RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? (Full Version)

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doinkdom -> RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? (8/7/2008 12:54:52 PM)

Well, that would make the difference for me if I were expected to stand as a witness to God in support of this union.

Otherwise...I'd go.



Jenny-Fair -> RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? (8/7/2008 12:55:47 PM)

So they claim to be Christians? Because the Bible is pretty specific--people who are Christians but continue to live that lifestyle are people we are not supposed to associate with. We don't hold unbelievers to God's laws, but we do hold believers to it.



manda59 -> RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? (8/7/2008 1:02:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair
So they claim to be Christians?


They might do, but the OP didn't say that - she said they attended an Episcopalian church.



Jenny-Fair -> RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? (8/7/2008 2:19:33 PM)

That's why there was a question mark at the end, Manda.



sunshinesoprano -> RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? (8/7/2008 2:57:18 PM)

The partner claims he's a Christian. My friend believes in God, but hasn't been able to grasp the concept of Jesus yet.



manda59 -> RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? (8/7/2008 3:09:13 PM)

Sounds to me like your friend is very much under this guy's influence.



phosadaud -> RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? (8/7/2008 3:23:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: manda59

quote:

ORIGINAL: phosadaud
How would that be untrue? You won't be able to attend because your moral convictions are such that you cannot celebrate a homosexual marriage. You don't have to spell out the why everytime you turn down an invitation.

So, if that's the reason, why not be honest and say it, rather than hide behind vagaries?


Maybe it's just me, but when I decline an invitation, I don't explain why. I just tell folks I can't make it. If they ask me why, I would tell them why. I don't understand why I would do any different here. That's not hiding anything - that's simply doing things like I always do them.

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What positive effect? "Hey - this person is against what I am doing, but they are going to pretend they are excited about it."

Who said anything about being "excited" about it?


So, are you saying that your gay friend would think you were there for what purpose exactly? You went there because you are sad? That's the point I'm trying to make. Is that any clearer?

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Since when is lying a positive effect?

I did not advocate lying - please do not put words into my mouth (or my fingers!).


Um. I didn't say you advocated lying. And this goes with my above post. Again, why will your friend think you are there? Because you are sad? Because you are grieved? Why would they invite you then? Maybe this is a cultural difference on your side of the pond, but where I'm from, when you attend a celebration (and a wedding over here is a celebration which is why wedding invites always say something to the effect of "please join us in the celebration of..."), you don't go because you are sad and if you do, that is extremely rude.

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But you just said above you should go to the ceremony so as not to offend the couple?

Are you absolutely sure I said that? Perhaps you could find the post and show me?


OK. I'm seriously not following you here. Post 73 and others, you imply that not going would cause problems between the gay friend. If you aren't worried about offending them, than why would it matter if you weren't there? And they knew why? I'm sorry, I'm just not following.

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Again, my challenge stands: Provide me one single instance of Jesus or the Apostles or anyone godly in Scripture for that matter celebrating someone's sin and "standing by them" as they commit to sin, and I'll shut up.

Can you provide me with an instance in Scripture where Jesus walked away from a sinner on moral principles?


Driving sinners from the temple.
Telling His disciples to shake the dust off their feet and leave towns that didn't welcome them.
Need I go on? It's half the NT.

Of course, here we are ONLY talking about not attending a ceremony. We are not talking about not being friends and never associating with them so I still don't get your point. Did you miss all my posts in which I encouraged doing other things to show your love - but that doesn't mean attending the celebration of the commitment to a sinful lifestyle?

And my challenge still isn't answered of one place in Scripture that either Jesus or His followers attended something like this where someone was celebrating the commitment to sin. That has nothing to do with simply being around "sinners".

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And no matter what you want to call it, the SOLE purpose of a wedding ceremony (or union ceremony or whatever you call it) is to CELEBRATE the uniting of 2 people.

That may be why others are there, but it would not be why I was there. Just like when I went into a heroin den to visit some folks - they were there to shoot up, I was there to bring them food.


OK. I'm seriously not following here. How is this like providing food for people in need?

And do you tell your friend why you are going? And I'm still trying to understand what purpose it serves to go. I just don't understand. I get taking food to people who are probably hungry. I don't get what difference it makes to physically attend a ceremony? [sm=sadquestion.gif]



manda59 -> RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? (8/7/2008 7:36:38 PM)

phosadaud

Sorry but I don't have the time to keep responding to long posts.
I will try and post a somewhat condensed reply.

Firstly, what's the point of not going to a gay union if the person doesn' t say why they're not going? I don't get that.

