RE: The mark of the beast (Full Version)

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bob97 -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/19/2008 10:51:30 AM)

Hi Saint…

Regarding the issue of “are we already marked” I can’t let it die just yet because it involves the biblical concept of eternal security.

Now if once saved always saved is true than it would be impossible for a Christian to receive the mark of the beast and lose their salvation.

In the same light, if the names of all intended Christians are written in the Lambs Book of Life (be they currently saved or will be saved) it seems will not be dammed because of receiving a mark.

These two passages of Rev seem to support this conclusion.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Bob



Sinner-Saint -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/19/2008 2:00:51 PM)

You CAN be blotted out of the Book of Life!

Exodus 32:32-3; Deuteronomy 29:20; and in the opposite case for those who DO overcome - Revelation 3:5.

- So while someone can be in the Book of Life, their name may be blotted out.
- Likewise with Luke 15, we must REMAIN in Christ - not just a one-time thing - in order to be considered fruitful. Otherwise we are dry branches which are thrown into the fire!
- While no one else can take us out of Jesus' grasp, that verse doesn't address whether or not we're kicking and biting as whether or not Jesus will let us go.

I do not subscribe to OSAS. We have a duty to continue to believe as the Greek present tense places that burden on us as well when we believe in Christ. We have a duty to follow Jesus' commands if we love Him. Taking the 'mark of the beast' would be exactly opposite of what we are commanded to do.



bob97 -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/19/2008 2:18:17 PM)

Wow....this leaves a real dilemma for a broad faction of Christendom if OSAS is not completely true doesn’t it? I have mixed emotions regarding the issue but I lean towards your position of being able to walk away and I’m sure not going to let my guard down.

I’m not going to pursue this issue because it starts to get off track…on the other hand it is very relevant for so many who blindly feel that nothing can lead them astray.

Bob



Sinner-Saint -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/19/2008 6:55:04 PM)

This type of theological question has an eschatological bearing.

If I am correct in placing the Rapture after the Great Tribulation, then Christians have to beware of taking the Mark.

The Bible does not allow for the Elect to adopt the mark and live eternally.

Indeed, the Elect die wholesale in the end times according to Jesus.

Furthermore, Jesus warns us NOT to try to save our own lives, but to give that life up to get it eternally.

Moreover again, three times we are told to endure patiently. Indeed, overcomers from the Church of Philadelphia endure patiently first before God watches (out) over them.



benelchi -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/19/2008 7:07:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint

This type of theological question has an eschatological bearing.

If I am correct in placing the Rapture after the Great Tribulation, then Christians have to beware of taking the Mark.

The Bible does not allow for the Elect to adopt the mark and live eternally.

Indeed, the Elect die wholesale in the end times according to Jesus.

Furthermore, Jesus warns us NOT to try to save our own lives, but to give that life up to get it eternally.

Moreover again, three times we are told to endure patiently. Indeed, overcomers from the Church of Philadelphia endure patiently first before God watches (out) over them.


There are a lot of questions about the mark that we will likely only be able to answer in hind site i.e. is it a mark or is it a chip , is it physical or is it spiritual, etc..., but the one thing I am sure that we can answer today is that the mark is not something a Christian will take by accident. Worrying about accidentally taking the mark is something the elect need and should not do.



Sinner-Saint -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/19/2008 7:41:01 PM)

The mark is specifically given (ostensibly by the government) at the midpoint of the one 'seven.'

It is impressed.
It is mandatory for buying and selling.
It will completely replace plastic and paper.
It is one of the two reasons the Great Tribulation is so great.

Not taking the mark is one of the reasons the Elect are nearly exterminated by the time Jesus finally comes on the Day of the Lord at some nebulous point after the midpoint of the one 'seven.'



benelchi -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/19/2008 8:08:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint

The mark is specifically given (ostensibly by the government) at the midpoint of the one 'seven.'

It is impressed.
It is mandatory for buying and selling.
It will completely replace plastic and paper.
It is one of the two reasons the Great Tribulation is so great.

Not taking the mark is one of the reasons the Elect are nearly exterminated by the time Jesus finally comes on the Day of the Lord at some nebulous point after the midpoint of the one 'seven.'



