RE: Awwwww....Michelle just wants to be Mom!

RE: Awwwww....Michelle just wants to be Mom! (Full Version)

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tafkam -> RE: Awwwww....Michelle just wants to be Mom! (8/12/2008 12:41:39 PM)
If Ms. Obama just wants to be a mom, then again, she should just stop inserting herself into her husband's campaign. Or does that make too much sense?

Peter_Gunn -> RE: Awwwww....Michelle just wants to be Mom! (8/12/2008 12:55:51 PM)
Waaaaayyyyy too much sense! [:D] Which is why I think she's just as deceitful as he is. I don't trust a word that drips out of her mouth!

huskarine -> RE: Awwwww....Michelle just wants to be Mom! (8/12/2008 1:15:54 PM)
agree with above post...a good politician will say exactly what you want to hear for the moment, even change their character... a good leader is always the same...and does not lie even during the midst of the toughest storms... obviously, Michelle Obama interjected how she represents herself with words instead of actions...

SwedishCovenant -> RE: Awwwww....Michelle just wants to be Mom! (8/12/2008 1:50:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud quote: Post 55 replies to the points Huskarine raised in post 54. Actually, I think you mean 52 - and He didn't say anything about adoption there. Yes, 52 - and if by...: "WE need to be responsible for them, and I for one will gladly bear their cross, take their shame, and "punish" myself for the baby's cost, if it means the baby has a chance to live. " he didn't mean adooption: A) What did he mean? Orphanages? Foster care? Forced parenting? Be specific. B) Why did he, you, and everyone else on this thread respond to him as if all of us DID think it meant adoption?

Jhud -> RE: Awwwww....Michelle just wants to be Mom! (8/12/2008 1:56:29 PM)
quote: "WE need to be responsible for them, and I for one will gladly bear their cross, take their shame, and "punish" myself for the baby's cost, if it means the baby has a chance to live. " he didn't mean adooption: A) What did he mean? Orphanages? Foster care? Forced parenting? Be specific. B) Why did he, you, and everyone else on this thread respond to him as if all of us DID think it meant adoption? Financial support? A willingness to sacrifice time, energy and resources? But it's really irrelevant because the notion of the moral good or evil of abortion is not predicated on whether or not anyone else is willing to adopt children (even though millions of course are). It is either a good or evil thing on its own. The argument that abortion can't be seen as evil unless one is personally willing to adopt a child is as specious as saying one can't oppose Nazism unless one is willing to marry someone of Jewish decent.

huskarine -> RE: Awwwww....Michelle just wants to be Mom! (8/12/2008 1:58:08 PM)
Swedishcovenant, of course I mean adoption for that time... obviously, if we practice abstinence and planned parenthood then adoption can be the last of choices (abortion being completely out of the picture). that would be a preferrable reality. but you are still not arguing my points. just agree with me and end this please, instead of personally attacking. and no, this isn't a personal attack here. it's a redirection back to my point: promoting responsibility across the board.

SwedishCovenant -> RE: Awwwww....Michelle just wants to be Mom! (8/12/2008 2:00:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud quote: "WE need to be responsible for them, and I for one will gladly bear their cross, take their shame, and "punish" myself for the baby's cost, if it means the baby has a chance to live. " he didn't mean adooption: A) What did he mean? Orphanages? Foster care? Forced parenting? Be specific. B) Why did he, you, and everyone else on this thread respond to him as if all of us DID think it meant adoption? Financial support? A willingness to sacrifice time, energy and resources? But it's really irrelevant because the notion of the moral good or evil of abortion is not predicated on whether or not anyone else is willing to adopt children (even though millions of course are). It is either a good or evil thing on its own. The argument that abortion can't be seen as evil unless one is personally willing to adopt a child is as specious as saying one can't oppose Nazism unless one is willing to marry someone of Jewish decent. But PROPOSING adoption as solution WHEN ONE IS UNWILLING TO ADOPT ONESELF is sheer hypocrisy. Let's touch on the other possibilities you mentioned: Financial support, donation of time, energy, resources. Nice and vague - do you mean donations through charities, through churches, a new bureaucracy/socialism? WHO do you expect to do the work, if not yourself - and WHY do you expect everyoine else to pick up the load you are not willing to pick up yourself? Suggesting someone else work to solve the problem is easy - actually solving it is hard work which, alas, there have been no concrete solutions proposed here.

