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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/6/2008 12:40:45 PM
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manda59
Posts: 5437
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunshinesoprano
I do feel you're abrasive in most of your replies, not just to me.
If I break TOS, anyone is free to report me. If I don't, and anyone doesn't like my style, they're free to ignore me.
I'm down to earth and speak as I find, and without frills. Like many Brits. You should come and visit sometime!
quote:
As for what would be more glorifying unto Christ...that's why I asked the question. I don't know.
Imagine both scenarios in detail and what could be gained or lost for Christ in each one.
quote:
There's a lot to lose either way I go.
How so?
_____________________________
"That's what I would say as well."
Mrs Wifey, August 2008.
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/6/2008 12:46:38 PM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CheshireMuse
I disagree. Did Jesus' presence with prostitutes "legitimize" selling sex for money? Attending that ceremony no more makes the OP a supporter of same-sex unions any more than attending a NASCAR race makes me a race car....
But, hey.... to each his or her own....
Did Jesus join in celebrating their prostitution? Did He attend any events that would give credence to the event? Did He ever attend an event that makes a mockery of marriage?
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I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/6/2008 12:55:23 PM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 380
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From: Near Seattle Washington
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quote:
What this friend is doing is something that is inherently wrong and against God's Word. The reason gay "marriage" is even in existence today is because Christians turned their backs and refused to stand up for God and His Word.
Should one continue to promote this stance by turning a blind eye once again out of fear of ending a freindship, and take it even further by standing up in a gay "wedding" ceremony (constituting support of that union) which an abomination to God?
Agreed Kat! Very wellspoken sister!
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The Will of God never takes you to where the Grace of God will not protect you
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/6/2008 12:56:07 PM
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manda59
Posts: 5437
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
Did Jesus join in celebrating their prostitution? Did He attend any events that would give credence to the event? Did He ever attend an event that makes a mockery of marriage?
They called Him "friend of sinners" (and in a mocking way) - what do you think?
_____________________________
"That's what I would say as well."
Mrs Wifey, August 2008.
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/6/2008 1:03:38 PM
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CheshireMuse
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Well, since I wasn't there, I can't say, now can I? But, of course, neither can you.... The Bible isn't specific on exactly what sort of socializing took place... but, that's not really the issue.
The OP asked for opinions. They were given.
I don't agree with some of the opinions here, and some don't agree with me.
I have no desire to argue who's right and who's wrong.
If it was me, I'd go to my friend's celebration.
The OP, however, is NOT me.... she's very upset over this and obviously very conflicted... so, my advice to her would be to stay home. It's better for everyone involved.
quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
quote:
ORIGINAL: CheshireMuse
I disagree. Did Jesus' presence with prostitutes "legitimize" selling sex for money? Attending that ceremony no more makes the OP a supporter of same-sex unions any more than attending a NASCAR race makes me a race car....
But, hey.... to each his or her own....
Did Jesus join in celebrating their prostitution? Did He attend any events that would give credence to the event? Did He ever attend an event that makes a mockery of marriage?
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Peace,
Muse
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/6/2008 1:18:09 PM
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Memaw.
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quote:
The fact that I was in love with my friend for most of our friendship makes it worse.
This is the only reason I see where I would say don't go.
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Courtesy is free. Quote from Jalanda
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/6/2008 1:32:44 PM
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MC4JC
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I would not go - if you go, you condone the same sex union which is Biblically wrong and you know it is.
Its one thing to stay as friends but another to condone the actions.
One of the guys I went with in HS turned out to be gay. As much as I like him as a friend, I would never go to a "union" if he held one.
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/6/2008 1:39:50 PM
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bluestone
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It is like going to a Satanic ritual. Your very presence there speaks volumes. And gay unions are more of a threat these days that Satanic rituals.
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I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/6/2008 1:40:16 PM
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Kat_D
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quote:
Well, since I wasn't there, I can't say, now can I? But, of course, neither can you.... The Bible isn't specific on exactly what sort of socializing took place... `
Well, you didn't have to be there to know that anytime Jesus was in the presence of sinners he never condoned their sin.
His attitude towards sin and sinners was exemplified when he was confronted with the woman who commited adultery, and this is what he said to her:
11 "Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more." -John 8
If Jesus showed up at the "wedding" being discussed here, His message to these men would be the same as His message to the woman committing adultery.
However, the fact that they are "marrying" solidifies the fact that they have no intention of "sinning no more." To the contrary, they are celebrating their sin and this wedding is the event they have chosen to do that.