This much is entirely conjecture. Is it a possibly, yes, but it is not something we are clearly told in scripture.



Sinner-Saint -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/19/2008 8:55:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi
This much is entirely conjecture. Is it a possibly, yes, but it is not something we are clearly told in scripture.

What? (I almost spit on the computer as I read this while taking a sip of water.)

MIDPOINT ABOMINATION:
Daniel 9:27
In the middle of the`seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. "

Revelation 13
He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

THE MARK IS GIVEN:
to receive a mark on his right hand
From didoni: to give.

WITH THE WEIGHT OF LAW:
16 He also forced everyone
Ostensibly by the government because the anti-Christ IS ruling.

IT IS AN IMPRESSION:
to receive a mark on his right hand
The Greek has it as charagma, an impression, as a mark or a stamp.
I think it will be impressed as well.

IT IS MANDATORY FOR BUYING OR SELLING:
17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark
With a computer chip and the internet we won't need paper of plastic.
In fact, neither are as secure as a chip.
Neither paper nor plastic will give the anti-Christ the control he desires.

IT IS ONE OF THE TWO REASONS THE GREAT TRIBULATION IS SO GREAT.
all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark

MT 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

So for you to say this is something we are not told in Scripture has me wondering what you're thinking!



benelchi -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/20/2008 12:13:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi
This much is entirely conjecture. Is it a possibly, yes, but it is not something we are clearly told in scripture.

What? (I almost spit on the computer as I read this while taking a sip of water.)

MIDPOINT ABOMINATION:
Daniel 9:27
In the middle of the`seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. "

Revelation 13
He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. 15 He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

THE MARK IS GIVEN:
to receive a mark on his right hand
From didoni: to give.

WITH THE WEIGHT OF LAW:
16 He also forced everyone
Ostensibly by the government because the anti-Christ IS ruling.

IT IS AN IMPRESSION:
to receive a mark on his right hand
The Greek has it as charagma, an impression, as a mark or a stamp.
I think it will be impressed as well.

IT IS MANDATORY FOR BUYING OR SELLING:
17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark
With a computer chip and the internet we won't need paper of plastic.
In fact, neither are as secure as a chip.
Neither paper nor plastic will give the anti-Christ the control he desires.

IT IS ONE OF THE TWO REASONS THE GREAT TRIBULATION IS SO GREAT.
all who refused to worship the image to be killed. 16 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark

MT 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again. 22 If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

So for you to say this is something we are not told in Scripture has me wondering what you're thinking!


I just read the scripture and ignore your commentary, God's word is inspired your commentary is not.

Let's just look at the facts:

1) Aside from those holding to dispensational theology (something only couple of centuries old), most scholars reject the idea that the 70th week of Daniel was "held" over. They believe the 70th week concluded with Christ's first coming.

2) While the Greek word can mean impression, it is often translated to mean simply mark.

3) while the Scripture says that not having the mark will make it impossible to buy or sell, it does not define how that will happen. It could be that the mark is used to "pay" for items, but it is also possible that the mark is simply and identification of those who will be authorized to make purchases by other means, like with plastic or paper.



Sinner-Saint -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/20/2008 9:43:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi
I just read the scripture and ignore your commentary, God's word is inspired your commentary is not.

Well then the commentary of "most scholars" saying the one 'seven' has already passed is also not inspired and I'll ignore it as well.

I thought you might be one of those 'everything in Revelations is symbolic' Amillennialists.

...Worse yet, saying the one 'seven' is already passed, you might be a Preterist... That is the most ridiculous eschatological position in my opinion because it is wholly unsupported.

If you want to say an impression doesn't have to be an impression or that you can buy or sell without the mark - then you are making an interpretation which is quite opposite what Scripture says, and so, it is also not inspired being contradictory and, your opinion as well...

If words don't mean things, we can make them out to be whatever we want.

The plain fact is Gabriel set three things between the sixty-second 'seven' and the one 'seven.'

1. Christ's cutting off (where the verb to cut off also refers to the shedding of blood which is required for a true covenant).

