RE: How Important is the Church? (Full Version)

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earthless -> RE: How Important is the Church? (8/6/2008 1:27:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: doinkdom

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
I'm also a dying breed in that I don't have a cell phone and get along quite nicely without one.


what ?!?! No cell phone!!?!

[:D][8D]


Exactly! My 6 month old son has an IPhone.



rcjames -> RE: How Important is the Church? (8/6/2008 1:56:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Conquered

quote:

So please list the points you wish to discuss and I will discuss them with you.


rcjames, I don't have time to transcribe the video for you and there is simply too much there to summarize. Please feel free to tackle my question without the context of the video.


Well I guess I won't comment on it them.

quote:

This pastor is a huge Piper fan, so I doubt there is any issue with church tradition.


But I will say that since he is a "HUge" Piper fan, then I would probably have plenty to disagree with the Pastor about.

Thanks
RC



doinkdom -> RE: How Important is the Church? (8/6/2008 2:02:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames
But I will say that since he is a "HUge" Piper fan, then I would probably have plenty to disagree with the Pastor about.

Thanks
RC


[sm=shocked.gif] blasphemy!

j/k[8D]

I just never met anyone that didn't like Piper on some level.



atruefaith -> RE: How Important is the Church? (8/6/2008 2:26:59 PM)

quote:

But I will say that since he is a "HUge" Piper fan, then I would probably have plenty to disagree with the Pastor about.


Right. Better to brand my question according to your cultural sensitivities and theological biases in order to avoid a meaningful discussion…because, of course, that’s what Jesus would do. You and Jimbo could have just moved on or started a new thread on the evils of YouTube/Piper/whatever instead of feeling compelled to respond with what seems like a whole lot of nothing, and with what just distracts from my original question. Naturally, guilt-by-association is only a fallacy and a sin that exists outside the church.



JimboFletch -> RE: How Important is the Church? (8/6/2008 2:36:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Conquered

quote:

But I will say that since he is a "HUge" Piper fan, then I would probably have plenty to disagree with the Pastor about.


Right. Better to brand my question according to your cultural sensitivities and theological biases in order to avoid a meaningful discussion…because, of course, that’s what Jesus would do. You and Jimbo could have just moved on or started a new thread on the evils of YouTube/Piper/whatever instead of feeling compelled to respond with what seems like a whole lot of nothing, and with what just distracts from my original question. Naturally, guilt-by-association is only a fallacy and a sin that exists outside the church.

FYI, RC and I are on opposite side of certain fences, but we both appreciate something more substantial than a link followed by ridicule and unrelated scripture quotes.

But in fairness to both of us, you DID ask a general question after your link.
quote:

So what are your thoughts on the necessity of the church...

I was hoping you'd clarify if you mean the local church membership, a church buliding, local believers, the unversal Church, or something else.



atruefaith -> RE: How Important is the Church? (8/6/2008 2:38:47 PM)

quote:

So when you asked, "So what are your thoughts on the necessity of the church - particularly in light of the decline of the Western Church?"

Are we talking about the awful and spoiled American church with it's tolerant gospel and mamsy-pamsy attitude?

Cause, imo, one of the greatest and most neglected mission fields is in our own backyards. And it doesn't require "the church" universal to reach it.


That's a loaded question...just like mine. I think what I'm most interested in hearing back about is how can the Bride of Christ can really be seen when we see a church (collectively speaking) that doesn’t align with the Gospel. Everything that Mr. Seavey says in his video is true and agrees with Scripture. The church is the crown jewel of Christ as Christ is the crown jewel of his Father. Yet after we put the Western Church through the refining fires of Scripture, what do we see left? Do we see anything? I think we’ll all largely agree that if we see anything at all it is but little, but is there really anything tangibly there other than a few scattered congregations in a sea of hypocrisy? Now I do think there is hope and I do think the church is necessary, even though it is weak. I think there is a need for those few bodies that truly pursue Christ in spirit and truth to work diligently to put aside petty squabbles to prove its absolute necessity. I think the dividing line is the hopeless of man that is dead in his sin and his need for a Savior out of it. That’s where I’m coming from but I wanted to open it up for good discussion. I had no idea, however, that by posting a YouTube link that some couldn’t see past a tool I was using to frame my question.