Jhud -> RE: Awwwww....Michelle just wants to be Mom! (8/12/2008 2:07:53 PM)
quote: But PROPOSING adoption as solution WHEN ONE IS UNWILLING TO ADOPT ONESELF is sheer hypocrisy. It may be hypocrisy (assuming that the person is truly unwilling, and simply not able), but it is not an argument for abortion. A drunk can argue against drunken driving and be right despite his tendencies. quote: Let's touch on the other possibilities you mentioned: Financial support, donation of time, energy, resources. Nice and vague - do you mean donations through charities, through churches, a new bureaucracy/socialism? WHO do you expect to do the work, if not yourself - and WHY do you expect everyoine else to pick up the load you are not willing to pick up yourself? What are you talking about? You don't know me nor do you know what 'load' I have taken on - so if you can't discuss this in principle, I suggest you step away from the discussion because you are moving into territory about which you know little. quote: Suggesting someone else work to solve the problem is easy - actually solving it is hard work which, alas, there have been no concrete solutions proposed here. I made no suggestions or solutions - I simply pointed out that your tu quoque is not a legitimate rebuttal.

huskarine -> RE: Awwwww....Michelle just wants to be Mom! (8/12/2008 2:08:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud quote: "WE need to be responsible for them, and I for one will gladly bear their cross, take their shame, and "punish" myself for the baby's cost, if it means the baby has a chance to live. " he didn't mean adooption: A) What did he mean? Orphanages? Foster care? Forced parenting? Be specific. B) Why did he, you, and everyone else on this thread respond to him as if all of us DID think it meant adoption? Financial support? A willingness to sacrifice time, energy and resources? But it's really irrelevant because the notion of the moral good or evil of abortion is not predicated on whether or not anyone else is willing to adopt children (even though millions of course are). It is either a good or evil thing on its own. The argument that abortion can't be seen as evil unless one is personally willing to adopt a child is as specious as saying one can't oppose Nazism unless one is willing to marry someone of Jewish decent. But PROPOSING adoption as solution WHEN ONE IS UNWILLING TO ADOPT ONESELF is sheer hypocrisy. Let's touch on the other possibilities you mentioned: Financial support, donation of time, energy, resources. Nice and vague - do you mean donations through charities, through churches, a new bureaucracy/socialism? WHO do you expect to do the work, if not yourself - and WHY do you expect everyoine else to pick up the load you are not willing to pick up yourself? Suggesting someone else work to solve the problem is easy - actually solving it is hard work which, alas, there have been no concrete solutions proposed here. ok...I am unable to adopt at this point (as I reclaim for the 3rd time)... "WHY do you expect everyone else to pick up the load you are not willing to pick up yourself? " -you should be the banner holder of this at abortion clinics. maybe your ideals are that pregnant women should end up being mothers. but lets talk about abortion, because obviously you claim that there are no concrete solutions (i.e. adoption, abstinence, planned-parenthood)...so is murdering the unborn child in the womb a credible, concrete solution that is of good moral value?

SwedishCovenant -> RE: Awwwww....Michelle just wants to be Mom! (8/12/2008 2:11:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud quote: But PROPOSING adoption as solution WHEN ONE IS UNWILLING TO ADOPT ONESELF is sheer hypocrisy. It may be hypocrisy (assuming that the person is truly unwilling, and simply not able), but it is not an argument for abortion. A drunk can argue against drunken driving and be right despite his tendencies. quote: Let's touch on the other possibilities you mentioned: Financial support, donation of time, energy, resources. Nice and vague - do you mean donations through charities, through churches, a new bureaucracy/socialism? WHO do you expect to do the work, if not yourself - and WHY do you expect everyoine else to pick up the load you are not willing to pick up yourself? What are you talking about? You don't know me nor do you know what 'load' I have taken on - so if you can't discuss this in principle, I suggest you step away from the discussion because you are moving into territory about which you know little. quote: Suggesting someone else work to solve the problem is easy - actually solving it is hard work which, alas, there have been no concrete solutions proposed here. I made no suggestions or solutions - I simply pointed out that your tu quoque is not a legitimate rebuttal. Evasion, false analogy, false indignation, and outright fleeing from the issue, misuse of a technical term (flawed appeal to force). Cut to the chase, Jhud - what are YOU willing to do to end the abortion holocaust in this country?

