RE: The mark of the beast (Full Version)

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WesP -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/15/2008 1:53:51 PM)

quote:

So if someone FORCES you to take the implant. I mean beats you up, ties you to a chair so you can not move, and force a chip in you. Then that means you can not be saved? This is exactly why the mark of the beast is NOT POSSIBLY a chip. The other reason is that the bible is quite clear that BELIEVERS will ALSO be getting a MARK!!! This mark will ALSO be VISIBLE to everyone. So why is one mark a spiritual truth, and one is a physical object? The answer is again, these chip implants are NOT the mark of the beast (or of God for that matter) PERIOD!


Seems like it should be VERY obvious, does it not? But instead we get this:

quote:

Amen, when you see the leaves on the tree you know that this will come about in its appointed season. Christ told us: 'hypocrites, you can tell when its going to rain, but you cannot interpret the seasons that right in front of you!'


I am quite confident in my discernment regardless of the implication of statements like this. Thanks!



Carico -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/17/2008 10:23:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephanos

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephanos

Why is it so hard for people to understand or comprehend that the "Marks" (notice marks as if you truly know your scripture you would know that believers get one too) will be supernatural manifestations of the inward heart. I personally believe that tattoo like marks will "appear" on people as they make their final choices during the tribulation. The true mark is NOT a implant or something put in by the government. If that were true then that would mean that the government could FORCE you to hell by FORCING their mark on you. LaHaye tried to get around this in one of his books (this is what made me leave the series) by saying someone had "both marks showing". That is just silly nonsense.

And as cow said, if these chips are bad, what about other implants such as internal hearing aids, pacemakers, ect. What happens when we start getting functional artificial eyes (not just glass ones)? Will THAT be evil too?

Rev. 13 doesn't say that the mark of the beast will be in the ears, or heart. So hearing aids and heart implants are not applicable. It says the hand or forehead.

Also, Rev. 21 says that those who didn't receive the mark of the beast will be saved. That means that one has to stand firm when everyone else receives it.


So if someone FORCES you to take the implant. I mean beats you up, ties you to a chair so you can not move, and force a chip in you. Then that means you can not be saved? This is exactly why the mark of the beast is NOT POSSIBLY a chip. The other reason is that the bible is quite clear that BELIEVERS will ALSO be getting a MARK!!! This mark will ALSO be VISIBLE to everyone. So why is one mark a spiritual truth, and one is a physical object? The answer is again, these chip implants are NOT the mark of the beast (or of God for that matter) PERIOD!

So then why the phrase, "right hand" or "forehead' if this verse is figurative, not literal? [sm=sadquestion.gif] Those are very specific places.

Also, God protects His chosen. The word "force" applies to the phrase that no one can buy or sell without the mark. In other words, the use of the word force in that context means that the only way to buy or sell is to wear the mark of the beast. That doesn't mean that everyone will have to wear the mark any more than everyone is forced to have a credit card if only credit cards could buy or sell. There are some people like the Amish who live away from society and grow their own food. It's quite possible that they could buy and sell what they have to buy and sell from friends who wear the mark.

My only reason in posting this idea is in making sure that we understand that verse and are not being deceived by Satan. After all, most of the world will see nothing wrong with GPS technology which is why the Anti-Christ can very easily fool most people. So as Jesus tells us, "What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight."[;)]



stephanos -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/17/2008 2:27:56 PM)

You are completely missing it.

The marks are REAL marks, but they are not put there by any force under heaven. They are a divine sign, a "mark" if you will on who you serve. They WILL be on people's hands and foreheads. But again these marks are not man made. They are divine.

And now you are saying GPS technology in general is satanic? Wow you are even more in the loonie bin than I thought of. I guess this makes the US military evil as it was one of the original designers and users of GPS.

