quote:

ORIGINAL: jeafl

I became a Christian while attending a YMCA day camp when I was 4 years old, but I was not raised in a Christian home. I had little opportunity to ever attend church services while growing up (the only bus ministry that came through my neighborhood had a founding pastor that was a child molester). As an adult I have not been able to find a church that is sound in doctrine and practice and which shows a genuine concern for social welfare work, which I consider necessary for any church to be legitimate.

My uncle died unexpectedly in 2005 I inherited a fair amount of cash. I wanted to put the money towards building a non-profit college prep Christian school. However, I have been unable to find any church in Florida, Alabama, Georgia or the Carolinas that is capable or willing to provide land to build on and the necessary voluntary labor to build a school.

Since 2006 I have been looking for a pastoral position that would enable me to use my inheritance to promote the Gospel. I am King James only (of a sort), so I have been interested mostly in IFB and BBF churches. I’ve always had concerns about the independent polity of these churches and the tendency of their pastors to act like dictators, but I was willing to overlook this for the sake of having a King James only congregation.

But recently I have participated in several internet message boards that are meant for KJVO/Baptists. I have had little but hostility from these boards. I have even been told that I cannot be saved because I graduated from public schools (rather than “Christian” school or homeschool) and I have a bachelor’s degree in biology from an accredited private college.

The hostility of the IFBs has only heightened my concern over the independent nature of their congregations. I’d like to get some input on several matters.

1. When a sole pastor has absolute say over what a congregation does, is the church is in violation of Acts 20:17 and Acts 20:28, which call for a plurality of leaders at the local congregational level?

2. Should congregations always look to their own membership when they need to hire a pastor or other staff members? I gather that most independent churches bring in people from outside of their congregations, but does this practice violate Titus 2:2, which some people claim says that that local church leaders should come from within the local congregation that they are to serve?

3. The NT uses the word pastor only once; in Ephesians 4:11 pastor is listed among the spiritual gifts. Does this mean that what we now know as a pastor in most churches, i.e., someone who is Bible teacher, business manager, fundraiser, chief cook and bottle washer, have any Biblical basis?

4. IFB and other churches with congregational polity reject the idea of submitting to a higher earthly authority- i.e., they don’t recognize any authority on earth that tell them that they are following false doctrine or engaging in un-Biblical behavior. But didn’t New Testament churches submit to the authority of Paul, the Apostles and the elders in Jerusalem to define doctrine and set standards for Christian practice and behavior (Acts 15 regarding circumcision)?
Do Acts 14:23 and Titus 1:5 indicate that local congregations submitted to the authority of Paul, the Apostles and their designees when it came time to designate church leaders at the congregational level?

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch

I think the NT model is that both the local church AND its leaders (plural) be submissive and accountable to other churches and leaders. There is no lone ranger biblical model for a believer, a local church, or any leader.

quote:

However, I have been unable to find any church in Florida, Alabama, Georgia or the Carolinas that is capable or willing to provide land to build on and the necessary voluntary labor to build a school.

quote:

1. When a sole pastor has absolute say over what a congregation does, is the church is in violation of Acts 20:17 and Acts 20:28, which call for a plurality of leaders at the local congregational level?

quote:

2. Should congregations always look to their own membership when they need to hire a pastor or other staff members? I gather that most independent churches bring in people from outside of their congregations, but does this practice violate Titus 2:2, which some people claim says that that local church leaders should come from within the local congregation that they are to serve?

quote:

3. The NT uses the word pastor only once; in Ephesians 4:11 pastor is listed among the spiritual gifts. Does this mean that what we now know as a pastor in most churches, i.e., someone who is Bible teacher, business manager, fundraiser, chief cook and bottle washer, have any Biblical basis?

quote:

4. IFB and other churches with congregational polity reject the idea of submitting to a higher earthly authority- i.e., they don’t recognize any authority on earth that tell them that they are following false doctrine or engaging in un-Biblical behavior. But didn’t New Testament churches submit to the authority of Paul, the Apostles and the elders in Jerusalem to define doctrine and set standards for Christian practice and behavior (Acts 15 regarding circumcision)? Do Acts 14:23 and Titus 1:5 indicate that local congregations submitted to the authority of Paul, the Apostles and their designees when it came time to designate church leaders at the congregational level?

quote:

ORIGINAL: jeafl

I have found several churches that either have building programs in progress or building plans in the works. I have even offered the money to churches whose buildings were destroyed by fire or other disaster. But when I give them the details of what I want to accomplish by establishing a school they either tell me I don’t have enough money to build anything ($40,000 that I am willing to spend right away plus a $60,000 life insurance policy I can either cash in in 5 years or borrow against now) or they tell me that are not interested or they simply ignore me after I give the details.