Jhud -> RE: Awwwww....Michelle just wants to be Mom! (8/12/2008 2:17:58 PM)
quote: Evasion, false analogy, false indignation, and outright fleeing from the issue, misuse of a technical term (flawed appeal to force). I don't think you know what tu quoque means here - but nice try. A little education - Tu Quoque is a very common fallacy in which one attempts to defend oneself or another from criticism by turning the critique back against the accuser. This is a classic Red Herring since whether the accuser is guilty of the same, or a similar, wrong is irrelevant to the truth of the original charge. However, as a diversionary tactic, Tu Quoque can be very effective, since the accuser is put on the defensive, and frequently feels compelled to defend against the accusation. Ironically, this seems to have been the totality of your argument since you joined us on this forum. Can you imagine? An entire discussion that is one rambling logical fallacy. quote: Cut to the chase, Jhud - what are YOU willing to do to end the abortion holocaust in this country? Well, for starters, not vote for Obama.

davemiller7 -> RE: Awwwww....Michelle just wants to be Mom! (8/12/2008 2:42:57 PM)
Got news for you. I'm unwilling to adopt, myself. I'm too old to adopt a little one. But that doesn't exclude me from proposing that others should adopt. And it's not hypocrisy, either. I brought two babies into the world and raised them. Don't preach to me your gobbledygook. -Dave quote: ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant But PROPOSING adoption as solution WHEN ONE IS UNWILLING TO ADOPT ONESELF is sheer hypocrisy.

SwedishCovenant -> RE: Awwwww....Michelle just wants to be Mom! (8/12/2008 3:09:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud quote: Cut to the chase, Jhud - what are YOU willing to do to end the abortion holocaust in this country? Well, for starters, not vote for Obama. IOW, no specific action that cost you a dime, a minute, or an erg of exertion.

SwedishCovenant -> RE: Awwwww....Michelle just wants to be Mom! (8/12/2008 3:16:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: davemiller7 Got news for you. I'm unwilling to adopt, myself. I'm too old to adopt a little one. But that doesn't exclude me from proposing that others should adopt. And it's not hypocrisy, either. I brought two babies into the world and raised them. Don't preach to me your gobbledygook. -Dave quote: ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant But PROPOSING adoption as solution WHEN ONE IS UNWILLING TO ADOPT ONESELF is sheer hypocrisy. Unlike an earlier poster, who claimed (incorrectly, as it turned out) that he was TOO YOUNG to adopt, you at least have the legitimate argument that you are too old - over 45 in most states? It seems that the pro-life crowd seems to focused on one thing - ending abortion - and have given no real thought as to what will replace it. So far on this thread, the only answers anyone has posted have been: "I'll do something about it it - when I'm old enough" "I'll propose that somebody else do something about it" "Nothing - not my problem" "I won't even deign to answer that question (probably cause he doesn't have an answer) Appoint USSC justices to reverse Roe v Wade, ban abortion, arrest and incarcerate the back-alley butchers that will take over the 'market'...maybe the soi-disant pro-life movement can acheive these things. And I am not opposed to any of it. WHAT THEN? What are you going to do about the thousands - millions? - of unwanted, unplanned, family-crippling babies that a prohibition is going to bring into this world? I haven't heard any useful ideas on how to deal with that. Does anyone HAVE any ideas?

Jhud -> RE: Awwwww....Michelle just wants to be Mom! (8/12/2008 3:22:54 PM)
quote: IOW, no specific action that cost you a dime, a minute, or an erg of exertion. Well no, I am also not doing things that would lead to an abortion, I am teaching my kids about why abortion is wrong, I personally donate to pro-life organizations that help pregnant women who have no resources of their own, I have personally supported people with children who found themselves without a means of support to the point of having them live in my home. What have you done?

