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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/6/2008 11:01:58 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1573
Joined: 3/30/2008
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That was a bad crime.
As the mother of 4 daughters, I cringe thinking about what those girls went thru. What the family is going thru.
But as a Christian, I oppose the Death Penalty.
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/6/2008 11:50:57 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1672
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
That was a bad crime.
As the mother of 4 daughters, I cringe thinking about what those girls went thru. What the family is going thru.
But as a Christian, I oppose the Death Penalty.
While I think these murders were terrible- and are worthy of the death penalty- there's really two major questions here:
1.) What does paying back death for death say about us as a country?
2.) How does this affect our relationship with Mexico, who claimed that the guy didn't have access to consular services, wanted him to be deported so he could serve a sentence of life without parole in Texas, and even got the White House to side with Mexico over Texas?
I think most Texans, and most folks on this forum, aren't going to change their minds on Question #1, but you'd really think that we could have been a little more pragmatic when it came to Question #2.
I would finally add that one's view on the death penalty ultimately comes down to one's interpretation of the Bible, and many Christians have different views on this. My view (anti-DP) has always been that Jesus calls us to have mercy, and may have even demonstrated this with the woman caught in adultery. However, God also proscribes the death penalty for various crimes and even carries it out in the early church with Ananias, so everybody's really going to have their own opinion on it.
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/6/2008 11:53:07 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3745
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
That was a bad crime.
As the mother of 4 daughters, I cringe thinking about what those girls went thru. What the family is going thru.
But as a Christian, I oppose the Death Penalty.
Thankfully God doesn't and His minister of wrath(the civil government He ordained) was rightfully the sword and dealt with the person according to the word of God...
John
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/7/2008 12:23:38 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3745
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
1.) What does paying back death for death say about us as a country?
On what grounds are you equating the state justly putting someone to death(doing what God ordained them it to do) with his crime/sin of murder?
quote:
2.) How does this affect our relationship with Mexico, who claimed that the guy didn't have access to consular services, wanted him to be deported so he could serve a sentence of life without parole in Texas, and even got the White House to side with Mexico over Texas?
If our relationship with Mexico hinges on the likes of Jose Medellin rightly being put to death we are dire straights...
quote:
My view (anti-DP) has always been that Jesus calls us to have mercy, and may have even demonstrated this with the woman caught in adultery.
The woman was brought forth not according to the law, not for the sake of the law or justice... Further she was brought forth to accuse Him... As well it was against the law for Jews to administer the death penalty given they were under Roman rule...
Jesus' call for mercy in the bible doesn't remove the fact that He ordained the civil government to be His minister of wrath for those who do evil...
John
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/7/2008 4:21:20 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 1150
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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Quite simply, your rights are spelled out on your passport... When you are in a foreign country, you are subject to the laws of that nation. Now, the Treaty referrenced is the Vienna Convention that specifically allows foreign nationals access to the Embassy's consular services. However, if you desire to exercise that right, you have to ask for it. According to the court and the Prosecuter's office, the person in question never asked for access to his embassy before incarceration, before the trial, or during the sentancing. At that point, you have forfeit your right to consult with your nation's Consul, because the trial is over and you have been convicted. Basically, Medellin's lawyers were trying to get the entire conviction thrown out because of the technicality. However, based on the evidence that was presented in the case, the Embassy would have had to threaten to declare war to have gotten him a deal.
The lesson to be learned? When you are in a foreign country, (A) don't break the law, (B) know your limited rights as a foreign national, and (C) don't PO the wrong people. That's why that American kid got caned in the Philippines... he broke the law of the land, so he served the penalty for it. A lot of people in America didn't like it, but it was legally the right thing to do.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/7/2008 6:55:01 AM
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Dubya
Posts: 520
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Quite simply, your rights are spelled out on your passport... When you are in a foreign country, you are subject to the laws of that nation. Now, the Treaty referrenced is the Vienna Convention that specifically allows foreign nationals access to the Embassy's consular services. However, if you desire to exercise that right, you have to ask for it. According to the court and the Prosecuter's office, the person in question never asked for access to his embassy before incarceration, before the trial, or during the sentancing.
In fact, this issue did not even come up until 4 years after he was sentenced!
This man was part of a gang, others still awaiting execution, who brutally raped, tortured, and killed two young girls. This man got exactly what he deserved. The execution was mercifully delayed for years. If Christians are so upset about the death penalty, get involved in prison ministry and bring the Gospel to the inmates. I don't know if that happened for this man but if he confessed Christ as his savior you can rest assured that he is in heaven. Regardless of his spiritual condition, he still had to pay the price for his crime. His last words exressed regret for the pain he caused the families of the young girls.
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/7/2008 8:44:26 AM
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stamper_ben
Posts: 10813
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lone Star State
Status: offline
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The families of the girls can now have some closure. It's a shame that it took 15 years for that.