I’ve had several Baptist pastors tell me that I would have no say in how the money is spent if I donate it to their church. And the president of one Baptist college said I don’t have enough money to do what I want to do, but then he had the nerve to ask me for a donation anyway.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jayvance

Well, yes and no. It depends on how you define the word "leaders." More on that below. But there is no NT basis for the office of pastor as we understand it, to answer your question.

quote:

That is correct. Furthermore, there's no New Testament basis for a clergy/laity distinction as we understand those terms today. "Offices" such as elder, deacon, pastor, etc. were not paid positions as we have today, nor were they part of any hierarchical power structure familiar to us now.

quote:

People who held leadership positions in the NT church were individuals who had specific giftings AND who had shown themselves to be of godly character. This is why, for instance, Paul did not appoint (a better word would be "recognized") elders (the word simply means advanced in age or understanding) in the church at Ephesus until long after the church had been planted and Paul had LEFT THE CHURCH ON THEIR OWN.

quote:

The logical reason for this delay is because Paul knew it would take time for those of godly character and particular gifting to become known by the congregation. But even after Paul recognized those who were offering leadership in certain areas, he never set up some kind of formal structure whereby the elders exercised authority over the congregation the way the clergy does today.

quote:

When you step back and look at it logically, the idea that one person can fulfill all those demands is ludicrous just from a common-sense standpoint, besides being totally unbiblical.

quote:

VERY interesting questions! Notice the way you posed the question: "Didn't NT churches submit to the authority of Paul, etc." If you look at how Paul interacted with the churches he planted, you see that he didn't spend a lot of time imposing his will on them.

quote:

Instead he spent his time sharing God's heart with them and then it was up to the believers to submit themselves to God's will, not simply do what Paul told them to do because he had "authority" over them. It wasn't about a person exerting authority over other people, it was about corporate submission to God's will. That's one of the most glaring examples of how Christianity has gotten off track, this preoccupation with hierarchy and structure and control and authority. The NT church simply did not operate that way, because Jesus never intended for it to be that way. Christianity was specifically designed to be the "anti-religion" in that there were no priests, no temples, and no sacrifices. But just like Israel demanding a king, we Christians have set up our own priests (the clergy), our own temples (church buildings and organizations), and our own sacrifices (our church services, sermons, music, liturgy, etc.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Even if a non-member offered to give my church $3 million, I'd not be in favor of accepting it if the donor wanted to dictate how the money would be spent unless to put it in an existing project without further strings attached.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qtman

I don't think Jimbo was condeming you for not going to a certain church. He was just stating he would not be in favor of a person outside his congregation having control over the church's decisions regarding finance.

quote:

As to you OP and the amount of money you have assuming you can use one of the alternatives you mentioned, and I know nothing about those, and can build a building for $20.00 per sq ft.

quote:

You have enough to build a 5,000 square ft building. Do you realize how small that is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qtman

Another thought on the school idea. I was privilledge to atten a Church once that had on its rolls and in attendance a man who owned a plumbing company, one that owned a roofing company, one that owned a HVAC company and two that owned construction contract companies. Had someone offered to provide materials for abuilding these gentlemen probably could have provided the labor to built it with. However it is unusual to have all those in one church. You are lucky if you have two or three people that can or will drive nails. To find a church with someone that has the expertise to use the type materials you are talking about would be almost impossible. The labor would all have to be paid for and they would have a lot tied up in a building to small for all practical purposes to use as a school.

quote:

I’ve had several Baptist pastors tell me that I would have no say in how the money is spent if I donate it to their church. And the president of one Baptist college said I don’t have enough money to do what I want to do, but then he had the nerve to ask me for a donation anyway.

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Qtman

I don't think Jimbo was condeming you for not going to a certain church. He was just stating he would not be in favor of a person outside his congregation having control over the church's decisions regarding finance.