I respect Solo for not wanting to participate in that.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/6/2008 2:09:51 PM
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Auben
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Jesus ate with prostitutes and sinners. According to Jewish tradition, much like some current Christian tradition, you were not allowed to eat with sinners. You couldn't lend them the credence of your presence. That was considered support of their sin.
Jesus had no control over what these parties were like. He didn't have control over whether alcohol was being served or whether the prostitutes were 'on duty.' Still he came. His presence changed the party, the parties did not change him.
This reminds me of another situation Paul detailed. Some Christians were eating meat that had been offered to idols. Others were angered by this clear breaking of God's law. How could they have anything to do with something which had been a part of sin? Paul very clearly detailed that the food was food. If one is strong enough to see food as food, then Christianity did not shun them; however, not all are strong enough. We need to have sensitivity to our brothers and not cause them to stumble with our strength.
I see these as connecting ideas in the New Testament and applicable to this situation. If you have the strength to stand for your ideals, if you are open about God's word and your belief, your stance will be clear to your friends. It will be obvious to the people involved that you are NOT condoning your friend's lifestyle, but merely being there with him, eating with him, experiencing his life with him...just as Jesus did with sinners. He wasn't handing them a drink, but He did come and be with them at their feasts.
If you are not strong in your faith, if you can't speak of your faith or your belief in love, then you are not strong enough to 'eat the meat of idols' and deal with a situation that touches sin. Those who are strong enough should not condemn you. We each have different abilities and weaknesses. Sometimes keeping apart is the only thing that can keep us pure.
Whether you want go or not seems to be moot to me. Whether God wants you to go is the true question. I would think about things for awhile and then I would pray for direction...if this was my situation.
< Message edited by Auben -- 8/6/2008 2:16:05 PM >
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/6/2008 2:17:33 PM
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CheshireMuse
Posts: 82
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
Well, since I wasn't there, I can't say, now can I? But, of course, neither can you.... The Bible isn't specific on exactly what sort of socializing took place... `
Well, you didn't have to be there to know that anytime Jesus was in the presence of sinners he never condoned their sin.
His attitude towards sin and sinners was exemplified when he was confronted with the woman who commited adultery, and this is what he said to her:
11 "Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more." -John 8
If Jesus showed up at the "wedding" being discussed here, His message to these men would be the same as His message to the woman committing adultery.
However, the fact that they are "marrying" solidifies the fact that they have no intention of "sinning no more." To the contrary, they are celebrating their sin and this wedding is the event they have chosen to do that.
I respect Solo for not wanting to participate in that.
So, do you ditch everyone you come in contact with that sins?
Look, we simply do not agree about what constitutes "condoning sin" on this issue.
We'll just have to agree to disagree...
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Peace,
Muse
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/6/2008 2:33:10 PM
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laura...
Posts: 2713
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I would not attend. If the friendship ended because of my non-attendance...so be it.
Luke 14:25Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. 27And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.
28"Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Will he not first sit down and estimate the cost to see if he has enough money to complete it? 29For if he lays the foundation and is not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, 30saying, 'This fellow began to build and was not able to finish.'
31"Or suppose a king is about to go to war against another king. Will he not first sit down and consider whether he is able with ten thousand men to oppose the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32If he is not able, he will send a delegation while the other is still a long way off and will ask for terms of peace. 33In the same way, any of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be my disciple.
Sometimes losing a friend is the cost of being a disciple of Christ. We are not called to be friends with the world. In fact we are called to be the very opposite.
John 15:18"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.' If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also.
There is no way that anyone can attend a wedding without their support of the union being implied by their attendance unless you are there in order to stand up and say "I do" when asked if anyone objects to the union. That's what weddings are for. That's why guests are invited.
Speaking of the invitation: He knows, in fact both know, that you believe that homosexual lifestyles and same-sex marriages are sinful. They know that you object to such unions. Yet, they sent you an invitation. They are asking you point blank to deny your convictions. I would not for one moment see that invitation as anything less than their attempt to get you to compromise your faith. Yes, they will rejoice if you come to their union ceremony. They will rejoice because your presence will help to legitimize their sinful choice.
A friend does not support and rejoice in the sins of their friend.
Proverbs 27:5 Better is open rebuke than hidden love. 6 Wounds from a friend can be trusted, but an enemy multiplies kisses.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/6/2008 2:35:59 PM
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Kat_D
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CheshireMuse
So, do you ditch everyone you come in contact with that sins?
No. As a matter of fact I am still close to two gay friends from my life before Christ. One just had surgery and I reached out to him in love and support as I would always do for a friend. They certainly know how I feel about their lifestyle....and, more importantly, how God feels about their lifestyle, but I still love them and they love me. However, if they called and invited me to their "wedding," I would decline. Frankly, knowing my beliefs, I find it highly doubtful that they would invite me...they respect how I feel. There is a way to get that point across without ruining the relationship, kwim?