People THIS is why you need to start studying scripture for yourself instead of listening to nuts like LaHaye.



eschatologist -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/17/2008 4:26:52 PM)

Taking the entire chapter of Revelations 13 into context it is clear that taking the mark of the beast will not just be a simple financial decision like applying for a debit or credit card. Those who take the mark of the beast will be making a conscious decision to reject Jesus and the One true God who created all things, and to worship the devil in the person of the antichrist instead.

"and all the world wondered after the beast (the antichrist), And they worshipped the dragon (the devil) which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast saying, Who is like unto the beast? and who is able to make war with him?" (verses 3-4)

"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months." (verse5) This forty and two months is the 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation. The Antichrist is blaspheming God and Jesus and Christianity during this whole time and everybody who takes the mark will be saying that they agree with his blasphemies. This point continues in the next couple of verse.

Verses 6-7: "And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in Heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, (all christians who are still alive during this great tribulation period) and to overcome them: and power was given Him over all kindreds and tongues and nations." When it says that the antichrist shall make war with (or persecute) the christans and overcome them, it means in the physical he will overcome us and the entire world of christian believers will have to flee into the wilderness to try and escape the antichrist persecution. But we will overcome him in the spiritual sense, as Revelations 12:11 says, "And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony: and they loved not their lives unto the death."

Jesus said in Revelations 3:21, "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in His throne." Jesus overcame by not compromising with the devil and his temptations even though it meant eventually being killed by the antichrist people of His day. Even so, we'll be overcoming the antichrist and the devil by refusing to take the mark of the beast and worshipping the devil even though it means we will be martyred and have to die for our Faith.

This doesn't mean that everybody will have to die. Most will be protected and kept by the power of God until the very end of the great tribulation when Jesus comes back to rapture and resurrect His saints of all ages. Revelations 12:6 and 14, "And the woman (The entire world of christian believers) fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (This again is the 3 1/2 year length of time of the great tribulation) And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wildertness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time from the face of the serpent." Here again, one time= 1 year, and times=2years and half a time=1/2 year: the 3 1/2 years of the great tribulation.

Back to Revelations 13 verse 8: "and all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." So the whole world of unbelievers shall worship the antichrist as God.

Next the chapter gets into a second beast who, it seems, is the AC's right hand man, the False prophet who persuades the whole world to worship the beast. I won't quote all the references since you can read them for yourselves. But I would like to go to verse 14 and 15 first. Here the false prophet is persuading the world to make an image to the beast "and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed." This is the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet that is placed in the temple in Jeruselem. (An image of the antichrist that everybody is supposed to worship, an idol)

"And he causeth all both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand or in their foreheads, And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark or the number of the beast, or the number of his name." This is how he will control the people, by not letting anybody earn a living unless they worship the beast and his image. And of course the unsaved who love the things of this world and and the physical pleasures of this life will be decieved by the false prophet and the antichrist and will make the conscius decision to worship the devil and take his mark and therefore will die in the death of this world and suffer the wrath of God. But all of the saved who have set their affection on things above and not on things of this world, who know that this world is not our home, but our home is in heaven where Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God, will refuse to take the mark of the beast and worship the antichrist, and therefore we will live forever.

"Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life is not of the Father but is of the world, And the world passeth away and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever." (IJohn 2:15-17)



eschatologist -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/17/2008 4:48:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephanos

You are completely missing it.

The marks are REAL marks, but they are not put there by any force under heaven. They are a divine sign, a "mark" if you will on who you serve. They WILL be on people's hands and foreheads. But again these marks are not man made. They are divine.

And now you are saying GPS technology in general is satanic? Wow you are even more in the loonie bin than I thought of. I guess this makes the US military evil as it was one of the original designers and users of GPS.

People THIS is why you need to start studying scripture for yourself instead of listening to nuts like LaHaye.


Personnally I believe that the mark of the beast is a man made mark established and put there by that false prophet and the antichrist's forces. Because it says that the false prophet will cause all to recieve a mark in their right hand or in their forehead. It says that the false prophet will cause it to happen. This indicates to me that it is something manmade that the AC forces put on people.



stephanos -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/17/2008 9:26:36 PM)

So the Mark of the Beast is man made, but its counterpart, the Mark of God is merely spiritual? Again remember that the Mark of God is ALSO going to be on the hand or forehead. Again, why is THIS sign, spiritual, but its counterpart is a physical man made object?



