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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/15/2008 5:13:13 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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Guys- there's a reason I favor non-appeasement with Russia, now:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26203430/
It's time for us to at least be prepared for a war against Russia. Unlike various neoconservatives, I would dread an actual military confrontation, but the only thing worse than being dragged into a confrontation when we're prepared is being dragged into one when we're unprepared.
Part of the reason WWII dragged on for so long was that France and England weren't really expecting a war until 1938 or so. And part of the reason the Cold War was relatively peaceful was that both parties were just as ready to go to war- but only if attacked- as the other.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/15/2008 5:42:30 PM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 530
Joined: 1/18/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Guys- there's a reason I favor non-appeasement with Russia, now:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26203430/
It's time for us to at least be prepared for a war against Russia. Unlike various neoconservatives, I would dread an actual military confrontation, but the only thing worse than being dragged into a confrontation when we're prepared is being dragged into one when we're unprepared.
Part of the reason WWII dragged on for so long was that France and England weren't really expecting a war until 1938 or so. And part of the reason the Cold War was relatively peaceful was that both parties were just as ready to go to war- but only if attacked- as the other.
quote:
Russia's military doctrine sanctions the use of nuclear weapons "against the allies of countries having nuclear weapons if they in some way help them." ... that would include elements of strategic deterrence systems.
Old news. Pershing 2
We're simply going down the same path as 25 years ago, as are the Russians.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/16/2008 2:30:55 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7876
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
We're simply going down the same path as 25 years ago, as are the Russians.
Except this time I hope we don't give them Eastern Europe.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/16/2008 4:32:57 AM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 530
Joined: 1/18/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
We're simply going down the same path as 25 years ago, as are the Russians.
Except this time I hope we don't give them Eastern Europe.
I was stationed with VII Corps Stuttgart in 84-85, we are magnitudes weaker militarilly & politically today than we were then;
Especially in Europe.
Short of nuclear war, if Russia wanted all of Europe we have no real means to stop them.
Thankfully, they have no real need or desire to rule a bunch of xenophobic malcontents.
It always amazes me when people talk about Western appeasement and the U.S. being unprepared for a surprise attack in WWII as a reason to fence in the Russians.
These people must have slept thru history class - Operation Barbarossa
The Russians have a far greater (and legitimate) fear of appeasement & surprise attack from THEIR lessons of WWII.
In June of 1941, Germans forces staged a surprise attack out of Poland, Czechoslovakia and the Ukraine's neighbors Hungary & Romania.
German propaganda made claims that the Red Army was preparing to attack them, and their own invasion was thus presented as being pre-emptive. (sound familiar?)
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/16/2008 1:32:15 PM
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Butterflytearz
Posts: 142
Joined: 7/6/2006
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quote:
South Ossetia (Ossetic: Õóññàð Èðûñòîí, Khussar Iryston; Georgian: სამხრეთი ოსეთი, Samkhreti Oseti; Russian: Þæíàÿ Îñåòèÿ, Yuzhnaya Osetiya) is a region in the South Caucasus, formerly the South Ossetian Autonomous Oblast within the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic. A part of it has been de facto independent from Georgia since it declared independence as the Republic of South Ossetia early in the 1990s during the Georgian-Ossetian conflict. The capital of the region is Tskhinvali.
The de facto independent republic governed by the secessionist government held a second independence referendum on November 12, 2006, after its first referendum in 1992 was not recognized by the international community as valid. According to the Tskhinvali election authorities, the referendum turned out a majority for independence from Georgia where 99% of South Ossetian voters supported independence and the turnout for the vote was 95%.
If 99% of South Ossetian's want independance from Georgia then in a democracy they should get it. Now if they choose this road,, they also choose the consequences.
Let them go
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/16/2008 2:41:53 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1117
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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Funny how most here in America would say that the South had no right to leave the Union, and Lincoln was fully right to go to war to force them back. Yet, when South Ossetica wants to leave THEIR country, THEY have that right to do so. Hypocritical double standard anyone?
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/16/2008 3:47:06 PM
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terryjohn
Posts: 456
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: online
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What is it with men that they have to deny other men political representation? If one state wanted to seperate from the union why do the remaining ones believe they have the right to stop them? If that be right, then there really are some demons in democracy.
Is nationalism a sin?
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[Deleted] - 8/17/2008 10:26:37 AM
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Deleted User
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[Deleted by Admins]
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/17/2008 7:01:45 PM
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Suhar
Posts: 17
Joined: 7/15/2007
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Came across this old article.
Georgia started it:
http://www.janes.com/news/security/iwr/iwr080808_1_n.shtml
"Breakaway region" populated by ethnic Russians attacked by Georgians and echnicly cleansed by Georgians with backing, training and supplies from USofA. Hmmm...Them Russians sure are evil.... must be.
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http://shatun.blog.com/
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/17/2008 7:23:51 PM
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gmc4Jesus
Posts: 227
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Torrance, California
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IT is tragically sad what greed and the quest for power will do to a leader and a nation.
Whether Russia's attack is justified or not is yet to be fully seen. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, doesn't Georgia have some sovereign rights?
Some question Lincoln's going after the South during the Civil War. Did we have any legitimate right to fight to break away from England in the Revolutionary War?
From my understanding, Georgia is interested in democracy and some of the freedoms we are enjoying. Why does Russia feel that they have to control or prevent Georgia's actions?
God is ultimately in charge. I pray that He will work in the best interest of all in this situation between Georgia and Russia.