Couldn’t agree with you more about our nation being a huge mission field.



atruefaith -> RE: How Important is the Church? (8/6/2008 2:53:47 PM)

quote:

FYI, RC and I are on opposite side of certain fences, but we both appreciate something more substantial than a link followed by ridicule and unrelated scripture quotes.


I ridiculed you? Did you think of this before or after you compared me to Satan in an earlier post? Again, Jimbo, if you don't like the context of an OP, then simply don't respond.



doinkdom -> RE: How Important is the Church? (8/6/2008 2:54:42 PM)

IMO...

I don't think the church overall is weak. I do think there are more than just a few public ministries that have been discredited. But there are so many good, strong, godly ministries serving well all the time.

I also believe that the majority of the body wants the Truth, the entire gospel and to live in community with one another. Exhibiting lives that will help change the world.

I am also saddened by the number of men and women in leadership willing to compromise for a paycheck. People in ministry who are at the mercy of the wealthy tither. This is the part of church that is weak, that is disgusting in sight and that should be done away with.

I'm not talking about everyone being a tentmaker, but I don't believe ministry should be treated like a job. It is a gift, it is a calling...it is not a job, it is not to make you rich and it's not to make life easier for you. And to the other extreme, I don't think anyone needs to "take one for Jesus" either.

There are many strong, healthy and productive Christian leaders. Unfortunately, the body would rather bicker over non-essential doctrinal matters than support the body in action.



Liveloved -> RE: How Important is the Church? (8/6/2008 3:11:24 PM)

quote:

Is that, then, the point of the video?


In one sentence I would say the point of the video is that the manifold wisdom of God is made known through the church (and the church needs to understand that).

And BTW, I have high regard for folks who refuse to be a slave to today's technology.[:)]



rcjames -> RE: How Important is the Church? (8/6/2008 3:40:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: doinkdom

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames
But I will say that since he is a "HUge" Piper fan, then I would probably have plenty to disagree with the Pastor about.

Thanks
RC


[sm=shocked.gif] blasphemy!

j/k[8D]

I just never met anyone that didn't like Piper on some level.


Oh I do think he wears nice suits.[8D]

Thanks
RC



crankius -> RE: How Important is the Church? (8/6/2008 4:12:30 PM)

Because I greatly like Jimbo and RC, I am going to show great compassion on them and place here the text (as accurate as I could get) of the video[sm=cowboy.gif]:

quote:

…not in the great nations, not at the Olympics, not in the charismatic world leaders who inspire the applause of countless people, but in the church of Jesus Christ who inspires the awe of the countless horde of heavenly hosts.

No star or planet or solar system ever created however massive or complex has more fully made known the wisdom of God. No creature, however intricate and complicated, has ever made more known the fullness of the wisdom of God, not even man himself, the pinnacle of the Genesis creation account, or even the angels in all their glory, ever made more known the fullness of the wisdom of God than the church itself does.

Nothing yet in all of infinite history has until the church was brought about by the power of God made more fully known the infinite and manifold wisdom of God.

So you tell me…how important is the church?

This gathering of saints right here this morning has the angels in heaven on the edge of their seats! I wonder what gets you on the edge of your seats.



Then he quotes a sermon by John Piper, linked here. His quote doesn’t exactly match up to this text, but it is quite close.

