RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National

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huangshan -> RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National (8/7/2008 2:30:12 PM)
Well, if you want to be at least reasonably certain that you're not executing an innocent person, and you believe people who work in a courtroom and prison facilities should be compensated for their labor, it necessarily is going to cost more than if you feel otherwise.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National (8/7/2008 3:24:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: huangshan Well, if you want to be at least reasonably certain that you're not executing an innocent person, and you believe people who work in a courtroom and prison facilities should be compensated for their labor, it necessarily is going to cost more than if you feel otherwise. More people walk free because the system favors the accuse... The reason for it costing more are beyond reasoning. It doesn't have to cost what it does to justly put someone to death. John

huangshan -> RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National (8/7/2008 3:32:05 PM)
Well sure we could make it easier to kill the falsely accused, but I'm not sure that I'd call the desire to not have innocent blood on our hands "beyond reasoning".

bluestone -> RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National (8/7/2008 3:33:07 PM)
We need to execute within one year of conviction. Appeals limited to one case review within nine months of conviction. Execute with a guillotine or hanging, or firing squad. Lot more cost effective then electric chairs, gas, or lethal injections.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National (8/7/2008 3:41:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: huangshan Well sure we could make it easier to kill the falsely accused, but I'm not sure that I'd call the desire to not have innocent blood on our hands "beyond reasoning". The system as it stands goes beyond what is reasonable... John

bluestone -> RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National (8/7/2008 3:46:07 PM)
Are there any statistics available on the ratio of false convictions (cases later found out to be false) for death penalty cases vs. True convictions?

rhippie -> RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National (8/7/2008 10:25:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Stephanos quote: ORIGINAL: huangshan We could just not execute people and save a lot of money. FYI, incarcerating a person for life (say 50 years on average after arrest and conviction) costs ALOT more than executing someone. And this INCLUDES all the legal fees on both sides. FYI since it costs approx $1.5 - $2 mill to execute someone and only costs approx $40K per year to lock 'em up it ios by far cheaper to lock 'em up (unless you think they will live more than 40 - 45 years in jail in which case it's a wash)

rhippie -> RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National (8/7/2008 10:28:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc quote: ORIGINAL: Stephanos quote: ORIGINAL: huangshan We could just not execute people and save a lot of money. FYI, incarcerating a person for life (say 50 years on average after arrest and conviction) costs ALOT more than executing someone. And this INCLUDES all the legal fees on both sides. It reallly comes down to the present value of keeping someone incarcerated from 15 years from now until the end of his natural life. Let's assume that it costs $50K/year PERMANENTLY (IE: the guy never dies) starting in 15 years to keep such a person in jail. With a 5% annual discount rate, you could pay for that by setting aside $480K today. Texas, one of the most efficient DP states in the world, says it costs them well over $500K in legal costs alone to give someone the needle. The costs of incarcerating someone could further be mitigated if that person were required to work if he wanted to eat. Many convicts work making license plates, building roads, and other things that create economic value. Most studies suggest that states spend anywhere from an extra $700K/execution in Kansas to $2.2 million in North Carolina to $3.2 million/execution in Florida. Info here: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108 It doesn't have to cost more, nor should it... John But the reality is that it does cost more

rhippie -> RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National (8/7/2008 10:31:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: bluestone Are there any statistics available on the ratio of false convictions (cases later found out to be false) for death penalty cases vs. True convictions? No because once someone is executed the government will stonewall any effort to prove they were innocent. There have been numerous cases where the government refused to allow the release of materials after the execution had occurred and since there can be no appeal once the death penalty has been enforced there is no legal standing to pursue against the government.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National (8/8/2008 11:01:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rhippie quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc quote: ORIGINAL: Stephanos quote: ORIGINAL: huangshan We could just not execute people and save a lot of money. FYI, incarcerating a person for life (say 50 years on average after arrest and conviction) costs ALOT more than executing someone. And this INCLUDES all the legal fees on both sides. It reallly comes down to the present value of keeping someone incarcerated from 15 years from now until the end of his natural life. Let's assume that it costs $50K/year PERMANENTLY (IE: the guy never dies) starting in 15 years to keep such a person in jail. With a 5% annual discount rate, you could pay for that by setting aside $480K today. Texas, one of the most efficient DP states in the world, says it costs them well over $500K in legal costs alone to give someone the needle. The costs of incarcerating someone could further be mitigated if that person were required to work if he wanted to eat. Many convicts work making license plates, building roads, and other things that create economic value. Most studies suggest that states spend anywhere from an extra $700K/execution in Kansas to $2.2 million in North Carolina to $3.2 million/execution in Florida. Info here: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108 It doesn't have to cost more, nor should it... John But the reality is that it does cost more Part of the reason it's the reality is because people work the system to make to make it cost more because they are against it... John

huangshan -> RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National (8/8/2008 2:46:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe Part of the reason it's the reality is because people work the system to make to make it cost more because they are against it... John Against... ...reckless endangerment of the falsely accused?