Secondly, if I went to a union for a gay friend of mine, he would think it was because I cared. He wouldn't expect me to be excited, but he'd want me there because I was his friend. Which is good enough for me.

Thirdly, I don't see the relevance of those Scriptural incidents you're citing.
Jesus didn't isolate himself from the moneychangers, he confronted them. And re the shaking the dust from their feet etc. I thought that was about using your time wisely for God and knowing when to move on. And I disagree with you - I think the incidents where Jesus deliberately chose to hang out with sinners have everything to do with what we're talking about here.

Fourthly, to me, visiting addicts in the place where they "celebrate" their drug use, and being there because I care, does have bearing on this situation. The OP's friend and his partner *are* in need, they just don't know it. They need spiritual food, and the mere presence of a Bible-believing Christian could have spiritual repercussions for both of them.



phosadaud -> RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? (8/7/2008 9:04:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: manda59
Firstly, what's the point of not going to a gay union if the person doesn' t say why they're not going? I don't get that.


Why would I tell people why when I don't for anything else. However, if they ask, I would say why, like I always do. I don't see why I would treat this any different. If you don't do things that way, that's fine. We're different. I'm not not attending to make a political statement. I'm not attending because I will not celebrate 2 people committing to sin. And, if you think I'm "hiding" something, if they are my friend, they will know where I stand so there wouldn't be a reason to beat a dead horse.

quote:

Secondly, if I went to a union for a gay friend of mine, he would think it was because I cared. He wouldn't expect me to be excited, but he'd want me there because I was his friend. Which is good enough for me.


I guess that's not what I'm understanding. You say that you will go to show him you care, but that you will sit in the back and pray against it. Is that not dishonest to make your friend think one thing and do something opposite what they are thinking? Obviously they didn't invite you so you could sit in the back and pray against them? I'm sorry, I just don't get it. I'm not trying to be ornery, I seriously don't get it. Where I'm from, that would be considered exceedingly rude.

quote:

Thirdly, I don't see the relevance of those Scriptural incidents you're citing.
Jesus didn't isolate himself from the moneychangers, he confronted them. And re the shaking the dust from their feet etc. I thought that was about using your time wisely for God and knowing when to move on. And I disagree with you - I think the incidents where Jesus deliberately chose to hang out with sinners have everything to do with what we're talking about here.


Umm. You asked if there were ever any instances where Jesus walked away from a sinner for moral purposes. What would you call clearing the temple and telling the disciples to not have anything to do with towns that rejected the message? Walking to them?

As far as knowing when to move on - that is not what it was about and Scripture is quite clear:

Luke 9:5 If people do not welcome you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave their town, as a testimony against them."

And I think you are still missing what I've posted or you don't want to hear it I'm not sure which because I feel I have been very clear. When have I said I wouldn't hang out with "sinners"? I specifically said the only thing I wouldn't do it attend a ceremony whose soul purpose is to celebrate committing to a sinful lifestyle. I don't see any instances in Scripture where Jesus did either. I would not have an issue with having them over for dinner or going for coffee together. So, I have no idea where you are getting your idea that I am "isolating" myself. [8|]

quote:

Fourthly, to me, visiting addicts in the place where they "celebrate" their drug use, and being there because I care, does have bearing on this situation. The OP's friend and his partner *are* in need, they just don't know it. They need spiritual food, and the mere presence of a Bible-believing Christian could have spiritual repercussions for both of them.


You're comparing addicts shooting up with a gay couple getting married? How many addicts do you know? Seriously? Trust me when I say they are NOT celebrating anything. [&:]

And by the way, if you went with a friend to sit back and watch them shoot up to "be there for them", I would say the same thing - and I wouldn't do that either. I would help them with their needs. I would walk with them to get help. I would love them to pieces.

And again, what are you providing for the gay couple by being there at that moment that can only be provided by attending this ceremony?



buckifn -> RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? (8/7/2008 10:27:30 PM)

quote:

The partner claims he's a Christian. My friend believes in God, but hasn't been able to grasp the concept of Jesus yet.


If someone is embracing a lifestyle the Bible clearly calls sin they are NOT a Christian. If we who are a Christian do not show the difference and explain the difference to them then we are not doing what we are called to do.

Have you explained to this man what being Christlike means? I would be more concerned in making sure both of them know clearly what the Bible says about the sin they are choosing to embrace more than I would about supporting them in sin and attending a ceremony to celebrate it.



manda59 -> RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? (8/8/2008 3:26:52 AM)

So much for my attempts to shorten and condense. [8|] I will try again.

I wouldn't be being dishonest and making my friend think anything, he'd know why I was there.