_____________________________
We will be known as His by the love we show one another.
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/7/2008 9:12:38 AM
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freakofnature
Posts: 739
Joined: 1/17/2008
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I will care possibly a little bit more as soon as the government releases agents Compeon and Ramos:
ABC Story
act of congress
I hope many have heard the story of these two border agents, if not please google them.
Otherwise, the carrying out of a sentence handed down by the jury of our peers is not something that can be taken lightly especially in the death penalty cases. But in any case, it was decided by the people of the state of Texas, if this would have happend in NY or California or any other state, there may have been a different outcome, but this is a matter for the people of Texas and I support their right to choose.
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/7/2008 9:22:47 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5024
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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Sure took long enough time to carry out the will of the people of Texas.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/7/2008 10:45:27 AM
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freakofnature
Posts: 739
Joined: 1/17/2008
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UH-OH. We are in trouble with the Mexican government.
Way to go... TEXAS!
(in efforts to comply with full disclosure, as I am sure some of you know, my wife is a Mexican. AND SHE SAID TO FRY THE IDIOT! So the Mexican Government doesn't speak for all Mexico!)
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/7/2008 10:57:08 AM
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freakofnature
Posts: 739
Joined: 1/17/2008
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Just reading up on this story here:
Border Patrol Troubles
So we execute a criminal/rapist/murderer but Mexico insists on sending it's military onto our soil AND! AND! hold our agents at gunpoint! Where is the outrage on the other side. God please protect our border agents
from the report:
It was unclear what the soldiers were doing in the United States, but U.S. law enforcement authorities have long said that current and former Mexican military personnel have been hired to protect drug and migrant smugglers.
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/7/2008 11:05:51 AM
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revbob4God
Posts: 587
Joined: 7/25/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
So we execute a criminal/rapist/murderer but Mexico insists on sending it's military onto our soil AND! AND! hold our agents at gunpoint! Where is the outrage on the other side. God please protect our border agents
It appears our brothers in Christ from South of the border appear to have forgotten that pertinent lesson about the crucial nature of memory and that neat little place that started with an A.
RC didn't we call it the Alamo?
_____________________________
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I the Lord; and none else.
Isaiah 45:18
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/7/2008 11:57:55 AM
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cow451
Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/6/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
Mexican National Jose Medellin Executed
Medellin's lawyers claim that Americans will now be in danger travelling and living abroad because of this. What do you think?
Defense atty swinging for the fence trailing 12-0. Americans are no more or less in danger than before. We are sometimes very naive about our status in another country and think we have the same rights as in the US.
_____________________________
Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/7/2008 12:46:44 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5024
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
Mexican National Jose Medellin Executed
Medellin's lawyers claim that Americans will now be in danger travelling and living abroad because of this. What do you think?
Defense atty swinging for the fence trailing 12-0. Americans are no more or less in danger than before. We are sometimes very naive about our status in another country and think we have the same rights as in the US.
An American getting crossed up with the authorities in Mexico has always been a more than traumatic event. Mexico never considers what the USA mith "Think".
It does seem that Obama wants us in the States to live our lives with the permission of foriengners, but he can stuff it as far as I am concerned.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/7/2008 1:07:35 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1240
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Quite simply, your rights are spelled out on your passport... When you are in a foreign country, you are subject to the laws of that nation. Now, the Treaty referrenced is the Vienna Convention that specifically allows foreign nationals access to the Embassy's consular services. However, if you desire to exercise that right, you have to ask for it. According to the court and the Prosecuter's office, the person in question never asked for access to his embassy before incarceration, before the trial, or during the sentancing.
In fact, this issue did not even come up until 4 years after he was sentenced!
This man was part of a gang, others still awaiting execution, who brutally raped, tortured, and killed two young girls. This man got exactly what he deserved. The execution was mercifully delayed for years. If Christians are so upset about the death penalty, get involved in prison ministry and bring the Gospel to the inmates. I don't know if that happened for this man but if he confessed Christ as his savior you can rest assured that he is in heaven. Regardless of his spiritual condition, he still had to pay the price for his crime. His last words exressed regret for the pain he caused the families of the young girls.
Regarding the Death Penalty....
Starting today....Texas could simply STOP executions (or at least STOP sending people to "Death Row")
If only people would STOP committing the offenses that are CLEARLY identified as "Capital Offenses".....then, there would be no "death row"....no more executions.
The execution takes so long, because, unlike many other countries, "Due Process" and appeals DOES take a very long time to work themselves out.
The "Appeals" process in Capital Murder cases are "automatic".....there's almost no getting around the process....that MUST be undertaken to ensure that that "due process" was legally followed....
