RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry (Full Version)

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psende -> RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry (8/6/2008 11:59:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DreadPirateRandy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kath

Saying sorry does not mean anything.


I agree.

Sorry is a void word that doesn't mend or solve anything.


"I'm sorry" means as much a 'forgive me." Both are as powerful as the receiver allows. And in my mind, they mean pretty much the same thing, with 'forgive me," being a bit more powerful in showing remorse.

The household in which I grew up was one in which immediate forgiveness was granted when the words "I'm sorry" were spoken. It was also one in which an apology was always meant.

To this day, when someone says "I'm sorry" to me, thats the end of it.

When I read the above quote, I'm kind of taken aback, because with my family, those simple words have maintained harmony, love, and appreciation for each other. Boy, I'm 54 and am still discovering blessings I took for granted as a kid.



ta_mosquito -> RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry (8/7/2008 12:03:28 AM)

Good words, psende. I agree.



doinkdom -> RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry (8/7/2008 11:13:53 AM)

Does the bible tell us to ask for or to give forgiveness or to say I'm sorry?

just asking...not preaching...cause I do get the difference and also the similarities between the words in our culture.



ta_mosquito -> RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry (8/7/2008 12:09:16 PM)

As far as I can recall, it tells us to make things right (be reconciled) with our brother. It doesn't give us certain words to say either way.



doinkdom -> RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry (8/7/2008 12:38:39 PM)

that's very true and please bare with me as I talk this through to myself...cause it may help me to talk with someone else...

If we are to be reconciled to one another as we are reconciled to God, then what does that mean? We may understand that it's forgiveness, regardless of the vocabulary, but does the other person? The one we are asking or giving forgiveness.

Since we have God's example of forgiveness in the bible...I just can't see myself saying "oops God...didn't mean to hurt so-n-so, sorry" being adequate when I should be asking God's forgiveness and then the person's forgiveness for my lack of compassion or whatever the root is.

I'm not really talking about the accident of bumping into one another or some other physical malady...but rather the relational side of ourselves.

Wrestling also with the whole apology aspect, since much of the time (and certainly not always as I'm sure there are tons of examples) the apology is immediately followed by a "but" statement.

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, BUT I was trying to do xyz. The "but" usually negates the "sorry."

Anyways...still processing...

my head hurts now



humbleinspirit -> RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry (8/7/2008 9:23:10 PM)

WOW, now this is a new one for me. I always thought that saying I'm sorry was an admission of guilt and that one would hope that the other would forgive also.



Liveloved -> RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry (8/7/2008 10:26:20 PM)

What an interesting thread!

I won't add to the confusion (for once) but I still want to know:

Tricia, did you deliberately whack him?????[:D]



ta_mosquito -> RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry (8/7/2008 10:54:22 PM)

LOL! I can honestly say I've never deliberately whacked my husband in the face. [8D] (OK, I don't recall ever mistakenly whacking him in the face, either.) I have deliberately (but not painfully, of course) whacked him in the arm, leg, side... and I've accidentally whacked him in various places - I'm the type that moves first and looks later, and I get the bruises on myself to prove it!



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry (8/8/2008 2:29:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kath
Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry

Do you agree with that statement? Why or why not?

The theory is Christians know that one must ask forgiveness for a grievance. "Heathens" either don't know it or do not understand what asking forgiveness means.

According to this theory, Christians cannot say I'm sorry for X, they are to say will you forgive me for X. Saying sorry does not mean anything.


I am curious if other Christians feel this way, or if this person is the only one who has come up with it. I would think that one could just parrot the phrase Forgive me because they know saying sorry would not be good enough for this person.

I never knew of the two being separate! I do know of the two not being coupled with proper action, but that's not what this thread is about. I guess I have never said "I'm sorry" without the forgiveness side of it. When I come to G-d with a sin-issue, I am sorry, and I express that to Him, then ask for forgiveness, prmising repentance with His help and guidance.

Two Scriptures that come to mind:
Mark 11:25 "Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions. 26 ["But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your transgressions."]