Peter_Gunn -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/17/2008 10:10:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephanos

So the Mark of the Beast is man made, but its counterpart, the Mark of God is merely spiritual? Again remember that the Mark of God is ALSO going to be on the hand or forehead. Again, why is THIS sign, spiritual, but its counterpart is a physical man made object?


Please forgive me if this info has already been provided, but I cannot find it reading here...where is the scripture that speaks to the "Mark of God"?

Thanks!



Sinner-Saint -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/17/2008 10:21:58 PM)

The "impression" referrred to in Revelation 13 is physical and it is tied to a physical activity.

Current chip technology, which was not possible fifteen years ago, satisfies this physical requirement of prophecy.

The question, Stephanos, is where a person goes to rely?

Faced with a stuation where I have to get "chipped" or suffer the consequences whereby I will not be able to work, or in my profession, even get access to my workplace, and moreover not be able to conduct commerce with Lowes, Giant food stores, or even Starbucks without this modern convenience which is designed to make me safer, fight the war on terrorism all while allowing the collection of data to be compiled so that any official of the state can investigate and the highest official oversees all of it - is to rely on that system of man for my very life.

If I choose to save myself and eat, then I should not be surprised even if I am passed by when the Lord comes only to suffer His Wrath over the next three or so years until I meet a ghastly end anyways... and it won't matter if I have 'Jesus in my heart' when I've denied Him by what is on my hand.



bob97 -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/17/2008 11:13:15 PM)

Here is my problem with some of the obscure marks, I say obscure because we cannot identify them with any action of the Antichrist. For example take my social security number which could be used to collect data, track my movements and be used to control my buying or selling. The same goes with any device used by the government to aid in the curtailment of terrorist activity.

Now the bible tells me if I were to take the mark of the beast, I would be condemned. As a result I am quite sure that when the mark presents itself, God will give me the discernment to recognize it.

It would appear that the mark associated with the beast could quite likely be in the form of worship…isn’t that what it says in Rev 14:9; And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand.

Bob



Sinner-Saint -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/18/2008 8:45:36 AM)

Bob,

Yours is another good point. This happens at the midpoint abomination: the erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ, the ruler who will come who is King of the North.

Timing is important. Current chips are not the mark of the beast, however, I would be loathe to think being chipped in any way really keeps me "safer."

This is a physical act which allows a person to engage in a physical activity which is required to sustain one's life.

This law is but one of two which will make the Great Tribulation so great for the Elect.

The warning by Jesus two thousand years ago becomes apt: those that try to save their lives will lose it for all eternity.



stephanos -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/18/2008 9:41:01 AM)

Here are several verses that talk to a Mark of God.

“Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! “ You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. “These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. “ You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as 2 frontals on your forehead. “ You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates." - Deuteronomy 6:4-9

"Then He cried out in my hearing with a loud voice saying, “Draw near, O executioners of the city, each with his destroying weapon in his hand.” Behold, six men came from the direction of the upper gate which faces north, each with his shattering weapon in his hand; and among them was a certain man clothed in linen with a writing case at his loins. And they went in and stood beside the bronze altar. Then the glory of the God of Israel went up from the cherub on which it had been, to the threshold of the temple. And He called to the man clothed in linen at whose loins was the writing case. The LORD said to him, “Go through the midst of the city, even through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations which are being committed in its midst.” But to the others He said in my hearing, “Go through the city after him and strike; do not let your eye have pity and do not spare.“ Utterly slay old men, young men, maidens, little children, and women, but do not touch any man on whom is the mark; and you shall start from My sanctuary.” - Ezekiel 9:1-6

"And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, “ Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.” - Revelation 7:2-3



bob97 -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/18/2008 10:07:49 AM)

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“Go through the midst of the city, even through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations which are being committed in its midst.” But to the others He said in my hearing, “Go through the city after him and strike; do not let your eye have pity and do not spare.“ Utterly slay old men, young men, maidens, little children, and women, but do not touch any man on whom is the mark;



If we belong to Christ or if we will belong to Christ (God in His foreknowledge will know) we are sealed by the Holy Spirit. Those who worship the abominations of wickedness either lack a mark or maybe have another kind of mark.