Here is the part of Piper’s sermon he refers to:

quote:

The church of Jesus Christ is the most important institution in the world. The assembly of the redeemed, the company of the saints, the children of God are more significant in world history than any other group, organization or nation. The United States of America compares to the church of Jesus Christ like a speck of dust compares to the sun. The drama of international relations compares to the mission of the church like a kindergarten riddle compares to Hamlet or King Lear. And all pomp of May Day in Red Square and the pageantry of New Year's in Pasadena fade into a formless grey against the splendor of the bride of Christ. Take heed how you judge. Things are not what they seem. "All flesh is like grass. And all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the word of the Lord (and all His family) abide forever" (1 Peter 1:24,25). The media and all the powers, and authorities and rulers and stars that they present are a mirage. "For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God" (Luke 16:15). The gates of hades, the powers of death, will prevail against every institution but one, the church.
For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God … because the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the liberty of the glory of the children of God (Romans 8:19, 21).
Lift up your eyes, O Christians! You belong to a society that will never cease, to the apple of God's eye, to the eternal and cosmic church of our Lord, Jesus Christ.



JimboFletch -> RE: How Important is the Church? (8/6/2008 4:23:38 PM)

Crankius, you are an angel!



mvic -> RE: How Important is the Church? (8/6/2008 5:10:04 PM)

Is my personal relationship with God and Jesus?

Or with the church?

Over the years man has created many churches, not all of whom are in agreement regarding doctrine or dogma.

But as far as I know, there is still one God. One Jesus, His only Son. One Saviour.



JimboFletch -> RE: How Important is the Church? (8/6/2008 5:14:25 PM)

To be precise:

There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.



atruefaith -> RE: How Important is the Church? (8/6/2008 5:29:43 PM)

quote:

Is my personal relationship with God and Jesus?

Or with the church?

Over the years man has created many churches, not all of whom are in agreement regarding doctrine or dogma.

But as far as I know, there is still one God. One Jesus, His only Son. One Saviour.


Yes, but also One Body as well. So do you think you can have a personal relationship with Jesus outside his Body? Being of the Reformed persuasion, I can certainly understand the sensitivity that many would approach this issue with, but the Scriptures are clear that you cannot be in Christ, yet outside his Body. I think Augustine does a wonderful job clearing up much of the confusion in his writings on the visible and invisible church.



TrustingGod -> RE: How Important is the Church? (8/6/2008 6:23:24 PM)

I have one family - but we live in different houses and live life differently. Therefore, the Church being one body but having different houses (denominations) is not a problem for me.

I believe the church, the gathering of the Body, is very important. When we isolate ourselves from other believers, we are, in essence, fighting the battle alone when we could be lining up shoulder-to-shoulder with our brothers.

I believe the Word suggests the gathering of believers is a positive and necessary action (where two or three are gathered, do not forsake the gathering of yourselves).

Different denominations are okay - as long as we are all working toward the same goal - spreading the Word of God. However, the Church needs to stop the in-fighting. Now, I'm not talking about bringing to light false teachings - that is a necessity.

P.S., don't knock the blackberry (mine is red, so it is more of a raspberry). I LOVE it. Calendar, alarm clock, MP3 player, video player (altho I have no idea how do that - gotta get my son to show me), gamer, texting, emails, internet access....oh yeah, a telephone too!



SonInMe1 -> RE: How Important is the Church? (8/6/2008 9:41:09 PM)

God.

Family

Church

Vocation

Church is third on the list. It is important, but it is not number one. Its not number two.

Its number three.



budlawry -> RE: How Important is the Church? (8/7/2008 9:51:25 AM)

From my personal point, I feel no discomfort, from staying away from organized churches. I detest arguement, I refuse to be brainwashed into thinking in any certain way, and I cannot mix Good, with Evil, and be content to do so.

I find the best comfort, in reading my bible scriptures, opening my day with prayer, giving thanks to Jesus, for the day, about to unfold.

I am not trying to uphold myself, as anything special. It is just my comfort level, and, if its not broke, don't fix it.

I been involved with organized religion, and it has never served me, in a good way. I've even held a high position, but, this still did not benefit me, as a christian. Rather, began a slow diversion, from the true way. I was finally cast out of The organization, because, I refused to mix Good, with Evil, something which I found to be quite prevelant among the higher individuals. When they finally demanded that I do so, I refused, knowing full well, the outcome. Since after my departure, they couldn't take out their frustrations on me any further, they began attacking my Brother, who was still involved with the group. He and I, had talked at some length, about this problem, and he all but confessed, that, yes, this problem did exist, but, he had his family's well being to consider, and therefore couldn't make that decision, to quit.