2. The destruction of the city and the Sanctuary which even if you think Daniel was written after the fact like many Bible critics contend also correctly prophesized the destruction of A.D. 70. By the way, this fact allows us to know the origin of the still-future anti-Christ as being Roman.

3. Wars will continue and this condition has been ongoing for over two thousand years. We will have war when the one 'seven' starts and it will continue in the one 'seven' and it will be horrible at times in the one 'seven' even more so than in the 20th century.

So you can think the one 'seven' is not held over, but Scripture says otherwise.

Thanks for sharing.



benelchi -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/20/2008 12:17:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi
I just read the scripture and ignore your commentary, God's word is inspired your commentary is not.

Well then the commentary of "most scholars" saying the one 'seven' has already passed is also not inspired and I'll ignore it as well.

I thought you might be one of those 'everything in Revelations is symbolic' Amillennialists.

...Worse yet, saying the one 'seven' is already passed, you might be a Preterist... That is the most ridiculous eschatological position in my opinion because it is wholly unsupported.

If words don't mean things, we can make them out to be whatever we want.


Two points:

One, I have not shared my point of view, so you you are just making absurd guesses when you declare what I believe.

Two, Do you realize that for over one and a half Millenniums, no one in the church understood these passages as you have declared that they MUST be interpreted, and some of what you claim is clear in scripture are things that have been proposed only in the last 50 years! Do you really believe that for nearly 2000 years everyone has decided that "words don't mean things, we can make them out to be whatever we want.", and only you have been ethical enough to read what the these words truly mean? What absolute arrogance!

quote:


If you want to say an impression doesn't have to be an impression


Every Greek scholars seems to say the same thing. They don't believe 'charagma' means impression rather than mark. Could the mark be an impression, Yes, but must be an impression based on Scripture, ABSOLUTELY NOT!

quote:


or that you can buy or sell without the mark - then you are making an interpretation which is quite opposite what Scripture says, and so, it is also not inspired being contradictory and, your opinion as well...


Here you are just dishonestly twisting my words; Here is what I said:

"while the Scripture says that not having the mark will make it impossible to buy or sell, it does not define how that will happen. It could be that the mark is used to "pay" for items, but it is also possible that the mark is simply and identification of those who will be authorized to make purchases by other means, like with plastic or paper."

When you declare exactly what the Mark is, and exactly how it will be used to prevent people from buying and selling, you have gone far beyond anything Scripture has told us. While I don't believe this kind of conjecture is unreasonable, the absolute dogmatism you have displayed is completely unreasonable!



quote:


The plain fact is Gabriel set three things between the sixty-second 'seven' and the one 'seven.'

1. Christ's cutting off (where the verb to cut off also refers to the shedding of blood which is required for a true covenant).

2. The destruction of the city and the Sanctuary which even if you think Daniel was written after the fact like many Bible critics contend also correctly prophesized the destruction of A.D. 70. By the way, this fact allows us to know the origin of the still-future anti-Christ as being Roman.

3. Wars will continue and this condition has been ongoing for over two thousand years. We will have war when the one 'seven' starts and it will continue in the one 'seven' and it will be horrible at times in the one 'seven' even more so than in the 20th century.


There are many biblical scholars who disagree with your opinion given here, and while some do agree, most do recognize that there interpretation is only an opinion and not a biblical fact, something that seems to have escaped your thought process.

quote:


So you can think the one 'seven' is not held over, but Scripture says otherwise.

Thanks for sharing.


Again you have really seemed to confuse what scripture says with your interpretation of scripture; these really are NOT the same. While I have no difficulty with those who hold to the theological perspective you have presented, I am bothered by those who don't seem to know where scriptural authority ends and their opinion begins. While it is reasonable for you to hold to some of the interpretations that you have presented, it is entirely unreasonable for you to declare that others are ignoring scripture or insincere in their studies simply because they don't agree with you. That is simply arrogance!



stephanos -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/20/2008 1:17:46 PM)

While am a premillenialist, I have to agree with Benelchi's main points here. The facts are dispensational pre-millenialism is a NEW theology. It has NO historic roots. And while that does not mean that it is automatically wrong, to argue that pre-millenialism is the only position possible to take, or to even hint (either overtly or unintentionally) that a dispensational pre mil view of eschatology is required for salvation (or anything like that) is down right wrong and unbiblial to boot.