Is it possible that we are already marked?

Bob



Sinner-Saint -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/18/2008 10:12:17 AM)

The ‘Mark of the Beast’ has certain overtones to a similar sign in the Old Testament with the reference to head and hands, but there is an important aspect in the original language that distinguishes the two. In Deuteronomy it relates to thoughts and actions as they pertain to a person’s relationship with God, while the latter in Revelation shows it is much more material in its application dealing with external relationships with man in a very worldly sense.

DT 6:8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads.

The point in Deuteronomy is that this would be a sign. Concentrating on hands and head at this junction confuses the function between the two. The operative word between Revelation and Deuteronomy is the action in each. In Deuteronomy, what the NIV calls symbols and the NASB calls a sign comes from the word, ‘ot and is best described in the Greek as semeion, according to the Word Book of the Old Testament (page 39).

quote:

As a sign it appears as an outward expression, like the signs in the sky. It can also be a token expression. It can mean a sign of something that is greater than itself like the rainbow is the sign of the covenant.

First used in the second century B.C., Hasmonean Jews literally applied this by wearing phylacteries, the little box of God’s word on their forehead or arm. It marked them as different just as circumcision did. Circumcision itself was an outward sign that God controlled the most intimate aspect of a man’s being, his sexuality. But being circumcised does not necessitate any person follow God, it is only a sign.

Just as the Hasmoneans didn’t get the gist of what God meant, taking a sign literally; the overriding part of the passage in Deuteronomy cited as a corollary to Revelation is not the head and hands, but the aspect of practical instruction on how we are to love God. Focusing on the most literal aspect they elevated the symbology and made that the measure of how good they were and they forgot the greater aspects of God, and that is love. Jesus, the prophets, David and other Jews in the Book of Life kept God in their thoughts (head), and their actions (hands) followed.

Rev 13:16 He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, 17 so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

In Revelation, the mark is not a sign as it is in the symbolic sense as ‘ot is in the Hebrew. The Greek has it as charagma, an impression, as a mark or a stamp according to the Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. And it is received as in to give, from didomi. While certain authors comment on how this is not to be taken literally, that goes against the plain nature of the words here in a chapter meant to reveal. While the impression is symbolic of the worship given the beast with a fatal wound, it misses the context that John puts this impression in: it relates wholly to economics.

The symbology of this mark is truly demonic, just as is the false prophet too. It is relevant that God dismisses those that receive this impression as not being in the Book of Life. The relationship Christians are to keep is with God, and He is to guide thoughts and actions. But discounting this as a physical impression means it has to do so doubly because it is tied to a physical activity, buying and selling. Furthermore, the warning in the Bible is explicitly clear. Thus, rather than being speculative, this warning concerns a real concern that has just not yet been realized.

Rev 14:11b There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.

This is the second call for patient endurance in this parallel account. The first was during the first half of the seventieth ‘seven.’ This is also the third instance of hupomeno including standing firm in Luke 21:19 which also relates to the midweek point. Here it falls on the other side of the midweek as presented in the parallel account containing all of the seventieth ‘seven:’ Revelation chapters 13 through 16. Specifically, it falls right after the three angels call out their messages and just before the Son of Man comes on the cloud. This warning takes the Christian right up to the moment of their deliverance. Christians must remain faithful until the end. There will be some Christians still alive even with the unprecedented persecution and martyrdom of the first half week and this nebulous period of time after the midweek.



Sinner-Saint -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/18/2008 10:16:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97
Is it possible that we are already marked?