_____________________________
Let's talk about Jesus, His life and teachings at the www.gettingtoknowjesus.org Gospel Study Forum.
Home of "Getting To Know Jesus", a complete Bible study on the life and teachings of Jesus.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/17/2008 7:56:47 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1623
Joined: 5/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
Funny how most here in America would say that the South had no right to leave the Union, and Lincoln was fully right to go to war to force them back. Yet, when South Ossetica wants to leave THEIR country, THEY have that right to do so. Hypocritical double standard anyone?
South Ossetia wanted to leave Georgia, not Russia. Ossetians feel more kinship with Russia than with Georgia.
Besides, your analogy is flawed. The history of those peoples and nationalities in that area - Russians, Ossetians, Georgians, Abkhazians - is a lot more complex that what happened with the relatively very young United States during the American War of Secession.
EDIT: For South Ossetians, bitterness follows attacks
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/17/2008 8:08:07 PM
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Suhar
Posts: 17
Joined: 7/15/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmc4Jesus
IT is tragically sad what greed and the quest for power will do to a leader and a nation.
Whether Russia's attack is justified or not is yet to be fully seen. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, doesn't Georgia have some sovereign rights?
Some question Lincoln's going after the South during the Civil War. Did we have any legitimate right to fight to break away from England in the Revolutionary War?
From my understanding, Georgia is interested in democracy and some of the freedoms we are enjoying. Why does Russia feel that they have to control or prevent Georgia's actions?
God is ultimately in charge. I pray that He will work in the best interest of all in this situation between Georgia and Russia.
Because Georgians would come into ethnic Russian village in Osetia and tell people "this is our land now, you go to Russia", run all people out of the village and burn it down. I, think it is called "ethnic cleansing". Who, do you think, was supposed to help Osetins? The great USofA the force for democracy, peace, love everywhere on Earth? Oh, wait. US was already helping one side in that conflict.....
_____________________________
My collection of rants
http://shatun.blog.com/
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/17/2008 8:22:35 PM
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RichLP
Posts: 1623
Joined: 5/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Suhar
Because Georgians would come into ethnic Russian village in Osetia and tell people "this is our land now, you go to Russia", run all people out of the village and burn it down. I, think it is called "ethnic cleansing". Who, do you think, was supposed to help Osetins? The great USofA the force for democracy, peace, love everywhere on Earth? Oh, wait. US was already helping one side in that conflict.....
Suhar speaks the truth.
Georgian civilians who did not partake in the brutalities of Georgian soldiers are not guilty, but Mikheil Saakashvili's forces razed Ossetian villages and killed Ossetian civilians in the name of Georgian sovereignty.
Ossetians fleeing the conflict zone talk of Georgian atrocities and the indiscriminate killing of civilians.
Not that the Russian forces conducted themselves well during this short but bloody conflict... but let's not make Georgia's leadership the poor, weak, little victim some think it is. It is not.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/18/2008 2:17:07 AM
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Kapa_brn
Posts: 13
Joined: 8/11/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
I suspect this conflict is known by different names to the Russians and the Georgians.
"Operaion of enforcement to peace" is it's official name in Russia (sorry for poor English).
It would be great to know it's name in Georgian media.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/18/2008 7:32:59 AM
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Kapa_brn
Posts: 13
Joined: 8/11/2008
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"Operation of reconstruction of constitutional order" is Georgian version.
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/18/2008 10:16:08 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
Just having some fun with ya. 
Down here, some actually still refer to it as the War of Northern Aggression.
The names we give wars are sometimes known by different names depending on one's perspective.
I suspect this conflict is known by different names to the Russians and the Georgians.
Hehe. One of my friends suggested that whenever Northerners hear "War of Northern Aggression" or "War between the states", we refer to it as "The Southern Slaveholders' Revolt." (Despite the fact that this is totally inaccurate.)
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/18/2008 2:11:33 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2136
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: online
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quote:
Just having some fun with ya.
Down here, some actually still refer to it as the War of Northern Aggression.
It will always be Sherman's BBQ to me. ; )
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/18/2008 2:17:44 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2136
Joined: 4/14/2005
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I just got my tv and internet turned on for the first time in 2 weeks. Has Condoleeza Chamberlain and Neville Bush got this situation under control yet? Or are we being led by a bunch of ultra peaceniks now? This is a US ally we're talking about. I just hope those Georgians didn't get shipped back by Halliburton I can only imagine the bill they'd receive if they gouged them like they do us. : /
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/18/2008 9:26:35 PM
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cog41
Posts: 622
Joined: 7/16/2006
From: The Great State of Texas
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quote:
It will always be Sherman's BBQ to me. ; )
Or A war Criminal's Free Pass In History.
Russia going next to Azerbajan or Armenia?
_____________________________
Psalm 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: "May they prosper who love you."
Hook'em Horns! Roll Tide!
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RE: Russia versus Georgia - 8/19/2008 10:15:17 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2136
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: online
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It looks like the League of Nations is upset with Russia:
quote:
BRUSSELS, Belgium (CNN) -- NATO has called for Russia to honor all six points of a cease-fire agreement brokered by the European Union last week aimed at ending the fighting in Georgia.
NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said on Tuesday that Russian forces were still inside Georgia despite the agreement to withdraw.
"We do not see signals of this happening," Scheffer said. "There can be no business as usual with Russia under the present circumstances."
I wonder what the League will do? Stop buying oil and natural gas from Russia? I haven't heard Neville Bush make any comments after the League made this one.
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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