But shouldn't this be up to his congregation to decide? His reply reminds me too much of the “my way or the highway” attitude that I have received from IFB pastors.

quote:

My understanding is that whenever the NT talks about elders in connection with a given local church the term is always plural and no hierarchy of elders is ever mentioned in the NT for any particular congregation, i.e., there should not be senior pastors, associate pastors etcetera.

quote:

I don’t have any qualms about a pastor getting a salary for being a pastor. A man cannot be an effective shepherd of a congregation if he has to worry about making a living otherwise. But, then what some pastors make in salary is absolutely absurd considering how little work some of them are allowed to get away with doing.

quote:

I also think it is a mistake to let being a NT church get in the way of 21st century realities. The church today needs to do more things for far more people than it had to do in the 1st century. Heresies are more numerous and more complicated and thus harder to combat now than they were in the 1st century and there are more people to evangelize, feed, clothe, house and minister to now than ever before.

quote:

BTW: The issue of circumcision was referred to a council that consisted of Paul and Apostles and the elders in Jerusalem. Does this imply that the church as a whole had a hierarchy of some sort, i.e., the elders in Jerusalem had something of a supervisory role over a multitude of local congregations much the way bishops today are put in charge of multiple congregations in denominations that have an episcopalian polity?

quote:

Does this mean that Paul served in the role of elder for Ephesus while he was in Ephesus so it is OK to look outside of a congregation for leadership?

quote:

If the elders of a congregation aren’t meant to exercise any kind of binding authority over a congregation, what purpose do they serve? If a congregation can ignore what its elders say is right, why have elders?

quote:

Explain the issue of circumcision. Paul and the Apostles may not have micro-managed individual congregations, but they didn’t leave it up to these individual congregations to set their own doctrine and code of conduct either.

quote:

If nobody outside of a local congregation can tell that congregation what is right and wrong and how to act, how does the church as a whole deal with heresy or abusive pastors?

quote:

ORIGINAL: jeafl

quote:

ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
Even if a non-member offered to give my church $3 million, I'd not be in favor of accepting it if the donor wanted to dictate how the money would be spent unless to put it in an existing project without further strings attached.

Why? Do you doubt someone’s salvation or sincerity just because they don’t belong to your church?

quote:

ORIGINAL: jeafl

Well let me tell you, the Baptists that I am related to or have known by reputation have all been liars, deadbeats, drunks, womanizers or child molesters, but I am not willing to condemn someone because they go to a church that has such Baptists as members and I am entitled to the courtesy of not being condemned because I don’t go to a particular church.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jayvance

quote:

My understanding is that whenever the NT talks about elders in connection with a given local church the term is always plural and no hierarchy of elders is ever mentioned in the NT for any particular congregation, i.e., there should not be senior pastors, associate pastors etcetera.

Totally agree.

quote:

I don’t have any qualms about a pastor getting a salary for being a pastor. A man cannot be an effective shepherd of a congregation if he has to worry about making a living otherwise. But, then what some pastors make in salary is absolutely absurd considering how little work some of them are allowed to get away with doing.

The only thing is, there's no Biblical support for the idea of "pastors" getting paid to be "professional ministers." The concept is totally foreign to the New Testament. As far as not being able to be an effective shepherd of a congregation if you have to worry about making a living, let's think about that for a moment. Number one, do you think the average joe on the street feels the average professional pastor can truly relate to what it's like in the "real world?" The net result of a professional clergy is to isolate them from the common man, which is totally the opposite of what the NT church practiced.

Secondly, there is only one Shepherd of the Church, Jesus Christ. The idea that a man can be THE shepherd (i.e., the senior pastor) of a local Christian community is totally without basis in the NT. As you said earlier, there were always multiple elders in each local congregation.

Thirdly, consider what Paul told the elders in Ephesus the last time he spoke with them:

"Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears. So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified. I have coveted no one’s silver or gold or apparel. Yes, you yourselves know that these hands have provided for my necessities, and for those who were with me. I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive.'" (Acts 20:28-35, NKJV)

Paul clearly instructs these elders NOT to TAKE from the flock but rather to work with their own hands so that they would have the wherewithal to GIVE to the flock. Paul himself, an apostle no less, somehow managed to work for a living while still spreading the Gospel across the nations.

Fourth, the reason we think a pastor needs a full-time patoral salary is because the body isn't ministering to one another the way Jesus intended. There are no professional "ministers" to be found in the NT. Rather, those who are gifted as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers are supposed to "equip...the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. (Eph. 4:12-16, NKJV)

Who are supposed to do the work of ministry? The saints. Who are supposed to edify the body of Christ? The saints. Who are supposed to be mature and complete in Christ? The saints. The problem is that the things the body is supposed to be doing for, with and to one another have been abdicated to a professional clergy class.

quote:

I also think it is a mistake to let being a NT church get in the way of 21st century realities. The church today needs to do more things for far more people than it had to do in the 1st century. Heresies are more numerous and more complicated and thus harder to combat now than they were in the 1st century and there are more people to evangelize, feed, clothe, house and minister to now than ever before.