No, that is for the Jews who are still in Jerusalem on the second half of the Day of the Lord who are spared from being killed.

If they survive, they will ultimately join the Remnant in being part of the one-third of the Jews who will make it into the Millennium.

The 144,000 are sealed, but they are a special class of the Elect.



stephanos -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/18/2008 10:44:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinner-Saint

quote:

ORIGINAL: bob97
Is it possible that we are already marked?

No, that is for the Jews who are still in Jerusalem on the second half of the Day of the Lord who are spared from being killed.

If they survive, they will ultimately join the Remnant in being part of the one-third of the Jews who will make it into the Millennium.

The 144,000 are sealed, but they are a special class of the Elect.


Just a note, but not everyone is a proponent of a pre-tribulation Rapture. Some of us hold to a post-tribulation view of the rapture in a pre-millennial context.



benelchi -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/18/2008 11:33:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Diolectic

Note: Here is wisdom: Let the one having reason figure the number of the beast, for it is the lot of a man and its lot is chi xi stigma
Or as it looks like the phrase in Arabic "In the name of Allah" or "Bismalah".
It is best you google a pic of the greek number to see what I'm saying
I can not get greek letters on the phorum.

It is not 6,6,6

But it is 600 & 60 & 6
or 666

Therefore, since it is not 6,6,6, there must be a reason for the 600 & 60 & 6 ?.
It might be for the reason of making it look like the words "In the Name of Allah" or "Bismalah" in Arabic .

Something to think about.



Actually the Greek is 'exakosioi exekonta ex'

The Hebrew is 'shesh me'ot ve-shishim va-shesh', Arabic being very similar to Hebrew is
'sitta wa-situn wa-sitta mi'a'

Here is a link for the Aramaic

I am not sure where you got the Greek and Aramaic info that you did, but it simply wrong.



benelchi -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/18/2008 11:42:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico

Rev. 13 16 KJV, "And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads..."

Now until the 21st century, man didn't possess the ability to put a mark inside of someone's right hand or forehead until the new GPS computer chips which are now being distributed among the military. We now have the technology to do that. And Satan will entice the world to use that form of ID to buy and sell to try to prevent identity theft.

The problem is, that since technology seems natural to mankind, man will easily be deceived into believing that there's no harm in having a computer chip placed in his skin. So most people will think nothing of this event and that's how the anti-Christ will deceive the world into following him. [;)]Only the elect will be given the power from God to resist the chip because we will receive great persecution and pressure to conform to the world. I see no other way for the majority of the world to willingly receive the mark of beast except in this manner.

Any thoughts?



First, the Greek 'Epi' which is translated as in (in the KJV) is just as appropriately translated 'on' (as it is in most other versions), additionally in 1611 English 'in' is quite easily understood in the same sense we understand 'on' today. Trying to use this verse to prove that the Mark must be implanted in the hand or forehead is a mistake. Could it be something implanted that way, YES. Is it required to be something implanted that way based on this scripture, NO!

Second, this passage makes it clear that what ever this mark is, it is tied to to the worship of the of the beast. Whatever this mark is, I am absolutely sure from scripture that we as Christians will not be able to take it accidentally. We will have to make a conscious choice about whether we will serve God or the Beast. Those who choose the mark will do so knowing that they are choosing to reject Christ.


quote:

ORIGINAL: earthless

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephanos

Why is it so hard for people to understand or comprehend that the "Marks" (notice marks as if you truly know your scripture you would know that believers get one too) will be supernatural manifestations of the inward heart. I personally believe that tattoo like marks will "appear" on people as they make their final choices during the tribulation. The true mark is NOT a implant or something put in by the government. If that were true then that would mean that the government could FORCE you to hell by FORCING their mark on you. LaHaye tried to get around this in one of his books (this is what made me leave the series) by saying someone had "both marks showing". That is just silly nonsense.

And as cow said, if these chips are bad, what about other implants such as internal hearing aids, pacemakers, ect. What happens when we start getting functional artificial eyes (not just glass ones)? Will THAT be evil too?