I have a pot smoking friend and I wouldn't go to a pot party with him. I have a fornicating friend, and I wouldn't spend the night in her home if her boyfriend was there sharing her bed. I have an alcoholic friend and I wouldn't go to a bar with him.
None of that means I don't love them...it means I will not celebrate or participate in their sin with them.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/6/2008 2:40:05 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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I would not go. I just can't see how attending a ceremony could be taken to NOT construe support and celebration. And since I couldn't support or celebrate such a thing, I would not be able to go.
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Ziva: It is possible. I do not remember all their names.
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/6/2008 2:44:10 PM
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CheshireMuse
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
It is like going to a Satanic ritual. Your very presence there speaks volumes. And gay unions are more of a threat these days that Satanic rituals.
A threat to what?
Christianity? Not hardly....
To the "sanctity" of marriage? Too late - heterosexuals have pretty much trashed the sanctity of marriage well before the homosexuals got their chance.... If you're really concerned with the sanctity of marriage, a good place to start is within the Christian community, since Christians have the highest divorce rate (and within that grouping, Southern Baptists rank #1) of any other group in the nation.
Look, I don't agree with homosexuality. I believe it is a sin, as the Bible says it is... however, saying that its a "threat" that will somehow bring down the American way of life, Christianity or marriage in general, is, well... (pardon me) sorta ridiculous.
Yes, homosexuality is a sin. So is lying, cheating, stealing, gossiping, drunkeness, slandering, back-biting..... Ironically, I've never seen anyone post a thread asking if they should boycott the wedding of a gossip (because, after all, by going to that wedding, you would be condoning the sin of gossiping)....
I was always taught that there were no degrees of sin. Each is as black and ugly as the next, regardless of our feelings on the matter. So, gossip is just as horrible as homosexuality... Lying is just as horrible as adultery... etc and so on...
"It is not animal sacrifices I want, but kindness." ~Jesus
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Peace,
Muse
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/6/2008 2:46:12 PM
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CheshireMuse
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: CheshireMuse
So, do you ditch everyone you come in contact with that sins?
No. As a matter of fact I am still close to two gay friends from my life before Christ. One just had surgery and I reached out to him in love and support as I would always do for a friend. They certainly know how I feel about their lifestyle....and, more importantly, how God feels about their lifestyle, but I still love them and they love me. However, if they called and invited me to their "wedding," I would decline. Frankly, knowing my beliefs, I find it highly doubtful that they would invite me...they respect how I feel. There is a way to get that point across without ruining the relationship, kwim?
I have a pot smoking friend and I wouldn't go to a pot party with him. I have a fornicating friend, and I wouldn't spend the night in her home if her boyfriend was there sharing her bed. I have an alcoholic friend and I wouldn't go to a bar with him.
None of that means I don't love them...it means I will not celebrate or participate in their sin with them.
Good for you.
I disagree on what constitutes the term "condoning sin".....
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Peace,
Muse
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/6/2008 2:47:34 PM
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sunshinesoprano
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Okay, lest we go way OT here, because I know there's a thread for this somewhere....and before the mods shut it down...let's keep to my original question, not the discussion of the "lifestyle" itself....
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/6/2008 2:48:45 PM
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CheshireMuse
Posts: 82
Joined: 8/23/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sunshinesoprano
Okay, lest we go way OT here, because I know there's a thread for this somewhere....and before the mods shut it down...let's keep to my original question, not the discussion of the "lifestyle" itself....
Agreed... my apologies for derailing the thread....
Anyhoo.... back to the original question? You should probably stay home...
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Muse
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/6/2008 2:52:22 PM
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laura...
Posts: 2713
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From: NE Ohio
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quote:
This reminds me of another situation Paul detailed. Some Christians were eating meat that had been offered to idols. Others were angered by this clear breaking of God's law. How could they have anything to do with something which had been a part of sin? Paul very clearly detailed that the food was food. If one is strong enough to see food as food, then Christianity did not shun them; however, not all are strong enough. We need to have sensitivity to our brothers and not cause them to stumble with our strength.
Yet Acts 15 says:
19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
Let's look at the context of Paul's advise to "eat or not eat":
Romans 14
The Weak and the Strong
1Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
5One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
9For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. 11It is written:
" 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord,
'every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will confess to God.' "[a] 12So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.
13Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. 14As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean. 15If your brother is distressed because of what you eat, you are no longer acting in love. Do not by your eating destroy your brother for whom Christ died. 16Do not allow what you consider good to be spoken of as evil. 17For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.
19Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification. 20Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. 21It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
22So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves. 23But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
Nothing there about meat sacrificed to idols. It is eating meat vs. vegetarianism.
1 Corinthians 8
Food Sacrificed to Idols
1Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3But the man who loves God is known by God.
4So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"), 6yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
7But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.
9Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? 11So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.
Here Paul teaches that idols are nothing and eating food sacrificed to idols isn't going to affect you or your salvation. However, don't do so if your doing so is going to legitimize and embolden others to eat what has been sacrificed to idols thus possibly destroying them.
Attending a same-sex unity ceremony will only legitimize such unions and embolden others to commit to such unions.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/6/2008 3:04:41 PM
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bluestone
Posts: 2934
Joined: 2/25/2008
From: United States of America
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CheshireMuse
A threat to what?
Christianity? Not hardly....
To the "sanctity" of marriage? Too late - heterosexuals have pretty much trashed the sanctity of marriage well before the homosexuals got their chance.... If you're really concerned with the sanctity of marriage, a good place to start is within the Christian community, since Christians have the highest divorce rate (and within that grouping, Southern Baptists rank #1) of any other group in the nation.
Look, I don't agree with homosexuality. I believe it is a sin, as the Bible says it is... however, saying that its a "threat" that will somehow bring down the American way of life, Christianity or marriage in general, is, well... (pardon me) sorta ridiculous.
Yes, homosexuality is a sin. So is lying, cheating, stealing, gossiping, drunkeness, slandering, back-biting..... Ironically, I've never seen anyone post a thread asking if they should boycott the wedding of a gossip (because, after all, by going to that wedding, you would be condoning the sin of gossiping)....
I was always taught that there were no degrees of sin. Each is as black and ugly as the next, regardless of our feelings on the matter. So, gossip is just as horrible as homosexuality... Lying is just as horrible as adultery... etc and so on...
"It is not animal sacrifices I want, but kindness." ~Jesus
It is not a sin for a gossip to get married. Gossipping with or hanging around while the gossip is going on would be wrong. apples and oranges on that one.
While all sin is unacceptable to God, some have more horrific consequences to us Earth dwellers than others. Approving of(and by attending you are obviously approving) this union is approving of perversion, approving of fake marriages and approving of sin.
_____________________________
I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/6/2008 3:35:17 PM
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manda59
Posts: 5437
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
Approving of(and by attending you are obviously approving) this union is approving of perversion, approving of fake marriages and approving of sin.
I'm with CheshireMuse, I disagree what condoning/approving is.
To those of you who wouldn't go, would you also not go to a non-Christian wedding (ie a civil ceremony) of, say, pagans, atheists, just ordinary non-believers etc?
_____________________________
"That's what I would say as well."
Mrs Wifey, August 2008.
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/6/2008 3:38:47 PM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 380
Joined: 2/16/2006
From: Near Seattle Washington
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quote:
To those of you who wouldn't go, would you also not go to a non-Christian wedding (ie a civil ceremony) of, say, pagans, atheists, just ordinary non-believers etc?
Manda, I think you're comparing apples and oranges. The problem here is that two guys are getting unionized. I think many here believe that going to the wedding would be approving of the union there for condoning in a way homosexual marriage.
G
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The Will of God never takes you to where the Grace of God will not protect you
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/6/2008 3:41:30 PM
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Jenny-Fair
Posts: 6644
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: WA
Status: online
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quote:
The problem here is that two guys are getting unionize
Exactly. The ceremony shouldn't be happening to begin with. It would be like attending the marriage of a 10 year old girl and a 50 year old man. The event itself is wrong, and is a celebration of a wrong relationship.
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RE: To Attend or Not to Attend? - 8/6/2008 3:41:47 PM
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laura...
Posts: 2713
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: NE Ohio
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
Approving of(and by attending you are obviously approving) this union is approving of perversion, approving of fake marriages and approving of sin.
I'm with CheshireMuse, I disagree what condoning/approving is.
To those of you who wouldn't go, would you also not go to a non-Christian wedding (ie a civil ceremony) of, say, pagans, atheists, just ordinary non-believers etc?
It is not a sin for pagans, atheists or ordinary non-believers to get married as long as they are not a same-sex couple. A civil marriage ceremony is not a sin as long as, again, they are not a same-sex couple.
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This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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it would be the other way round for me. I'd find it harder to stand around chatting and having to look like I'm enjoying the party. I'd be ok standing quietly at the back, silently praying, and leaving quite promptly afterwards, but not with making merry etc.