It is interesting that most dispy's dont realize how young their view is. ANd when they try to argue its superiority with out touching on this fact, it only shows their ignorance. If you support dispy pre mil, that is fine. But support it knowing that it is a NEW interpretation in Eschatology, and do so with out a arrogance of superiority that you HAVE to be right just because this is the current fad in eschatology.

It should be noted that I consider myself somewhere between dispy Pre-Mil and Historic Pre-Mil, as there are parts of each view of Eschatology that I disagree with.

Getting back to the "Mark".

It is interesting that those who view the mark of the beast as some sort of implant, that holds all banking info ect on it, also continue to use a SSN. Did you know that here in the states you can not get buy with OUT having a SSN? You cant get a job, you cant apply for loans, you cant get a US Passport. This is why Identity theft is so big, people steel OTHERS SSN's and use them as their own.

So I have to ask, is this a type of "Mark". Is this a precurser to the evil mark of Satan? If so, does having this "mark" make me loose my salvation since I freely use my SSN. What is it that makes soemthing harmless one second and the next make it the evil "Mark of the Beast"? This is why I believe that the mark is not something tangible.

FYI. This may get some people rialled up and I just dare you to try to push me on this. But I personally would not be opposed to getting a microchip implanted that functions as my bank card/identity-medical chip (if I am in a horrible accident)/ect. So long as it is proven to be medically safe to do so, and not cost prohibitive, I would certianly entertain the idea of getting such a device. Oh and I AM saved and DO Fully believe in the "P" in "TULIP". (That is Perseverance of the Saints for those not in the "know").



bob97 -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/20/2008 2:38:49 PM)

I agree Stephanos…when the real mark appears God will grant the discernment to those of Christ. We will full well know when it arrives.

Interim data collection schemes confront us in all aspects of our lives. For example… as I type this someone in control can locate my position. Being hidden in today’s world is a fantasy.

The only thing that protects us today is the inability of government to organize all data in one central file.

Bob



Sinner-Saint -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/20/2008 4:25:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi
I have not shared my point of view, so you you [sic] are just making absurd guesses when you declare what I believe.

My, my, aren't we combative. So what is your belief? So far, you're still sounding like an Amillennialist spouting off about what the Church believed for hundreds of years.

For hundreds of years the Church thought the world was flat.
For hundreds of years the Church killed Christians who believed in Jesus only.

So I really don't care what people say who while you reference them; there are absolutely no sources for what you say. Who are these nameless scholars? Are they indeed most of the scholars who have looked at it? I too am a scholar and not all scholars agree. So the question is not what some scholars think or even what the majority think but why they think what they do based on a reading of the Scripture.

We are all equal in this endeavor and we all go back to one source: the Bible.

And for all your barbed replies you haven't done anything to give a reasoned response other than to try and tear down something without any real evidence why I'm wrong. So the jury is still out on arrogance... I think being insulting is pretty arrogant.



ta_mosquito -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/20/2008 5:01:35 PM)

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Sinner-Saint and Benelchi - please knock off the insults back and forth. Sinner-Saint, you're being insulting yourself. Both of you, please stick to topic.

Thank you!

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FurGodWurLivin -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/21/2008 4:51:47 AM)

quote:

Wow....this leaves a real dilemma for a broad faction of Christendom if OSAS is not completely true doesn’t it? I have mixed emotions regarding the issue but I lean towards your position of being able to walk away and I’m sure not going to let my guard down.

I’m not going to pursue this issue because it starts to get off track…on the other hand it is very relevant for so many who blindly feel that nothing can lead them astray.
Why kick a Grizzly? If this is where we will leave it, there it will be left...
quote:

This type of theological question has an eschatological bearing.

If I am correct in placing the Rapture after the Great Tribulation, then Christians have to beware of taking the Mark.

The Bible does not allow for the Elect to adopt the mark and live eternally.

Indeed, the Elect die wholesale in the end times according to Jesus.

Furthermore, Jesus warns us NOT to try to save our own lives, but to give that life up to get it eternally.