Btw, I've already stated that you and disagree on what those verses are illustrating, so I won't go there again.

I didn't say anything about you. You seem to keep making this all about you, when actually it's all about the OP, and our chipping in with our opinions.

I know a lot of addicts, sadly. I've worked with them for nearly 10 years. And yes they are actually celebrating, if you think about it. If they weren't in love with how the drug made them feel, they wouldn't be doing it. It's a love affair, an addiction, just like the OP's friend and his partner.

I've already said I would be providing prayer for the gay couple (and those attending) by being there. And showing love for my friend, even though I didn't agree with his lifestyle.

I'm really not keen on keeping repeating myself over and over, so I'd suggest that, rather than once again bring up things we've already discussed, you just say you don't agree with me, and that we'll have to agree to disagree, rather than continually flogging, reviving, and flogging the same dead horse over and over.



BjoyMN -> RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? (8/8/2008 11:58:43 AM)

quote:

The OP's friend and his partner *are* in need, they just don't know it. They need spiritual food, and the mere presence of a Bible-believing Christian could have spiritual repercussions for both of them.




Sunshinesoprano - I think Manda59's point here is good to ponder. Your friend desperately needs The Lord. Your friend invited you because he wants you there. Can you stand tall in Christ and represent Him and His love for all of us sinners in a non-judgemental way to your friend at an important event in his life? Your singing for The Lord is an important way you witness to him right? What happens to your witness of Christ's love and forgivness if you now ignore his invitation? I would be more affraid of sending a message to your friend that his lifestyle is more sinful than mine. We are all sinners. Our job is to love one another and let God do the heavy lifting, which there certainly is in this situation.

Since you have been on this path with your friend this long, why not continue and be open to how the Lord can use you, even at an event you don't agree with? Take a gift that acknowledges God's love for him. Offer to sing a song at the cememony and withness to everyone that is there? Hey, nothing is impossible with God...right! Go give your friend and his partner big hugs and tell them God loves them. Proverbs 3:6 - "Acknowledge The Lord in everything you do, and He will guide your path." This includes His guidance on the path that you are "currently" still on with your friend. Pray and search your heart Sunshinesoprano...how does the Lord want to use you in this relationship that He has blessed you with? Perhaps our Heavenly Father is asking you just how much you are going to trust Him to shine through in difficult circumstances? Is it all about you, or Him?



phosadaud -> RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? (8/8/2008 3:16:03 PM)

Manda, I'm sorry brevity is not my gifting and I'm sorry that you think I'm taking this personally. I'm not sure why you got that idea other than when I post, I'm very direct and don't pull punches. It's not emotional at all for me - it's just how I communicate. It's one reason I put my name in my siggy because folks tend to think I'm a guy.

I'm simply trying to understand what you are saying and trying to express what my views are and some of the comments you have made had made me think that you are not understanding what I am saying so I've been trying to clarify. I thought that was what these forums were about - discussion.

Guess I'll move on. [8|]



shadowspring -> RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? (8/8/2008 4:55:43 PM)

sunshinesoprano,

You have been living your whole life as a witness to this friend since you were thirteen years old. I am sure he has had the gospel explained to him on more than one occasion. You do not have to attend this celebration of his homosexual commitment to "be a witness".

Further, because his partner claims to be a Christian, then the Bible is clear on the subject:

quote:

I Corinthians 5:11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.


I think that is pretty clear on the subject, and it would end all debate for me.



laura... -> RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? (8/8/2008 5:01:53 PM)

I would no more go to support a friend at their homosexual commitment ceremony than I would go to support a friend while they were getting an abortion. I actually had a friend once ask me to drive them to the abortion clinic. I said no.



manda59 -> RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? (8/8/2008 5:44:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: laura...
I would no more go to support a friend at their homosexual commitment ceremony than I would go to support a friend while they were getting an abortion. I actually had a friend once ask me to drive them to the abortion clinic. I said no.



We differ on this.

If it had been my friend having a termination, I'd have accompanied her.

For the same reasons I have given here.



buckifn -> RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? (8/8/2008 5:47:40 PM)

Manda

Would you also accompany them to hell? Just because they are a "friend?"



Jenny-Fair -> RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? (8/8/2008 5:49:41 PM)

Or to murder a ten year old?



GregandJenny -> RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? (8/8/2008 5:53:53 PM)

quote:

Or to murder a ten year old?


As much as I disagree with Manda on this I have to say this is an unfair argument. As much as I loathe abortion, it is legal, unfortunately. To kill a 10 year old is illegal.

G



manda59 -> RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? (8/8/2008 5:54:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: buckifn
Would you also accompany them to hell? Just because they are a "friend?"


