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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/11/2008 5:55:41 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
The problem here is that 95% of the time, an appeal has to do with a defendant's possible innocence.
Of course if ask, everyone in prison is innocent...
quote:
<Devil's advocate>
Why is it that no pro-Choice advocate argues that all babies should be aborted, but all pro-Life folks argue that no babies should be aborted?</Devil's Advocate>
Pro-choice equates to all possible abortions taking place...
quote:
But in all honesty, this discussion isn't about whether or not no murderers should be executed. It's merely about the economic cost of the death penalty, and more importantly, whether those costs are necessary or not. I believe the answer is that if we want the bill of rights- and don't want to live in an Orwellian world where it only applies to most people- the system requires all of the legal back-and-forth, and thus, all of the expense.
They are not necessary and the system has been skewed in such a manner to make it costly in order to derail it..
John
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/11/2008 5:57:08 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: triode
Hey John, hire out as a mercenary.
That wouldn't be lawful... God ordained the civil government to be His minister of wrath for those who do evil. And the bible is clear the just punishment for murder is death.
John
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/11/2008 10:45:18 PM
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rhippie
Posts: 665
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Rich The Hippie
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
quote:
quote:backrowbaptist
My bet - FAR more innocent lives have been lost at the hands of murderers released on legal technicalities or by shortened sentences than will ever be lost by executing the wrongly convicted.
quote:blessedinnyc
Ok, so let's sentence people to life without parole. There's fewer appeals and less risk that they will be released on a technicality.
Let me add to my point - I'd bet that there are more prison guards and inmates killed by murderers sentenced to life in prison than will be lost by executing the wrongly convicted.
quote:
<Devil's advocate>
Why is it that no pro-Choice advocate argues that all babies should be aborted, but all pro-Life folks argue that no babies should be aborted?</Devil's Advocate>
Because there is all the difference in the world between an innocent, un-born life and a convicted murderer!! If you can't see that, God help you, my brother. Plus, not all pro-lifer's say no babies should be aborted. Many would say it's justified if the life of the mother is in danger.[/quote
That has to be one of the sickest argument I've seen yet in support of executing someone that might be innocent!! You should be ashamed
_____________________________
Stand up for what's right....even if you're standing alone
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/12/2008 5:05:43 AM
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huangshan
Posts: 727
Joined: 8/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
"A bunch of lawyers" is in large part what keeps our judicial system going.
I'm not sure what you are thinking is a viable alternative.
Huanshan,
the question is, if there was undeniable evidence about a person being a cold-blooded murderer, would you be for their execution?
I ask this question, because you are arguing the subject's possible innocence, and I will gladly take this up the notch and remove the variable.
I'm one of those crazy anti-death penalty guys who thinks it's morally unacceptable in all cases to have a retribution-based justice system. I could go into my thought processes here on the specifics of my position, but I'd rather not as I understand that my position is politically un-viable in the United States. Instead, I am content to argue the easier fights of costs of the death penalty, and the necessary skepticism we should have of government efficacy especially in cases where the life of an individual is on the line.
It is troubling to me that the same people who tend to skew towards nigh-libertarian skepticism of governmental institutions would trust an institution of that same government to administer justice so effectively as to validate its taking of human life.
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/12/2008 5:09:31 AM
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huangshan
Posts: 727
Joined: 8/6/2008
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
"A bunch of lawyers" is in large part what keeps our judicial system going.
I'm not sure what you are thinking is a viable alternative.
They keep the circus going not the judicial system going...
It's only not a viable alternative for those who think it's ok for one to appeal their conviction on grounds the sky is blue.
John
I'm afraid I don't understand what that means.
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/12/2008 7:05:57 AM
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huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
"A bunch of lawyers" is in large part what keeps our judicial system going.
I'm not sure what you are thinking is a viable alternative.
Huanshan,
the question is, if there was undeniable evidence about a person being a cold-blooded murderer, would you be for their execution?
I ask this question, because you are arguing the subject's possible innocence, and I will gladly take this up the notch and remove the variable.
I'm one of those crazy anti-death penalty guys who thinks it's morally unacceptable in all cases to have a retribution-based justice system. I could go into my thought processes here on the specifics of my position, but I'd rather not as I understand that my position is politically un-viable in the United States. Instead, I am content to argue the easier fights of costs of the death penalty, and the necessary skepticism we should have of government efficacy especially in cases where the life of an individual is on the line.
It is troubling to me that the same people who tend to skew towards nigh-libertarian skepticism of governmental institutions would trust an institution of that same government to administer justice so effectively as to validate its taking of human life.
I understand where you are coming from. I am in agreement that there needs to be a thorough appeals process, but there are stupid loopholes and all sorts of junk that just delay the whole process. If we can make a case end in a year (guilty or innocent), then we should strive for that, and that is with a quick appeals process. The legal system is a mockery because of all the years put into only one case.
and as far as I am concerned, we don't need to give the lethal injection. We should save money by hanging.
of course, I am for the death penalty. I would never want to see a John Wayne Gasey break out of prison. If you argue the probabilities of a prison break, well then, I understand already. It's just the principle of the matter. Justice needs to be complete, and as long as murderers are alive in prison, families still can not rest. Oh, and the death penalty has been in existance all the way since Genesis (from God), then proclaimed as law (in Exodus). Why are we waiting to the latter 20th century to argue about it???