Moreover again, three times we are told to endure patiently. Indeed, overcomers from the Church of Philadelphia endure patiently first before God watches (out) over them.
**Ding!** +10 points, Sinner-Saint! It is specifically for this reason that the mark of the beast will require an excercise of the will. It has to be able to be refused. The elect will be dying right along the sinners in the end-times, though for very different reasons indeed.
quote:

There are a lot of questions about the mark that we will likely only be able to answer in hind site
Well, let's answer a couple right now, eh?
quote:

is it a mark or is it a chip?
Yes!
quote:

is it physical or is it spiritual?
Yes!
quote:

etc..., but the one thing I am sure that we can answer today is that the mark is not something a Christian will take by accident. Worrying about accidentally taking the mark is something the elect need and should not do.
Jackpot! Give the boy a cigar!
quote:

The mark is specifically given (ostensibly by the government) at the midpoint of the one 'seven.'

It is impressed.
It is mandatory for buying and selling.
True...
quote:

It will completely replace plastic and paper.
It is one of the two reasons the Great Tribulation is so great.
In theory... true. Not necessarily, but in theory yes...
quote:

Not taking the mark is one of the reasons the Elect are nearly exterminated by the time Jesus finally comes on the Day of the Lord at some nebulous point after the midpoint of the one 'seven.'
Well... only slightly nebulous... there's a span of roughly 2-3 months after the technical "end" of the seven... so it will be somewhere in that timeframe, most likely.
quote:

1) Aside from those holding to dispensational theology (something only couple of centuries old), most scholars reject the idea that the 70th week of Daniel was "held" over. They believe the 70th week concluded with Christ's first coming.
Not really "most"... Some, yes and some no. It is very true that Premilleniaism is very young. As Stephanos said, that doesn't automatically disqualify it, it just means that it wasn't as mainline as it is right now.
quote:

2) While the Greek word can mean impression, it is often translated to mean simply mark.

3) while the Scripture says that not having the mark will make it impossible to buy or sell, it does not define how that will happen. It could be that the mark is used to "pay" for items, but it is also possible that the mark is simply and identification of those who will be authorized to make purchases by other means, like with plastic or paper.
Both points are very true and very valid. It will be impossible to conduct commerce... what form that takes is all conjecture.
quote:

That is the most ridiculous eschatological position in my opinion because it is wholly unsupported.
Not really... force fit, yes... wholly unsupportable? Not so much.
quote:

By the way, this fact allows us to know the origin of the still-future anti-Christ as being Roman.
Addendum... lends support to the idea... doesn't prove. Why? Specifically because there are six "empires" that have all been "Roman" in one form or another. Namely, the Roman Republic (precurser to the Empire of Jesus day), The Roman Empire, the Byzantines, the Western Roman Empire, the Holy Roman Empire, and the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman empire covered a fourth of the known world at the time... so basically, anything from in that area can count as "Roman".
quote:

It is interesting that those who view the mark of the beast as some sort of implant, that holds all banking info ect on it, also continue to use a SSN. Did you know that here in the states you can not get buy with OUT having a SSN? You cant get a job, you cant apply for loans, you cant get a US Passport. This is why Identity theft is so big, people steel OTHERS SSN's and use them as their own.

So I have to ask, is this a type of "Mark". Is this a precurser to the evil mark of Satan? If so, does having this "mark" make me loose my salvation since I freely use my SSN. What is it that makes soemthing harmless one second and the next make it the evil "Mark of the Beast"? This is why I believe that the mark is not something tangible.
I would argue that this is comparing Apples and Oranges. Being assigned a number in a database as a result of being an American Citizen is a far cry from bowing down to an idol, recieving some kind of implant/tatoo, and losing your soul. First, you don't HAVE to have an SSN number to buy and sell stuff in the USA (exhibit A: illegal aliens can make a reasonable living in the US without one). It makes things a heck of a lot easier, but cold hard cash has a way of greasing the gears if you are stuck in the machine. That is why many who believe in a physically applied mark believe that it will replace paper currency... because it's only really impossible to buy stuff if you have no cash. Its flimsy, biblically speaking, but it does make sense logically.