Matthew 6:9 . . .`Our Father who is in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. 10 `Your kingdom come. Your will be done, On earth as it is in heaven. 11 `Give us this day our daily bread. 12 `And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

I looked up "sorry" on CW's Bible helps, and it is what we would expect: regret.



Cloak -> RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry (8/8/2008 10:18:06 PM)

My take is that there are many people (both Christians and non-Christians) who are downright Proud.

When non-Christians don't say I am sorry, that is understandable and expectable; BUT when someone who calls themselves Christians hurt me and don't have the gut to say "please forgive me for hurting you" that is something I cannot understand or fathom and really bug me that I start to question that person's authenticity and their walk with God.

I can't stand Proud "Claimed Christians"! They drive me nuts!!! [:'(]



Kath -> RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry (8/8/2008 11:44:23 PM)

So are you saying you would not accept an "I'm sorry" from a Christian, they need to ask you to forgive them?



armydude -> RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry (8/8/2008 11:45:11 PM)

I would. But I wouldn't automatically assume that they meant it.



DreadPirateRandy -> RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry (8/9/2008 1:04:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: psende

"I'm sorry" means as much a 'forgive me."


"I'm sorry" is an exclamation indicating an apology. To forgive is to stop blaming and to grant/receive forgiveness.

That's the problem with sorry. Sorry is just indicating an apology, it doesn't stop and say, "I'll stop blaming and take the full responsibility. Forgive me".



MindySue69 -> RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry (8/9/2008 8:46:11 AM)

I think there'd be a lot less sorrow and frustration in the world if people would stop trying to over analyze stuff like this and just take it at face value.

Does the bible tell us to pick each other's words apart ?

I think this is just another symptom of the pop psychology mumbo jumbo that is infiltrating the church and making Christians weak and ineffective.

Lots of times I have been afraid to say something or do something because I was certain someone would interpret it the wrong way and think I was doing something for the wrong motives.

It's ridiculous. If someone says "I'm sorry I hurt you" to me, it will mean the same thing as "Please forgive me for hurting you."

Semantics. I'm sure more relationships have been destroyed by it than anyone wants to guess..

"Sure, he SAYS this, but he really MEANS that..."

"I don't believe that she really meant this, she probably isn't sorry at all..."

blah blah blah.[:'(]



humbleinspirit -> RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry (8/9/2008 8:59:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kath

So are you saying you would not accept an "I'm sorry" from a Christian, they need to ask you to forgive them?


Now this makes me wonder about something. I do not know if this is topic for a new thread or not, but if someone offends you several times and then you ask for forgiveness each time, do you hold that wrong against them after so many times or do you forgive each time (70x7) instead?



URForgiven -> RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry (8/9/2008 9:42:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kath

So are you saying you would not accept an "I'm sorry" from a Christian, they need to ask you to forgive them?


Now this makes me wonder about something. I do not know if this is topic for a new thread or not, but if someone offends you several times and then you ask for forgiveness each time, do you hold that wrong against them after so many times or do you forgive each time (70x7) instead?


Our forgiveness of others is not dependent upon their asking for it or receiving it. We forgive because He has forgiven us...

Colossians 3:13
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

Peace



Cloak -> RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry (8/9/2008 10:06:36 AM)

Yes I would forgive provided they are Genuine and Sincere in their apology. [:)]



armydude -> RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry (8/9/2008 10:07:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cloak

Yes I would forgive provided they are Genuine and Sincere in their apology. [:)]
But since only God knows the heart, how would you know if they're sincere?

I say forgive and leave the rest up to God. He can handle it better than I can.



Cloak -> RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry (8/9/2008 10:09:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven

quote:

ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kath

So are you saying you would not accept an "I'm sorry" from a Christian, they need to ask you to forgive them?


Now this makes me wonder about something. I do not know if this is topic for a new thread or not, but if someone offends you several times and then you ask for forgiveness each time, do you hold that wrong against them after so many times or do you forgive each time (70x7) instead?


Our forgiveness of others is not dependent upon their asking for it or receiving it. We forgive because He has forgiven us...