_____________________________
"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/12/2008 9:33:13 AM
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triode
Posts: 46
Joined: 8/4/2008
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John,
I didn't know God needed any help. Is it only in the good ol' US of A that God needs this help, or is it everywhere? If no other country in the civilized world executes people, does that mean they are not doing God's will?
< Message edited by triode -- 8/12/2008 10:26:30 AM >
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/12/2008 10:19:18 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1960
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
Let me add to my point - I'd bet that there are more prison guards and inmates killed by murderers sentenced to life in prison than will be lost by executing the wrongly convicted.
That's because of the system we have. 13 people in Illinois were released from death row after the vast majority were clearly and incontrovertably shown to be innocent of the crimes they were convicted of. One guy was being held by police when the crime he was convicted of was committed! Talk about an airtight alibi that didn't make it to the jury...
I doubt that death row inmates have killed that many prison guards in IL in the past 30 years. In fact, I doubt that death row inmates throughout the country have killed that many.
quote:
Because there is all the difference in the world between an innocent, un-born life and a convicted murderer!! If you can't see that, God help you, my brother. Plus, not all pro-lifer's say no babies should be aborted. Many would say it's justified if the life of the mother is in danger.
This is a variation on the argument that it's inconsistent to be pro-life and pro-DP. It's totally consistent. Pro-lifers value INNOCENT life, like the life of the VICTIM. To advocate keeping alive a person who intentionally, with malice a-fore-thought, takes another life devalues the VICTIM'S life.
I'm not arguing that it's inconsistent to be pro-Life and pro-DP. I'm arguing that it's inconsistent to call yourself pro-life and have a callous attitude about mistakes in our justice system that can result in the death penalty for innocent people.
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 8/12/2008 10:26:50 AM >
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/12/2008 12:14:55 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: triode
John,
I didn't know God needed any help.
Other than yourself nobody said God needed help so I guess you need to take that up with, yourself...
Though the bible says what God ordained... If you wish to talk about that let me know...
John
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/12/2008 12:20:14 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
I'm not arguing that it's inconsistent to be pro-Life and pro-DP. I'm arguing that it's inconsistent to call yourself pro-life and have a callous attitude about mistakes in our justice system that can result in the death penalty for innocent people.
I think it's for more inconsistent for those who support the 3500 murdered unborn children daily to make a fuss over... Just how many innocent people are put to death daily? Makes you wonder why they are against it the idea itself in the first place...
John
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/12/2008 1:09:00 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1960
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
I'm not arguing that it's inconsistent to be pro-Life and pro-DP. I'm arguing that it's inconsistent to call yourself pro-life and have a callous attitude about mistakes in our justice system that can result in the death penalty for innocent people.
I think it's for more inconsistent for those who support the 3500 murdered unborn children daily to make a fuss over... Just how many innocent people are put to death daily? Makes you wonder why they are against it the idea itself in the first place...
John
It's very consistent, actually. I support the current judicial interpretation of the Bill of Rights.
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/12/2008 1:35:10 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7828
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
It's very consistent, actually. I support the current judicial interpretation of the Bill of Rights.
And if the interpretation changed, would you continue to support it?
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/12/2008 1:37:20 PM
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triode
Posts: 46
Joined: 8/4/2008
Status: offline
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[quote:
to be His minister of wrath
That makes it sound like he needs help. And I didn't say that.
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/12/2008 1:51:20 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1960
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
It's very consistent, actually. I support the current judicial interpretation of the Bill of Rights.
And if the interpretation changed, would you continue to support it?
It depends. If they take away my right to a trial by a jury of my peers, I probably won't.
If they take away the right to get an abortion, meh.
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/12/2008 2:05:29 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 380
Joined: 6/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
Let me add to my point - I'd bet that there are more prison guards and inmates killed by murderers sentenced to life in prison than will be lost by executing the wrongly convicted.
I doubt that death row inmates have killed that many prison guards in IL in the past 30 years. In fact, I doubt that death row inmates throughout the country have killed that many.
I said 'murderers sentenced to life in prison'. Death row inmates have been sentenced to death. You do know the differnce, yes?
quote:
I'm not arguing that it's inconsistent to be pro-Life and pro-DP. I'm arguing that it's inconsistent to call yourself pro-life and have a callous attitude about mistakes in our justice system that can result in the death penalty for innocent people.
I'm not callous to mistakes resulting in the death penalty for innocent people. That would be tragic. I'm saying that those cases are too small a percentage of cases as to justify abandoning the death penalty. That would be, and has been, a much bigger tragedy.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/12/2008 2:37:05 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1960
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
I said 'murderers sentenced to life in prison'. Death row inmates have been sentenced to death. You do know the differnce, yes?
So then you agree that the current system is ok.
quote:
I'm not callous to mistakes resulting in the death penalty for innocent people. That would be tragic. I'm saying that those cases are too small a percentage of cases as to justify abandoning the death penalty. That would be, and has been, a much bigger tragedy.
