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RE: Deathbed Confessions - 9/7/2008 3:09:21 AM
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upNORTder
Posts: 205
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
To me, this sounds like something taken straight out of John MacArthur's book...
I've never read any of MacArthur's books. I just don't find where scripure teaches of stillborn believers that remain unchanged after being born again, redeemed by the blood of God the Son, and indwelt by God the Holy Spirit.
The scripture, in fact, teaches the contrary: "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
If McArthur's book affirms that, then we're in agreement.
Are you expecting people to become new according to your standards or God's?
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RE: Deathbed Confessions - 9/11/2008 3:00:43 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6364
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quote:
ORIGINAL: supernova1976
What about the criminal on the cross that Jesus welcomed into paradise?
What about the one He didn't?
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RE: Deathbed Confessions - 9/11/2008 3:05:15 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6364
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quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
To me, this sounds like something taken straight out of John MacArthur's book...
I've never read any of MacArthur's books. I just don't find where scripure teaches of stillborn believers that remain unchanged after being born again, redeemed by the blood of God the Son, and indwelt by God the Holy Spirit.
The scripture, in fact, teaches the contrary: "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."
If McArthur's book affirms that, then we're in agreement.
Are you expecting people to become new according to your standards or God's?
Yes.
My turn: How can something be "new" if it remains unchanged in any way? I'm funny, but if a caterpillar emerged from its chrysalis with all those legs, a long hairy body, and no wings, I'd be inclined to say it had not metamorphed into anything. But you're free to call it a butterfly all you want.
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RE: Deathbed Confessions - 9/11/2008 3:18:03 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6364
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quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
Are you expecting people to become new according to your standards or God's?
Let me give you a more complete answer. Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruits."
Notice the phrase "You will know"? That means this isn't really an iffy proposition. It means we have the ability to know, not hope, not guess, but know.
How?
Well, He didn't leave us clueless, He said "...by their fruits." He goes on to give us guidelines for "knowing."
So, we can try to make this all mystical and hypothetical but God the Son gave us the tools to discern, to know, His standards of making the determination.
Are we cool with His guidelines on this or do we need your input and clarification?
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RE: Deathbed Confessions - 9/12/2008 11:55:53 AM
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upNORTder
Posts: 205
Joined: 7/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: supernova1976
What about the criminal on the cross that Jesus welcomed into paradise?
What about the one He didn't?
He didn't believe.
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RE: Deathbed Confessions - 9/12/2008 12:10:46 PM
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upNORTder
Posts: 205
Joined: 7/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
Are you expecting people to become new according to your standards or God's?
Let me give you a more complete answer. Jesus said, "You will know them by their fruits."
Notice the phrase "You will know"? That means this isn't really an iffy proposition. It means we have the ability to know, not hope, not guess, but know.
How?
Well, He didn't leave us clueless, He said "...by their fruits." He goes on to give us guidelines for "knowing."
So, we can try to make this all mystical and hypothetical but God the Son gave us the tools to discern, to know, His standards of making the determination.
Are we cool with His guidelines on this or do we need your input and clarification?
If someone is on thier deathbed and confesses that Jesus is Lord, who died for thier sins and they truly believe this in thier hearts then God will save them as He has promised. God knows if they truly believe or not, that's all that matters.
What could someone possibly do to convince you of a changed heart when they are near death? Are you angry that God would let someone lead a life of sin and then save them at the last minute? As a Christian, I am overjoyed to see someone saved, even a sinner!
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RE: Deathbed Confessions - 9/12/2008 12:31:35 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6364
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
What could someone possibly do to convince you of a changed heart when they are near death?
Obviously, they can't. But some have been contending for a conversion where one lives a long life after claiming to have been saved without the slightest change. That, according to scripture, is not possible.
The thief on the cross did not spend years and years rejecting the Gospel only to make a desperate plea when it was apparent his time was up. No, he was introduced to Jesus near death and believed. For that, I praise the Lord. All I'm saying is that I wouldn't put a lot of confidence in the salvation of someone that actively rejected the Gospel over many years until their last day on earth.
To a lesser degree, you see disproportionate number of people "get religion" between arrest and trial in our criminal justice system - people that seem to "loose religion" after sentencing and until going up for parole. But like deathbed confessions, there are some genuine conversions that last through trials, through the sentence, and after release. Those, however, are in the minority.
Almost everyone experiences moments when they think death is imminent. Many make all sorts of promises to God for delivery. And most promptly forget those promises or rationalize their "decisions" away. That's not cynicism, that's just recognizing they way we humans are under duress.
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RE: Deathbed Confessions - 9/12/2008 12:56:20 PM
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upNORTder
Posts: 205
Joined: 7/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
What could someone possibly do to convince you of a changed heart when they are near death?
Obviously, they can't. But some have been contending for a conversion where one lives a long life after claiming to have been saved without the slightest change. That, according to scripture, is not possible.
The thief on the cross did not spend years and years rejecting the Gospel only to make a desperate plea when it was apparent his time was up. No, he was introduced to Jesus near death and believed. For that, I praise the Lord. All I'm saying is that I wouldn't put a lot of confidence in the salvation of someone that actively rejected the Gospel over many years until their last day on earth.
To a lesser degree, you see disproportionate number of people "get religion" between arrest and trial in our criminal justice system - people that seem to "loose religion" after sentencing and until going up for parole. But like deathbed confessions, there are some genuine conversions that last through trials, through the sentence, and after release. Those, however, are in the minority.
Almost everyone experiences moments when they think death is imminent. Many make all sorts of promises to God for delivery. And most promptly forget those promises or rationalize their "decisions" away. That's not cynicism, that's just recognizing they way we humans are under duress.
I agree.
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RE: Deathbed Confessions - 9/26/2008 9:12:42 AM
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steve7150
Posts: 214
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
The Bible is very specific about the ABC's -- admit you are a sinner, believe that Jesus is Lord and Savior, and confess or repent of your sins. IF a person takes their last breath before they have had the chance to do this in front of a witness, THEN, there is no salvation for them.
Hi Page, Where in the bible does it mention anything about a witness?
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