His Boss, finally, deported him to a different region, where he was no longer in a high position, but, rather back to being a fulltime pastor, of a church. This was not so bad, for him, and he freely confessed, that this was where he really belonged. He was Happy, and so I was happy for him.
Then on Easter eve, as he headed home from making preparations for the following mornings worship service, he was struck down by a drunk driver, and died instantly. God spared my two nephews, by tossing them clear of the van's wreckage, they were found outside, unharmed.
It was ironic, that a drunken driver, would be the instrument of his death, for this was the main type of person, for whom he prayed for, and sought redemtion for.
IT goes without saying, that many of his cohorts, sought to blame me for his demise, because he had been sent away, because of me, and my actions.
As if to add further pain, my Father suffered a stroke, that same morning, and died just a few months later. So, now, I was alone, to boil in my own juices, as it were.
To this day, I still feel that I did the right thing, and Joe's passing, was a good thing, not bad, he was at home now, with Jesus. So too was my Father. I was left here, to make my way as best as I could, with Jesus's grace to help me along, during this, the darkest of times. But, I swore, that never again, would I partake of that organizations dealings, and so it has been.
The person's who brought about this tragic ending, would have to answer, for their own decisions. All I could do, was to pray for them, and my brother's family. This would be their time of testing, and so, there own decision, as how to best weather this storm.

But, this is not the only case of dissatisfaction, with organized religion, there have many other instances of annoying distractions. Just as the devotion says, too many added do's and don'ts, too many added judgements, with which to hang a person. This is not, what following Jesus, is about. One only has to read about the fate of the Jews, to understand this aspect of God.

You can be in bed, stark naked, covered only with a blanket, and still be in prayer, how about in the shower, is this inappropaite? Have you not prayed then? God, is not concerned how you come to him, it is not the body, but, the heart. What kind of condition is your heart in, is it clothed with the concerns of God.

All this being said, I do not shy away from doing Good, I will do that which God, would have me do. I am ready to travel, anywhere God would lead me. I will testify to anyone, give consul, to anyone, as the need, or, opportunity arise's. This I desire to do, and without conditions.

Please forgive any typo's, or, misspellings, I have strived to keep these annoyances out, as it is possible. Fat fingers, sticky keys, and speed typing, are not my biggest downfalls.



JimboFletch -> RE: How Important is the Church? (8/7/2008 10:05:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: budlawry

From my personal point, I feel no discomfort, from staying away from organized churches. I detest arguement, I refuse to be brainwashed into thinking in any certain way, and I cannot mix Good, with Evil, and be content to do so.

I find the best comfort, in reading my bible scriptures, opening my day with prayer, giving thanks to Jesus, for the day, about to unfold.

I am not trying to uphold myself, as anything special. It is just my comfort level, and, if its not broke, don't fix it....

I wouldn't consider you special unless you can explain how you manage to obey the injunction to not forsake assembling with fellow believers. Or how you can claim to meet John's description, "We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death."



doinkdom -> RE: How Important is the Church? (8/7/2008 10:19:27 AM)

even if...

IF - huge "if"

you can reconcile scripture to justify not attending a "church," how on earth or heaven do you reconcile scriptures about the "one anothers?"

Love one another
Grieve, reproof, encourage, etc., etc. one another
Caring for one another
Serving one another

without being part of a body? without living in community with the body?

Scripture gives no assurance of the profession of lone-ranger Christians.



crankius -> RE: How Important is the Church? (8/7/2008 10:28:35 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

Crankius, you are an angel!


Thanks Jimbo! [sm=angelhalo.gif]

Just another instance of a woman stepping up to do a man's job. [sm=redhairsmile.gif]


(no offense, Mr. Conquered.)



quote:

ORIGINAL: budlawry
I been involved with organized religion, and it has never served me, in a good way. I've even held a high position, but, this still did not benefit me, as a christian.