Bingo.


While I absolutely agree with you that any "implant" is not inherently evil and FORCING a "mark" on a Christian, or even tricking a Christian into unknowingly getting a "mark", cannot affect a persons salvation. However, I think it goes beyond what scripture says to declare the mark is something entirely "supernatural". The strongest evidence against that position would be the statement made in the following verse that it will be used "so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark". From scripture I do not believe we are given enough information to definitively know in advance whether it is supernatural or physical. Rather we are given enough information to recognize what the mark is when the time comes that believers must choose to receive it. The fact that so many Christians who have made declarations throughout history have got this wrong should caution anyone about being too dogmatic in declaring what this mark is.



benelchi -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/18/2008 1:46:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephanos

Here are several verses that talk to a Mark of God.

“Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! “ You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. “These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. “ You shall bind them as a sign on your hand and they shall be as 2 frontals on your forehead. “ You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates." - Deuteronomy 6:4-9



And this one we know was a physical mark i.e. the Jewish people wore phylacteries (little boxes with very small scrolls of scripture inside) on the wrist and forehead (many still do today), and placed scrolls in mazuzahs on their doorposts based on their understanding of this passage. This probably isn't the best scripture to use if you want to "prove" the mark is only spiritual.



Diolectic -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/18/2008 2:28:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:

ORIGINAL: Diolectic

Note: Here is wisdom: Let the one having reason figure the number of the beast, for it is the lot of a man and its lot is chi xi stigma
Or as it looks like the phrase in Arabic "In the name of Allah" or "Bismalah".
It is best you google a pic of the greek number to see what I'm saying
I can not get greek letters on the phorum.

It is not 6,6,6

But it is 600 & 60 & 6
or 666

Therefore, since it is not 6,6,6, there must be a reason for the 600 & 60 & 6 ?.
It might be for the reason of making it look like the words "In the Name of Allah" or "Bismalah" in Arabic .

Something to think about.
Actually the Greek is 'exakosioi exekonta ex'

The Hebrew is 'shesh me'ot ve-shishim va-shesh', Arabic being very similar to Hebrew is
'sitta wa-situn wa-sitta mi'a'

Here is a link for the Aramaic

I am not sure where you got the Greek and Aramaic info that you did, but it simply wrong.
Check this out BEHOLD THE BEAST ISLAM, QURAN AND 666

And this video: Walid Shoebat - Mark of the Beast

Thes are very interesting.



benelchi -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/18/2008 3:09:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Diolectic

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:

ORIGINAL: Diolectic

Note: Here is wisdom: Let the one having reason figure the number of the beast, for it is the lot of a man and its lot is chi xi stigma
Or as it looks like the phrase in Arabic "In the name of Allah" or "Bismalah".
It is best you google a pic of the greek number to see what I'm saying
I can not get greek letters on the phorum.

It is not 6,6,6

But it is 600 & 60 & 6
or 666

Therefore, since it is not 6,6,6, there must be a reason for the 600 & 60 & 6 ?.
It might be for the reason of making it look like the words "In the Name of Allah" or "Bismalah" in Arabic .

Something to think about.
Actually the Greek is 'exakosioi exekonta ex'

The Hebrew is 'shesh me'ot ve-shishim va-shesh', Arabic being very similar to Hebrew is
'sitta wa-situn wa-sitta mi'a'

Here is a link for the Aramaic

I am not sure where you got the Greek and Aramaic info that you did, but it simply wrong.
Check this out BEHOLD THE BEAST ISLAM, QURAN AND 666

And this video: Walid Shoebat - Mark of the Beast

Thes are very interesting.


I don't buy the argument. The letters in the original manuscript are clearly Greek letters, and he actually rotates the Arabic 90 degrees and then does a mirror image flip to make it appear similar. In its normal printed state it is not even close. Additionally when this flip is made, only one of the three Greek letters even remotely matches.