A strange question - since I am saved, I could not, could I. Unless you're doubting my salvation?

I heard an evangelist preach once about reaching out to the lost. He spoken of people living in (spiritual) filth, in the gutter. He said that sometimes we need to get down in the gutter with them - but teh secret is not to roll over and let them tickle our tummy.

For me, going to a gay union would not be getting down in the gutter, but it would not be rolling over and letting them tickle my tummy. If someone does not feel they could go to a gay union without that happening, then they should not go. As for me, however, I would go. Regardless of what any of you (or anyone else) would think of my choice.



Jenny-Fair -> RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? (8/8/2008 5:58:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GregandJenny

quote:

Or to murder a ten year old?


As much as I disagree with Manda on this I have to say this is an unfair argument. As much as I loathe abortion, it is legal, unfortunately. To kill a 10 year old is illegal.

G

I don't think it's an unfair argument. Wrong is wrong, and both are equally wrong. I seriously don't get (and don't find biblical support for) witnessing sin just for the sake of witnessing sin, being called 'open-minded' or anything like that. Doesn't your Bible says we are supposed to try and stop people who are heading towards the slaughter? Mine does!



GregandJenny -> RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? (8/8/2008 6:47:40 PM)

quote:

I don't think it's an unfair argument. Wrong is wrong, and both are equally wrong.


Scripturally they are both wrong. Legally they are not. That's why it's an unfair argument.



shadowspring -> RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? (8/8/2008 7:12:58 PM)

I do not believe that supporting someone while they are engaging in an act that is clearly against God's moral code is a loving thing to do. Man's law has nothing to do with this issue.

As Laura posted pages ago, it is loving to tell the truth about the danger they are in spiritually and the damage they are doing to their souls and lives.

If you really believe that it is spiritually damaging to their souls, what kind of friend are you that you would stand by them as a show of support in their self-destruction?

To me that is not real friendship at all. That is cruel and self-centered, as if being liked by them is more important to you than speaking the truth that can set men free.

Really, if you truly love your friend you will speak truly and deal truly. To say that something is destructive to your soul but I support you in that activity anyway is like buying an alcoholic liquor all the while telling him he needs to quit drinking.

No, if you love him you will encourage him to dry out while refusing to support his addiction. Buying liquor for the alcoholic sends a mixed message. And so does supporting a self-confessed Christian in immorality.

I know after I became a Christian, the friends I respected and thanked for their witness were the friends that warned me where my rebellion would lead, NOT the ones who accepted me as I was in order not to appear judgmental. Those so-called friends were useless.



GregandJenny -> RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? (8/8/2008 7:46:03 PM)

quote:

To me that is not real friendship at all. That is cruel and self-centered, as if being liked by them is more important to you than speaking the truth that can set men free.

Really, if you truly love your friend you will speak truly and deal truly. To say that something is destructive to your soul but I support you in that activity anyway is like buying an alcoholic liquor all the while telling him he needs to quit drinking.

No, if you love him you will encourage him to dry out while refusing to support his addiction. Buying liquor for the alcoholic sends a mixed message. And so does supporting a self-confessed Christian in immorality.

I know after I became a Christian, the friends I respected and thanked for their witness were the friends that warned me where my rebellion would lead, NOT the ones who accepted me as I was in order not to appear judgmental. Those so-called friends were useless.



^^^ Agreed



Cloak -> RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? (8/8/2008 8:17:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: shadowspring

I do not believe that supporting someone while they are engaging in an act that is clearly against God's moral code is a loving thing to do. Man's law has nothing to do with this issue.

As Laura posted pages ago, it is loving to tell the truth about the danger they are in spiritually and the damage they are doing to their souls and lives.

If you really believe that it is spiritually damaging to their souls, what kind of friend are you that you would stand by them as a show of support in their self-destruction?

To me that is not real friendship at all. That is cruel and self-centered, as if being liked by them is more important to you than speaking the truth that can set men free.

Really, if you truly love your friend you will speak truly and deal truly. To say that something is destructive to your soul but I support you in that activity anyway is like buying an alcoholic liquor all the while telling him he needs to quit drinking.

No, if you love him you will encourage him to dry out while refusing to support his addiction. Buying liquor for the alcoholic sends a mixed message. And so does supporting a self-confessed Christian in immorality.

I know after I became a Christian, the friends I respected and thanked for their witness were the friends that warned me where my rebellion would lead, NOT the ones who accepted me as I was in order not to appear judgmental. Those so-called friends were useless.


Excellent and Wise post to which I agree 100%! Bless you shadowspring![:)]



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