blessedinnyc -> RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National (8/8/2008 4:02:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: huangshan Well, if you want to be at least reasonably certain that you're not executing an innocent person, and you believe people who work in a courtroom and prison facilities should be compensated for their labor, it necessarily is going to cost more than if you feel otherwise. More people walk free because the system favors the accuse... The reason for it costing more are beyond reasoning. It doesn't have to cost what it does to justly put someone to death. John Actually, it's very simple, and that's that people are entitled to due process. And they're going to get everyone they know to hire lawyers to appeal, appeal, and appeal. And a frightening number of times, these convictions get overturned. In IL, one man was freed from death row after it was discovered that the Chicago PD tortured him into a confession. quote: We need to execute within one year of conviction. Appeals limited to one case review within nine months of conviction. Execute with a guillotine or hanging, or firing squad. Lot more cost effective then electric chairs, gas, or lethal injections. Often the first appeals court makes mistakes. And a lot of the time, there's a lot of hemming and hawing about whether DNA evidence showing the murder was committed by someone else is "exculpatory." Texas has developed the most efficient constitutional system for executing people. They have two state supreme courts, and it still almost always takes more than five years from conviction to execution.

blessedinnyc -> RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National (8/8/2008 4:08:33 PM)
I think that just about everyone on this board would probably support the current process we have now if they ever found themselves falsely accused. The reason the death penalty is so expensive is very simple: -There is a constitutional right to due process. -People who want to delay their sentence use due process to slow things down. -If people think this is unfair or unreasonable, the only solution would be to deny due process to everyone. And life has a way of making sure that people who are against due process find themselves falsely accused.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National (8/8/2008 6:04:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc Actually, it's very simple, and that's that people are entitled to due process. What goes on isn't due process... It's playing games with the legal system... John

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National (8/8/2008 6:07:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc The reason the death penalty is so expensive is very simple: People don't like paying the consequences for their actions... John

FurGodWurLivin -> RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National (8/9/2008 4:03:34 AM)
As a friend of mine once put it..... quote: Depending on the "hick" status of the state, executions could be done for a quarter each... that should be enough to buy a .45 hollow-point round, you think? My breaking point is that the appeals process is constantly abused. Right now, if someone is convicted of capital murder, an appeal is almost automatic. It's kind of hard to not get jaded about a system that convicts someone of capital murder, and then makes everybody wait around for 15-30 years until a couple justices in the various appellate courts change to more "soft hearted" individuals, with a hope of getting the sentence reduced to life in prison. The families do deserve closure to their ordeal... but I'm going to balance this statement with another... Executing a murderer doesn't bring back the victim... it just prevents there being more victims of a single perpetrater. Adam

earthless -> RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National (8/9/2008 9:16:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin it just prevents there being more victims of a single perpetrater. Adam And that is more than enough for some of us that do not want to see anymore innocent people murdered.

blessedinnyc -> RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National (8/9/2008 12:47:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc Actually, it's very simple, and that's that people are entitled to due process. What goes on isn't due process... It's playing games with the legal system... John I guess that you will have to take that up with the SCOTUS. Frankly, I am glad that a bunch of experienced judges get to decide what due process is.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National (8/11/2008 1:20:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc Actually, it's very simple, and that's that people are entitled to due process. What goes on isn't due process... It's playing games with the legal system... John I guess that you will have to take that up with the SCOTUS. Frankly, I am glad that a bunch of experienced judges get to decide what due process is. Your glad a bunch of lawyers make a mockery of the judicial system and the Supreme Court gives their stamp of approval? Wonderful... John

huangshan -> RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National (8/11/2008 1:29:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc I guess that you will have to take that up with the SCOTUS. Frankly, I am glad that a bunch of experienced judges get to decide what due process is. Your glad a bunch of lawyers make a mockery of the judicial system and the Supreme Court gives their stamp of approval? Wonderful... John "A bunch of lawyers" is in large part what keeps our judicial system going. I'm not sure what you are thinking is a viable alternative.

huskarine -> RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National (8/11/2008 1:48:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: huangshan quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc I guess that you will have to take that up with the SCOTUS. Frankly, I am glad that a bunch of experienced judges get to decide what due process is. Your glad a bunch of lawyers make a mockery of the judicial system and the Supreme Court gives their stamp of approval? Wonderful... John "A bunch of lawyers" is in large part what keeps our judicial system going. I'm not sure what you are thinking is a viable alternative. Huanshan, the question is, if there was undeniable evidence about a person being a cold-blooded murderer, would you be for their execution? I ask this question, because you are arguing the subject's possible innocence, and I will gladly take this up the notch and remove the variable.