Diolectic -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/18/2008 3:16:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:

ORIGINAL: Diolectic
quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:

ORIGINAL: Diolectic

Note: Here is wisdom: Let the one having reason figure the number of the beast, for it is the lot of a man and its lot is chi xi stigma
Or as it looks like the phrase in Arabic "In the name of Allah" or "Bismalah".
It is best you google a pic of the greek number to see what I'm saying
I can not get greek letters on the phorum.

It is not 6,6,6

But it is 600 & 60 & 6
or 666

Therefore, since it is not 6,6,6, there must be a reason for the 600 & 60 & 6 ?.
It might be for the reason of making it look like the words "In the Name of Allah" or "Bismalah" in Arabic .

Something to think about.
Actually the Greek is 'exakosioi exekonta ex'

The Hebrew is 'shesh me'ot ve-shishim va-shesh', Arabic being very similar to Hebrew is
'sitta wa-situn wa-sitta mi'a'

Here is a link for the Aramaic

I am not sure where you got the Greek and Aramaic info that you did, but it simply wrong.
Check this out BEHOLD THE BEAST ISLAM, QURAN AND 666

And this video: Walid Shoebat - Mark of the Beast

Thes are very interesting.
I don't buy the argument. The letters in the original manuscript are clearly Greek letters, and he actually rotates the Arabic 90 degrees and then does a mirror image flip to make it appear similar. In its normal printed state it is not even close. Additionally when this flip is made, only one of the three Greek letters even remotely matches.
What do you think of the video?



benelchi -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/18/2008 3:31:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Diolectic

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:

ORIGINAL: Diolectic
quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:

ORIGINAL: Diolectic

Note: Here is wisdom: Let the one having reason figure the number of the beast, for it is the lot of a man and its lot is chi xi stigma
Or as it looks like the phrase in Arabic "In the name of Allah" or "Bismalah".
It is best you google a pic of the greek number to see what I'm saying
I can not get greek letters on the phorum.

It is not 6,6,6

But it is 600 & 60 & 6
or 666

Therefore, since it is not 6,6,6, there must be a reason for the 600 & 60 & 6 ?.
It might be for the reason of making it look like the words "In the Name of Allah" or "Bismalah" in Arabic .

Something to think about.
Actually the Greek is 'exakosioi exekonta ex'

The Hebrew is 'shesh me'ot ve-shishim va-shesh', Arabic being very similar to Hebrew is
'sitta wa-situn wa-sitta mi'a'

Here is a link for the Aramaic

I am not sure where you got the Greek and Aramaic info that you did, but it simply wrong.
Check this out BEHOLD THE BEAST ISLAM, QURAN AND 666

And this video: Walid Shoebat - Mark of the Beast

Thes are very interesting.
I don't buy the argument. The letters in the original manuscript are clearly Greek letters, and he actually rotates the Arabic 90 degrees and then does a mirror image flip to make it appear similar. In its normal printed state it is not even close. Additionally when this flip is made, only one of the three Greek letters even remotely matches.
What do you think of the video?


I think the guy is an interesting and charismatic guy, but I think he like the other site stretches the evidence to make it fit his proposal. Again looking at the letters in the text, they are clearly Greek. In none of the early church writing was it the idea that these were not Greek letters ever raised. Even Irenious who argued against the 616 documents, never questioned the fact that 666 was Greek.



wreid77 -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/18/2008 4:17:59 PM)

Benelchi,

I love when you post here, I appreciate your knowledge of the Hebrew (I really wish I had that, maybe someday).

You stole all of the points I was going to make though.

I have to reiterate that the mark must be a choice (if it were physically forced on you, that wouldn't be a choice). Maybe that would be an argument for the spiritual mark viewpoint, but the mark of the beast cannot be simply spiritual. It must be a physical mark because the lack of the mark will prevent you from buying or selling.
The mark certainly has spiritual implications though.
Also, the passage from Eze was certainly a physical mark as was the use of phylacteries to fulfill the wearing of the word on your hand or on your forehead as in Deut.
I can't say that the mark placed by God is not physical but it will again certainly have spiritual implications.