Some folks want to streamline the process of executing people to reduce the number of appeals they are entitled to (despite the fact that the guy who was released after information surfaced that he was in police custody when the crime was committed was released nearly 10 years after his trial). I take it you disagree with this move?
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/12/2008 3:12:38 PM
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huangshan
Posts: 727
Joined: 8/6/2008
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
I'm not callous to mistakes resulting in the death penalty for innocent people. That would be tragic. I'm saying that those cases are too small a percentage of cases as to justify abandoning the death penalty. That would be, and has been, a much bigger tragedy.
It sounds to me like you are saying that it is more important to kill criminals than it is to be sure we aren't killing the falsely accused.
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/12/2008 3:46:31 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: triode
That makes it sound like he needs help.
This is what is says... If you yank from the following that this is due in part to God needing help that it your problem...
Romans 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
quote:
And I didn't say that.
You said:
I didn't know God needed any help.
John
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/12/2008 3:49:50 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
I'm not arguing that it's inconsistent to be pro-Life and pro-DP. I'm arguing that it's inconsistent to call yourself pro-life and have a callous attitude about mistakes in our justice system that can result in the death penalty for innocent people.
I think it's for more inconsistent for those who support the 3500 murdered unborn children daily to make a fuss over... Just how many innocent people are put to death daily? Makes you wonder why they are against it the idea itself in the first place...
John
It's very consistent, actually. I support the current judicial interpretation of the Bill of Rights.
I am not sure if that will suffice on Judgment Day...
John
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/12/2008 4:34:42 PM
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triode
Posts: 46
Joined: 8/4/2008
Status: offline
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So which world leaders has God put in power? All of them? Just some? Any of the current ones? If you say God instituted government so we can rule ourselves, fine. Otherwise, you're going to have to explain to me how to determine who has been appointed by God and who has not. And how do I vote? I'd hate to vote wrong.
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/12/2008 4:41:14 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 380
Joined: 6/7/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
I said 'murderers sentenced to life in prison'. Death row inmates have been sentenced to death. You do know the differnce, yes?
So then you agree that the current system is ok.
Flawed, imperfect, in need of streamlining in the appeals process, but ok. Certainly better than a system without the death penalty.
quote:
Some folks want to streamline the process of executing people to reduce the number of appeals they are entitled to (despite the fact that the guy who was released after information surfaced that he was in police custody when the crime was committed was released nearly 10 years after his trial). I take it you disagree with this move?
No, I'd say I agree with it, if you stated it the way you intended.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/12/2008 4:47:36 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 380
Joined: 6/7/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
I'm not callous to mistakes resulting in the death penalty for innocent people. That would be tragic. I'm saying that those cases are too small a percentage of cases as to justify abandoning the death penalty. That would be, and has been, a much bigger tragedy.
It sounds to me like you are saying that it is more important to kill criminals than it is to be sure we aren't killing the falsely accused.
No, it sounds like you're spinning my comments. It's more important to do justice and execute convicted first-degree murderers expiditiously than it is to keep them alive while we vacilate and allow them to manipulate the appeals sytem, or worse, eliminate the death penalty all together, just because theoretically someone falsely accused might be executed.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/12/2008 5:32:11 PM
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triode
Posts: 46
Joined: 8/4/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
It sounds to me like you are saying that it is more important to kill criminals than it is to be sure we aren't killing the falsely accused.
It sounds that way to me, too.
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/12/2008 6:09:46 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1960
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
No, I'd say I agree with it, if you stated it the way you intended.
So then you believe we should reduce the safeguards in place to keep innocent people from being executed, even if it means many of those 13 people in IL would have never had a chance?
I actually think this kind of attitude isn't all that helpful for the long-term cause of the death penalty. If 5% of the country had this view that it's ok to execute innocent people if we're saving time and money, the other 95% would ensure it was banned tomorrow. Just out of pure pragmatism, it makes sense to ensure that the system is fair and doesn't execute innocent people.
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/12/2008 6:41:59 PM
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backrowbaptist
Posts: 380
Joined: 6/7/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: backrowbaptist
No, I'd say I agree with it, if you stated it the way you intended.
So then you believe we should reduce the safeguards in place to keep innocent people from being executed, even if it means many of those 13 people in IL would have never had a chance?
I actually think this kind of attitude isn't all that helpful for the long-term cause of the death penalty. If 5% of the country had this view that it's ok to execute innocent people if we're saving time and money, the other 95% would ensure it was banned tomorrow. Just out of pure pragmatism, it makes sense to ensure that the system is fair and doesn't execute innocent people.
Who ever said it's okay to execute an innocent person? WHO? That would be 0% of the population.
You're building a straw man argument to justify the current abuses of the appeals process. And you're wrong, those 13 people did have a chance. It's called a fair trial. If mistakes were made, it was in the trial phase, not the sentencing. That has no bearing on the merits of the death penalty.
The DP is a just and Biblical punishment for deliberate, pre-meditated murderers. The innability to separate them from ordinary criminals shows the shallowness of your arguments.
_____________________________
Any of this gettin' through to you, son?
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