backrowbaptist -> RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National (8/11/2008 2:47:18 PM)
quote: Are there any statistics available on the ratio of false convictions (cases later found out to be false) for death penalty cases vs. True convictions? My bet - FAR more innocent lives have been lost at the hands of murderers released on legal technicalities or by shortened sentences than will ever be lost by executing the wrongly convicted. The thing about opponents of capital punishment is that they belive NO murderer should be executed. Because a few instances of innocent people possibly being executed, they reason that all capital punishment is wrong. Hence, an all-out effort is made to keep a Jose Medellin or a Tookie Williams or a Hurricane Carter alive, and Charles Manson's evil heart is still beating. No reasonable capital punishment advocate says ALL murderers should be executed, yet every capital punishment opponenet says NO murderer, no matter how terrible, should be executed. Why is that?

blessedinnyc -> RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National (8/11/2008 3:52:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: huskarine Huanshan, the question is, if there was undeniable evidence about a person being a cold-blooded murderer, would you be for their execution? Well, if a person's guilty, I'm not sure how many people would oppose their execution. But the problem is that because we have the occasional dishonest DA, exculpatory evidence often gets covered up. Sure, there might be DNA evidence that links the defendant to the crime, but if there's evidence that shows that the victim shook hands with the defendant and the defendant was on the other side of town when the murder occurred, that undeniable evidence suddenly looks pretty deniable. Oftentimes, witnesses can get people mixed up. If the witness couldn't pick the defendant out of a lineup, and that gets missed at trial, the witness's testimony doesn't look quite as undeniable as it used to. quote: I ask this question, because you are arguing the subject's possible innocence, and I will gladly take this up the notch and remove the variable. The problem here is that 95% of the time, an appeal has to do with a defendant's possible innocence. quote: My bet - FAR more innocent lives have been lost at the hands of murderers released on legal technicalities or by shortened sentences than will ever be lost by executing the wrongly convicted. Ok, so let's sentence people to life without parole. There's fewer appeals and less risk that they will be released on a technicality. quote: No reasonable capital punishment advocate says ALL murderers should be executed, yet every capital punishment opponenet says NO murderer, no matter how terrible, should be executed. Why is that? <Devil's advocate> Why is it that no pro-Choice advocate argues that all babies should be aborted, but all pro-Life folks argue that no babies should be aborted?</Devil's Advocate> But in all honesty, this discussion isn't about whether or not no murderers should be executed. It's merely about the economic cost of the death penalty, and more importantly, whether those costs are necessary or not. I believe the answer is that if we want the bill of rights- and don't want to live in an Orwellian world where it only applies to most people- the system requires all of the legal back-and-forth, and thus, all of the expense.

backrowbaptist -> RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National (8/11/2008 4:39:27 PM)
quote: quote:backrowbaptist My bet - FAR more innocent lives have been lost at the hands of murderers released on legal technicalities or by shortened sentences than will ever be lost by executing the wrongly convicted. quote:blessedinnyc Ok, so let's sentence people to life without parole. There's fewer appeals and less risk that they will be released on a technicality. Let me add to my point - I'd bet that there are more prison guards and inmates killed by murderers sentenced to life in prison than will be lost by executing the wrongly convicted. quote: <Devil's advocate> Why is it that no pro-Choice advocate argues that all babies should be aborted, but all pro-Life folks argue that no babies should be aborted?</Devil's Advocate> Because there is all the difference in the world between an innocent, un-born life and a convicted murderer!! If you can't see that, God help you, my brother. Plus, not all pro-lifer's say no babies should be aborted. Many would say it's justified if the life of the mother is in danger. This is a variation on the argument that it's inconsistent to be pro-life and pro-DP. It's totally consistent. Pro-lifers value INNOCENT life, like the life of the VICTIM. To advocate keeping alive a person who intentionally, with malice a-fore-thought, takes another life devalues the VICTIM'S life.

SovereignIsHe -> RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National (8/11/2008 5:48:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: huangshan quote: ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe quote: ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc I guess that you will have to take that up with the SCOTUS. Frankly, I am glad that a bunch of experienced judges get to decide what due process is. Your glad a bunch of lawyers make a mockery of the judicial system and the Supreme Court gives their stamp of approval? Wonderful... John "A bunch of lawyers" is in large part what keeps our judicial system going. I'm not sure what you are thinking is a viable alternative. They keep the circus going not the judicial system going... It's only not a viable alternative for those who think it's ok for one to appeal their conviction on grounds the sky is blue. John

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