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/7/2008 1:18:39 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5024
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kernsfamily
Starting today....Texas could simply STOP executions (or at least STOP sending people to "Death Row")
If only people would STOP committing the offenses that are CLEARLY identified as "Capital Offenses".....then, there would be no "death row"....no more executions.
Much too sensible of an approach, the libs will never comprehend it.
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/7/2008 1:50:17 PM
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huangshan
Posts: 287
Joined: 8/6/2008
Status: online
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We could just not execute people and save a lot of money.
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/7/2008 1:57:51 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1153
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
We could just not execute people and save a lot of money.
FYI, incarcerating a person for life (say 50 years on average after arrest and conviction) costs ALOT more than executing someone. And this INCLUDES all the legal fees on both sides.
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/7/2008 1:59:01 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3745
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
We could just not execute people and save a lot of money.
I'll donate rope, bullets, whatever...
John
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/7/2008 2:08:04 PM
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huangshan
Posts: 287
Joined: 8/6/2008
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
FYI, incarcerating a person for life (say 50 years on average after arrest and conviction) costs ALOT more than executing someone. And this INCLUDES all the legal fees on both sides.
This is contrary to everything I have heard and contrary to a cursory Google search of "executions cost more than life". I would suggest that you reconsider the use of fifty years as an average. That figure would would be somewhat reasonable if you were to assume that prison is a healthy environment and that every lifer is twenty years old after arrest and conviction, but I see no reason to assume that this is the case.
SovereignIsHe: Do you have legal counsel in your glove box as well?
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/7/2008 2:09:37 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1672
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
We could just not execute people and save a lot of money.
FYI, incarcerating a person for life (say 50 years on average after arrest and conviction) costs ALOT more than executing someone. And this INCLUDES all the legal fees on both sides.
It reallly comes down to the present value of keeping someone incarcerated from 15 years from now until the end of his natural life.
Let's assume that it costs $50K/year PERMANENTLY (IE: the guy never dies) starting in 15 years to keep such a person in jail. With a 5% annual discount rate, you could pay for that by setting aside $480K today. Texas, one of the most efficient DP states in the world, says it costs them well over $500K in legal costs alone to give someone the needle.
The costs of incarcerating someone could further be mitigated if that person were required to work if he wanted to eat. Many convicts work making license plates, building roads, and other things that create economic value.
Most studies suggest that states spend anywhere from an extra $700K/execution in Kansas to $2.2 million in North Carolina to $3.2 million/execution in Florida. Info here: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/7/2008 2:10:03 PM
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kernsfamily
Posts: 1240
Joined: 4/26/2006
From: Dallas (originally Detroit)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
We could just not execute people and save a lot of money.
FYI, incarcerating a person for life (say 50 years on average after arrest and conviction) costs ALOT more than executing someone. And this INCLUDES all the legal fees on both sides.
actually, studies have been done....and, the financial costs are GREATER when executing vs. life in prison (taking into consideration the legal fees involved....that the state must bear).....
i'll see if I can dig that study up....
MY ONLY thing regarding the death penalty: In the past 2+ years, 20+ people, who had been locked away for YEARS have been found "innocent" of their crimes, due to revisiting their cases and performing DNA analysis on evidence.
Wrongfully convicted. wrongfully imprisoned. (but, at the time, everyone did they best that they could do)....
in a capital murder case, once the "convicted" is executed...it's irreversible.....iam not sure, though, if there had been any "wrongfully executed" people, though......(but, as I said, just in Dallas County ALONE, 20+ people have been found to be "cleared" of their crimes)....
_____________________________
Proud dad of 3 great girls....Erin, Emilie and Elise
Blessed to have all of them in a "totally awesome" public elementary school!
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/7/2008 2:20:16 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3745
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
SovereignIsHe: Do you have legal counsel in your glove box as well?
Nope, but I have a Mini-30 in the trunk...
John
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RE: Texas carries out execution of Mexican National - 8/7/2008 2:22:37 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 3745
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
We could just not execute people and save a lot of money.
FYI, incarcerating a person for life (say 50 years on average after arrest and conviction) costs ALOT more than executing someone. And this INCLUDES all the legal fees on both sides.
It reallly comes down to the present value of keeping someone incarcerated from 15 years from now until the end of his natural life.
Let's assume that it costs $50K/year PERMANENTLY (IE: the guy never dies) starting in 15 years to keep such a person in jail. With a 5% annual discount rate, you could pay for that by setting aside $480K today. Texas, one of the most efficient DP states in the world, says it costs them well over $500K in legal costs alone to give someone the needle.
The costs of incarcerating someone could further be mitigated if that person were required to work if he wanted to eat. Many convicts work making license plates, building roads, and other things that create economic value.
Most studies suggest that states spend anywhere from an extra $700K/execution in Kansas to $2.2 million in North Carolina to $3.2 million/execution in Florida. Info here: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108
It doesn't have to cost more, nor should it...
John
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