the mind of Christ ! Can a carnal mind make any sense ? No !
quote:
Believing is multi-dimensional.
For instance...? Who exemplifies this model ?
quote:
Part intellectual acknowledgment, for example of fact about Jesus.
Why is historical Jesus important in salvation ?
quote:
Part inner, "heart-knowledge" or deep seated belief or trust, for example
the resurrection of Jesus.
Where does the trust in God come from ? God is the sinner's enemy !
quote:
Faith is impossible without some kind of enabling or opening of the heart by God.
Yep...that's cool !
quote:
But it all starts with repentance: a personal decision to turn from sin, as Grudem
describes it.
A decision to change how a man views sin ? Sin is suddenly distasteful and repulsive ? Where did the change of mind come from and what caused it ?
quote:
But see, Reformed theology considers repentance and faith the same thing,
and are fruit of spiritual regeneration, rather than initial acts of response
to the draw of God on all men.
Configurational cavalcade of cacophonous commentary consumption causes compunction, confusion, (in)coherence, with catalclysmic consequences compounded by corresponding collateral conclusions. CEASE !
IOW, you appear to read numerous wannabe theologians-
Trust The Holy Spirit to teach you...it's a promise from God !
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/4/2008 9:35:10 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2972
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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OK, I am poking around some of MacArthur's stuff...
His wording and communique could be confusing.
Apparently, (I don't know) MacArthur was "called out" by fellow preachers and also some of his congregation for allegedly minimizing The Holy Blood of Christ Jesus, instead making references to His death.
The next excerpt is from April 1976 and is from a message entitled "The outrage of idolatry." Here's what I said about the blood of Christ.
There is an English word that you ought to have in your vocabulary because you may find need to use it, or at least to understand it. It is the word metonym. You know what a synonym is? You know what an antonym is? You know what a homonym is? You say, "No." Well, those are all...those are all terms to describe various kinds of words, and so is the word metonym. A metonym is a different word that is used for something because it has an actual relationship. It is a different word used for something because it has an actual relationship.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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