But none of those realities argues for a professional clergy. On the contrary, it simply means there's more work for the whole body to do.

quote:

BTW: The issue of circumcision was referred to a council that consisted of Paul and Apostles and the elders in Jerusalem. Does this imply that the church as a whole had a hierarchy of some sort, i.e., the elders in Jerusalem had something of a supervisory role over a multitude of local congregations much the way bishops today are put in charge of multiple congregations in denominations that have an episcopalian polity?

It's interesting to read Acts 15 to see how this whole episode actually played out. What happened was that the Gentile believers in Antioch NEVER DID practice circumcision. It was only because "certain men from Judea" came down to Antioch and tried to IMPOSE circumcision on the Gentile Christians WITHOUT THE BACKING OF THE APOSTLES that this issue even came up in the first place. The apostles and elders in Jerusalem never tried to exercise authority over the Gentile Christians in Antioch. Yes, the Antioch church did send Paul and Barnabas to Jerusalem to discuss the issue with the leaders there, but still there's no formal hierarchy of authority in view. Even the letter the Jerusalem leaders sent back to Antioch was very low-key; there was no heavy-handedness evident in that letter at all.

So in my view, this episode is not evidence of a formal chain of command or hierarchical structure in the NT church, but rather a beautiful example of believers ministering one to another and coming up with a consensus. There was no top-down control as we have today.

quote:

Does this mean that Paul served in the role of elder for Ephesus while he was in Ephesus so it is OK to look outside of a congregation for leadership?

The reason Paul was qualified to provide leadership to the Ephesian church was because he planted it in the first place. So I don't see that as a basis for bringing in PERMANENT outside leadership. Certainly there will always be a role for itinerant ministers who go from city to city to build up the body of Christ in some particular area of ministry, but that's not the same as bringing in someone to be a paid pastor.

quote:

If the elders of a congregation aren’t meant to exercise any kind of binding authority over a congregation, what purpose do they serve? If a congregation can ignore what its elders say is right, why have elders?

The purpose of leadership in the church is as stated above in Ephesians 4. They were to serve as examples to the body and provide leadership in their particular areas of giftings. But "binding authority" in a local church is vested in the ENTIRE body, not in one person or even a handful of people. A good example of this is when Paul wrote to the Corinthian church about the incest that was taking place in their midst. He didn't instruct the pastor or the elders to disfellowship that person, he put that responsibility on the entire body. Again, our view of church structure has been so skewed by manmade traditions that it's hard to step back and recognize that many of the assumptions we've made about Biblical authority don't really have any Scriptural basis.

quote:

Explain the issue of circumcision. Paul and the Apostles may not have micro-managed individual congregations, but they didn’t leave it up to these individual congregations to set their own doctrine and code of conduct either.

The apostles shared the heart of God with the body, but you just don't find NT examples of apostles (or local elders) actually ENFORCING their will on other believers. The reason for that is because Jesus did not ever intend to set up that kind of top-down hierarchy. He always intended for the body to minister one to another and "provoke one another to good works" with GUIDANCE and ENCOURAGEMENT from those who had special giftings.

quote:

If nobody outside of a local congregation can tell that congregation what is right and wrong and how to act, how does the church as a whole deal with heresy or abusive pastors?

I'm not saying local congregations shouldn't be open to hear from other believers who don't belong to their particular local Christian community, but that's not the same as having control imposed upon them from outside sources. Interestingly, even Paul specifically limited his authority to churches that he himself had planted:

"We, however, will not boast beyond measure, but within the limits of the sphere which God appointed us—a sphere which especially includes you. For we are not overextending ourselves (as though our authority did not extend to you), for it was to you that we came with the gospel of Christ; not boasting of things beyond measure, that is, in other men’s labors, but having hope, that as your faith is increased, we shall be greatly enlarged by you in our sphere, to preach the gospel in the regions beyond you, and not to boast in another man’s sphere of accomplishment. But 'he who glories, let him glory in the LORD.' 18 For not he who commends himself is approved, but whom the Lord commends.'" (II Cor. 10:13-18, NKJV).

As far as dealing with heresy within the local congregation, if every member is walking in the Spirit as Christ intended, heresy would have much less opportunity to take root. As far as abusive pastors, if we held to a Scriptural model of church life there would BE no abusive pastors.

Thank you for the opportunity to engage in a very stimulating dialogue, I'm enjoying it very much.