Colossians 3:13
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

Peace


While this is True, it should be proceeded by Change; otherwise it would just keep repeating itself over and over and...and they would walk all over us.



Cloak -> RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry (8/9/2008 10:23:33 AM)

Funnily enough Kath, I have started a thread that tackles almost the same subject! Is this Telepathy between us or divine thing??? [sm=angelic.gif][sm=icon_smile_idea.gif]



URForgiven -> RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry (8/9/2008 10:43:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cloak

quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven

quote:

ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kath

So are you saying you would not accept an "I'm sorry" from a Christian, they need to ask you to forgive them?


Now this makes me wonder about something. I do not know if this is topic for a new thread or not, but if someone offends you several times and then you ask for forgiveness each time, do you hold that wrong against them after so many times or do you forgive each time (70x7) instead?


Our forgiveness of others is not dependent upon their asking for it or receiving it. We forgive because He has forgiven us...

Colossians 3:13
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

Peace


While this is True, it should be proceeded by Change; otherwise it would just keep repeating itself over and over and...and they would walk all over us.


Well, I guess you would know better than God eh? No where, under the new covenant, does God speak of the other persons being deserving of our forgiveness. In the same way that we are not deserving of Christs forgiveness of us. We forgive others with no thought of the consequences to ourselves. <--- That is a period

If they walk all over you, than so be it. They did much worse to the One who has forgiven us.

Peace



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry (8/9/2008 10:59:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit
Now this makes me wonder about something. I do not know if this is topic for a new thread or not, but if someone offends you several times and then you ask for forgiveness each time, do you hold that wrong against them after so many times or do you forgive each time (70x7) instead?

Had something like this with a relative, except they never said they were sorry or asked forgiveness. One still tries. It just ended up that I moved a couple thousand miles away, but they harassed by mail and phone! Yay! [:D]



Cloak -> RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry (8/9/2008 11:49:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cloak

quote:

ORIGINAL: URForgiven

quote:

ORIGINAL: humbleinspirit

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kath

So are you saying you would not accept an "I'm sorry" from a Christian, they need to ask you to forgive them?


Now this makes me wonder about something. I do not know if this is topic for a new thread or not, but if someone offends you several times and then you ask for forgiveness each time, do you hold that wrong against them after so many times or do you forgive each time (70x7) instead?


Our forgiveness of others is not dependent upon their asking for it or receiving it. We forgive because He has forgiven us...

Colossians 3:13
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

Peace


While this is True, it should be proceeded by Change; otherwise it would just keep repeating itself over and over and...and they would walk all over us.


Well, I guess you would know better than God eh? No where, under the new covenant, does God speak of the other persons being deserving of our forgiveness. In the same way that we are not deserving of Christs forgiveness of us. We forgive others with no thought of the consequences to ourselves. <--- That is a period

If they walk all over you, than so be it. They did much worse to the One who has forgiven us.

Peace


I think you misunderstood what I stated. Yes we Are to forgive them 70 x 7. However, if the offender is a serious Christian, they need to sincerely to Change otherwise they would remain stuck and never change.

While Jesus asked us to forgive; He never said that we are to forget!



Liveloved -> RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry (8/9/2008 6:05:52 PM)

quote:

Colossians 3:13
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.


But wait a minute. . . (or maybe I'll have to wait MORE than a minute?!)

Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

Where does the Lord forgive apart from repentance?

And in the story of 70 x 7, it says repeatedly that repentance precedes forgiveness. "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times saying, 'I repent', forgive him". (Luke 17:3-4)

So if we forgive as the Lord forgives and as He says to forgive, doesn't it appear that repentance is a necessary condition?

What say you?

And BTW Tricia, I'm glad to hear you're not abusing your spouse. And I know about the self inflicted bruises. Lack of coordination is dangerous.[:)]



URForgiven -> RE: Christians ask forgiveness, "Heathens" say I'm sorry (8/9/2008 6:29:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

quote:

Colossians 3:13
Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.


Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

quote:

Where does the Lord forgive apart from repentance?


On the cross.



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