You didn't have to bow down and worship the Statue of Liberty to get your SSN. Your SSN is (hopefully) not tattooed on your forehead... unless you had a really uber-creepy doctor attending your delivery. So, rather than apples and oranges, this is more like comparing apples and goiters.
quote:

FYI. This may get some people rialled up and I just dare you to try to push me on this. But I personally would not be opposed to getting a microchip implanted that functions as my bank card/identity-medical chip (if I am in a horrible accident)/ect. So long as it is proven to be medically safe to do so, and not cost prohibitive, I would certianly entertain the idea of getting such a device.
I'm not opposed to the idea in theory. However, I would need a couple assurances before signing up for it voluntarily. Namely, "is it medically safe?" And perhaps more importantly, "Does it have a GPS signal?" If the answers to those questions were "Yes" and "No" respectively, I would have no qualms about it. Just make sure that you aren't having to pose for the odd statue that seems alive, and you should be square.

As for being able to hide out in modern America, it is possible. Avoid phones, credit cards, and most modern electronics manufactures after about 2001, and it is more than possible.
quote:

Interim data collection schemes confront us in all aspects of our lives. For example… as I type this someone in control can locate my position. Being hidden in today’s world is a fantasy.

The only thing that protects us today is the inability of government to organize all data in one central file.
Privacy ain't what it used to be, yo... For once, Bureacracy (sp? dang I missed it) is a gift...

Adam



tracydolls -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/22/2008 4:16:31 AM)

quote:

it relates wholly to economics.



The mark I believe will be physical because you will not be able to eat or have physical comforts if you don't have it.'

quote:

If it becomes the law, I think we will all be surprised at how many people line up for it voluntarily.


I believe the mark is the verichip already here.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080821/tc_nm/mexico_crime_chips_dc

""8/21/2008

QUERETARO, Mexico (Reuters) - Wealthy Mexicans, terrified of soaring kidnapping rates, are spending thousands of dollars to implant tiny transmitters under their skin so satellites can help find them.""

quote:


No one has ever successfully been tied up, tortured, and forced to convert to Christianity.



I beg to differ! You can find some horrific stories of torture against peoples to convert to Christianity.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

"""Suspicions were especially raised against Jews who had recently converted to Christianity, called conversos or derogatively marranos, as many doubted the sincerity of these conversions. Indeed, many Jews had been baptized to escape violent anti-Jewish outbursts around 1400. In 1492, the Alhambra Decree ordered all remaining Jews who would not convert to Christianity to leave the kingdoms."""'


Personally I don't think we will "raptured" I think He will shorten the days for the Elect.

But I think we are going to have some "days". I'm don't even try to guess how many.

Just these verses alone get me to thinking? How many of us could live wit out buying or selling?


People will get the chip so they can buy the next Iphone. Because Oh my gosh They just could'nt live with out it. No way, dude.

Forget food. By the time we get to food shortages, alot of people will already be chipped![8|]



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/22/2008 6:24:40 AM)

quote:

I believe the mark is the verichip already here.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080821/tc_nm/mexico_crime_chips_dc

""8/21/2008

QUERETARO, Mexico (Reuters) - Wealthy Mexicans, terrified of soaring kidnapping rates, are spending thousands of dollars to implant tiny transmitters under their skin so satellites can help find them.""
That is an unfortunately popular opinion. However, it is in no way tied to worship of the AntiChrist. So the current use of the VeriChip technology is not the mark of the Beast.
quote:

I beg to differ! You can find some horrific stories of torture against peoples to convert to Christianity.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Inquisition

"""Suspicions were especially raised against Jews who had recently converted to Christianity, called conversos or derogatively marranos, as many doubted the sincerity of these conversions. Indeed, many Jews had been baptized to escape violent anti-Jewish outbursts around 1400. In 1492, the Alhambra Decree ordered all remaining Jews who would not convert to Christianity to leave the kingdoms."""'
However, are those conversions genuine or valid? I would definitely think not. When the Inquisition passed, those Jews returned to being Jews. Quite simply, they "converted" to stop the persecution, but it was not genuine conversion. With the Mark, however, it is going to be a much clearer and more straightforward choice. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Adam



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