The fall (Full Version)

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Consecrated2God -> The fall (8/11/2008 8:15:44 AM)

This is a spin-off of another thread.

I asserted that whatever is good in this world is good because God created it good, and what is bad in this world is bad because of the fall of man. I believe there are some things, such as disease, that are not listed in Genesis. Glaudys asked what the scritpure says concerning this, as he believes the only results of the curse are what is specifically listed in Genesis.

quote:

Gen 3:14-19 The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and above all beasts of the field; on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." To the woman he said, "I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you." And to Adam he said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you; in pain you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return."


Here is my reply.

Glaudys said:
quote:

But is that what scripture says? In particular, does scripture say that what is not good in our judgment is not good in God's judgment?


Now you are asking questions in an area that I am much more suited to answer.

Jesus died for our sin, and for all that sin brought into the world. In this passage in Isaiah we see the many things that were laid on His back at the cross--all the backlash of the fall of mankind. He bore it all. He has paid the payment for sin in full, and when He comes back He will restore all things.

Isa 53:3-10 He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

I've bolded all the things He suffered for on the cross--all the things that were the result of the fall of man--grief, sorrow, disease, and sin are all in there.



gluadys -> RE: The fall (8/11/2008 10:57:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Consecrated2God

This is a spin-off of another thread.

I asserted that whatever is good in this world is good because God created it good, and what is bad in this world is bad because of the fall of man. I believe there are some things, such as disease, that are not listed in Genesis. Glaudys asked what the scritpure says concerning this, as he believes the only results of the curse are what is specifically listed in Genesis.


Just a reminder that gluadys is "she" not "he"

quote:

Isa 53:3-10 He was despised and rejected by men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people? And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

I've bolded all the things He suffered for on the cross--all the things that were the result of the fall of man--grief, sorrow, disease, and sin are all in there.


First, I don't see disease listed in there at all. But we really shouldn't focus on disease specifically. The original statement I responded to was:


quote:

we don't know what kinds of changes happened to our world when man fell. When sin entered the world, so did death and disease. A change in genes may have been a part of it.


Well, death and disease are two of the things we do know entered the world with the fall. So are the items listed in Genesis. And so are grief and sorrow. Although I think we need to distinguish a bit between consequence and curse. Death is part of the curse of the fall. Sorrow is a consequence, but not specifically a curse.

What I object to is imagining all sorts of other changes never alluded to in scripture. I know of no scriptural reason why genes would change. Similarly, to take a few other things which I know you have not mentioned, but which I have heard from other creationist sources, there is no scriptural reason for the climate to change or the nature of the atmosphere, or the speed of light.

Scripture tells us what changed. Sin and death entered the world. Oppression, violence and deceit became part of human nature. The apocalyptic horsemen of war, famine and plague became familiar human experience. Pain, sorrow and grief are the inevitable consequences of these. This is what changed.

We have no scriptural warrant for imagining other changes. These are nothing but ad hoc assertions to avoid dealing with evidence.



drmark -> RE: The fall (8/11/2008 11:11:04 AM)

quote:

Scripture tells us what changed. Sin and death entered the world. Oppression, violence and deceit became part of human nature. The apocalyptic horsemen of war, famine and plague became familiar human experience. Pain, sorrow and grief are the inevitable consequences of these. This is what changed.
So how does the theistic evolutionist reconcile millions of years of death, violence, famine, and plague with her ad hoc assertion that God used evolution to create mankind?



Consecrated2God -> RE: The fall (8/11/2008 11:39:58 AM)

quote:

Just a reminder that gluadys is "she" not "he"


Oops--Sorry about that! [:)]

I had posted this in the other thread first before I decided to start a new thread on it, so it wouldn't be off topic. I had originally bolded certain parts, but my bolding didn't last when I copied and pasted it. "By His striped we are healed" I believe is a covers disease and sickness.

quote:

So how does the theistic evolutionist reconcile millions of years of death, violence, famine, and plague with her ad hoc assertion that God used evolution to create mankind?


I'd be interested in the response to this question as well.



scutus -> RE: The fall (8/12/2008 5:29:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: drmark

quote:

Scripture tells us what changed. Sin and death entered the world. Oppression, violence and deceit became part of human nature. The apocalyptic horsemen of war, famine and plague became familiar human experience. Pain, sorrow and grief are the inevitable consequences of these. This is what changed.
So how does the theistic evolutionist reconcile millions of years of death, violence, famine, and plague with her ad hoc assertion that God used evolution to create mankind?

Your God used the torture and death of his son to save humanity didn't He? Obviously he's not averse to death, violence and the OT shows that he can just as well use war, famine and plague to serve his purposes.



Consecrated2God -> RE: The fall (8/12/2008 7:49:00 AM)

Jesus died to save the world from sin, which includes the side effects of sin, such as war, famine, and plague. Before sin entered the world, creation was good--there was no sin, war, famine, or plague. So no, God did not use those things to create the world that He declared good.



wreid77 -> RE: The fall (8/12/2008 4:32:58 PM)

Also, many creationists explain the environmental changes that have occured as beginning with the great flood.

The assertion is that prior to the flood the Earth had never known rain. Rather, water came up from the ground. I've also seen a creationist who claimed that at one time the Earth was surrounded by a sphere of water (which he claimed created a higher preasure atmosphere leading to longer life) and it was that water which was used for the rain of the great flood. Obviously the change from no water vapor in the air, or a sphere of water protecting the environment would certainly produce vast changes both in climate and weather.

Disease, I just don't know but I do know that the same organisms could have existed prior to the fall and simply not have caused any ill effects, because prior to the fall our bodies did not deteriorate.



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