I would add to the argument about spiritual mark vs physical mark a clear difference between God and satan. God is spirit and he looks for those who will worship Him in spirit and in truth. Satan (spiritual being he may be) very often seeks to attack us physically to encourage a spiritual response. So why then could the mark of God not be spiritual while the mark of the beast is physical.

My point is one being spiritual and the other physical is not a conflict that must be resolved.



MENU4EVR -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/18/2008 11:07:42 PM)

Um I don't think Tim Le hay was writing a missing chapter of the bible or claiming to. . Maybe he just thought of something that could happen. Truth is none of us really now absolutely how its all going to go down. The bottom line though I think is we have signs to watch for.



FurGodWurLivin -> RE: The mark of the beast (8/19/2008 5:11:39 AM)

Wow... I missed quite a bit of this one... One at a time...
quote:

So if someone FORCES you to take the implant. I mean beats you up, ties you to a chair so you can not move, and force a chip in you. Then that means you can not be saved? This is exactly why the mark of the beast is NOT POSSIBLY a chip.
This is also a purely hypothetical argument... I cannot find any reason why someone would do such a thing. I understand the reasoning, but I can't see it as a logical argument. People can't beat you up, tie you to a chair, and force you to register for the SSS on your 18th birdthday... but we do so because it is the law. No one has ever successfully been tied up, tortured, and forced to convert to Christianity. If it becomes the law, I think we will all be surprised at how many people line up for it voluntarily. Remembering that this all about following God or following Satan, it has to be a choice of the will. This does not exclude the possibility of a physical marking at all.
quote:

The other reason is that the bible is quite clear that BELIEVERS will ALSO be getting a MARK!!! This mark will ALSO be VISIBLE to everyone. So why is one mark a spiritual truth, and one is a physical object? The answer is again, these chip implants are NOT the mark of the beast (or of God for that matter) PERIOD!
Why is one physical and the other spiritual? Because of how the Bible says they are given. Revelation 7 has an angel saying that we will be marked by the angels (hence the "we" of chapter 7). Meanwhile, Chapter 13 says that the false prophet will cause all to recieve (Gr- didomi... literally, to give) a mark on their right hands or their foreheads. Notice that in Chapter 7 we are talking about spiritual beings giving a mark, and in Chapter 13 we are talking about a human (the false prophet) causing all "to give" a mark on their right hand. Because the sources of the marking are radically different, it is safe to say that the mark itself is radically different.
quote:

This doesn't mean that everybody will have to die. Most will be protected and kept by the power of God until the very end of the great tribulation when Jesus comes back to rapture and resurrect His saints of all ages. Revelations 12:6 and 14, "And the woman (The entire world of christian believers) fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (This again is the 3 1/2 year length of time of the great tribulation) And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wildertness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time from the face of the serpent."
Actually, most pre-mil scholars I have read have interpreted Chapter 12 that the Woman is actually Israel (hence the twelve stars on her head), and the Christians are the "rest of her offspring" that the dragon wanders off to make war with... so I would exhort you to use caution in this kind of reasoning.
quote:

Just a note, but not everyone is a proponent of a pre-tribulation Rapture. Some of us hold to a post-tribulation view of the rapture in a pre-millennial context.
**raises hand tenetively** Aye!
quote:

Um I don't think Tim Le hay was writing a missing chapter of the bible or claiming to. . Maybe he just thought of something that could happen. Truth is none of us really now absolutely how its all going to go down. The bottom line though I think is we have signs to watch for.
I believe the word you are looking for is "Strong opinioned". I don't believe that Tim LaHaye was trying to do anything other than produce a (in his mind) doctrinally correct novel. Other than literary criticism (which has more to do with picking Jerry B. Jenkins as a coauthor than anything else), I don't have much arguing to do with the books themselves. I don't agree with LaHaye's eschatology, and that is where my opinion will lie.

Adam



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