I guess I failed to realize it was all about serving and benefiting "me".



crankius -> RE: How Important is the Church? (8/7/2008 10:36:05 AM)

quote:

His Boss, finally, deported him to a different region, where he was no longer in a high position, but, rather back to being a fulltime pastor, of a church. This was not so bad, for him, and he freely confessed, that this was where he really belonged. He was Happy, and so I was happy for him.
Then on Easter eve, as he headed home from making preparations for the following mornings worship service, he was struck down by a drunk driver, and died instantly. God spared my two nephews, by tossing them clear of the van's wreckage, they were found outside, unharmed.
It was ironic, that a drunken driver, would be the instrument of his death, for this was the main type of person, for whom he prayed for, and sought redemtion for.
IT goes without saying, that many of his cohorts, sought to blame me for his demise, because he had been sent away, because of me, and my actions.
As if to add further pain, my Father suffered a stroke, that same morning, and died just a few months later. So, now, I was alone, to boil in my own juices, as it were.
To this day, I still feel that I did the right thing, and Joe's passing, was a good thing, not bad, he was at home now, with Jesus. So too was my Father. I was left here, to make my way as best as I could, with Jesus's grace to help me along, during this, the darkest of times. But, I swore, that never again, would I partake of that organizations dealings, and so it has been.
The person's who brought about this tragic ending, would have to answer, for their own decisions. All I could do, was to pray for them, and my brother's family. This would be their time of testing, and so, there own decision, as how to best weather this storm.


I am sorry about the death of your brother and your father. Very sorry. I assure you, though, that being hit by a drunk driver and having a stroke are not the results of organized church. Those things happen to both the worldly and the Godly.

Questions:

I am wondering exactly how you chose your previous church to attend?

How was your brother "deported to another religion"? From Hinduism to Buddhism? From Greek Orthodox to Catholicism? How does that work? Can one be "deported" from their religion?

If your brother was a believer in Christ and followed the Bible, he was free to choose any Biblical Christian church of his own choosing, wasn't he?



budlawry -> RE: How Important is the Church? (8/7/2008 10:53:20 AM)

Ah Yes, the arguements, the downcasting of one another.

I do not foresake assembly, nor do I detest my Brothers and Sisters.

I desire no benefit, from being alone, so, I willing join conversations, such as this one. The 'me", you quoted, was not the big 'Me", but, it is over shadowed by my 'Love for God'.

I have quietly read, all of your postings, and wonder, what is your real issue here.

I do everything, I can to witness, discuss, and encourage others, to do as God, would bid them to do. All of the Evils, and trials, of this World can never be changed, to our satisfaction. Our pains and trails will endure, and will be relieved, only as God sees fi



budlawry -> RE: How Important is the Church? (8/7/2008 11:09:07 AM)

My early life, was anything, but, a straight path. I was indoctronated in this Church, from an early age. My Brother chose his path, to be a pastor, within the Church, and prasie be to him, who walks in that path, for not everyone is called.
Of course, he wasn't deported, from his beliefs, nor was he thrown out of the Church organization, he was simple reassigned to another district.
He was very happy, to again be a pastor of the Church, on the grass root level.

Of, course it was a sad time, when both my Father, and Brother passed, but, they were delivered, this most joyous for them. I look forward to my deliverance.

The issue, I have, with the Organization, is listing to their surmons, knowing full well, that they mock, God, being that there true heart felt feelings, are anything, but, Good.

If, they are content, with there mixed actions, then who am I to say diiferent. It is not my place to judge, for so shall I be judged in the same way.

There are always difficult decisions to be made. I had to make mine, with the truth, as I know it to be.



JimboFletch -> RE: How Important is the Church? (8/7/2008 11:16:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: budlawry
I have quietly read, all of your postings, and wonder, what is your real issue here.

I'll tell you: It's what scripture has to say about the matter. Personal experience and feelings do not and never will trump what God's written Word says.



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