Peter_Gunn -> RE: Awwwww....Michelle just wants to be Mom! (8/12/2008 3:23:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant ...the abortion holocaust in this country? I'm glad you see it for what it is. Now why would you be in favor of it? And you may want to consider taking this "argument" (sic) over to one of the abortion threads. Here...I'll help you get there... http://forums.crosswalk.com/Abortion-Pro_life_or_Pro-Choice%3f/m_3524925/mpage_15/tm.htm#3663887

SwedishCovenant -> RE: Awwwww....Michelle just wants to be Mom! (8/12/2008 3:30:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn quote: ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant ...the abortion holocaust in this country? I'm glad you see it for what it is. Now why would you be in favor of it? And you may want to consider taking this "argument" (sic) over to one of the abortion threads. Here...I'll help you get there... http://forums.crosswalk.com/Abortion-Pro_life_or_Pro-Choice%3f/m_3524925/mpage_15/tm.htm#3663887 Argument - 2a) A course of reasoning aimied at demonstrating the truth or falsehood of something.

SwedishCovenant -> RE: Awwwww....Michelle just wants to be Mom! (8/12/2008 3:32:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant quote: ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn quote: ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant ...the abortion holocaust in this country? I'm glad you see it for what it is. Now why would you be in favor of it? And you may want to consider taking this "argument" (sic) over to one of the abortion threads. Here...I'll help you get there... http://forums.crosswalk.com/Abortion-Pro_life_or_Pro-Choice%3f/m_3524925/mpage_15/tm.htm#3663887 Argument - 2a) A course of reasoning aimied at demonstrating the truth or falsehood of something. Oh, and by the way? When you assert that I am "FOR" abortion, you could not be more wrong - or more delibrately insulting. Shame on you.

Peter_Gunn -> RE: Awwwww....Michelle just wants to be Mom! (8/12/2008 3:35:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant Oh, and by the way? When you assert that I am "FOR" abortion, you could not be more wrong - or more delibrately insulting. Shame on you. Uhhh...what were you wanting everyone to think? I don't believe in wearing a mask for the sake of argument. I also don't shift with the wind...and there's strong wording in the Bible against that.

SwedishCovenant -> RE: Awwwww....Michelle just wants to be Mom! (8/12/2008 3:43:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn quote: ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant Oh, and by the way? When you assert that I am "FOR" abortion, you could not be more wrong - or more delibrately insulting. Shame on you. Uhhh...what were you wanting everyone to think? I don't believe in wearing a mask for the sake of argument. I also don't shift with the wind...and there's strong wording in the Bible against that. Try reading my posts on this thread. You will see that I have consistently posted an anti-abortion position but pointed out - and which the opposition has yet to acknowledge, let alone address - that banning abortion is going to lead to a whole series of resulting events for which NO ONE is prepared to deal with.

Jhud -> RE: Awwwww....Michelle just wants to be Mom! (8/12/2008 3:58:10 PM)
quote: Try reading my posts on this thread. You will see that I have consistently posted an anti-abortion position but pointed out - and which the opposition has yet to acknowledge, let alone address - that banning abortion is going to lead to a whole series of resulting events for which NO ONE is prepared to deal with. And what have you done to prevent abortions?

SwedishCovenant -> RE: Awwwww....Michelle just wants to be Mom! (8/12/2008 3:59:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud quote: Try reading my posts on this thread. You will see that I have consistently posted an anti-abortion position but pointed out - and which the opposition has yet to acknowledge, let alone address - that banning abortion is going to lead to a whole series of resulting events for which NO ONE is prepared to deal with. And what have you done to prevent abortions? Asked and answered, councilour.

Jhud -> RE: Awwwww....Michelle just wants to be Mom! (8/12/2008 4:00:44 PM)
quote: Asked and answered, councilour. Where was this answer?

SwedishCovenant -> RE: Awwwww....Michelle just wants to be Mom! (8/12/2008 4:04:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant quote: ORIGINAL: Jhud quote: Post 55 replies to the points Huskarine raised in post 54. Actually, I think you mean 52 - and He didn't say anything about adoption there. Yes, 52 - and if by...: "WE need to be responsible for them, and I for one will gladly bear their cross, take their shame, and "punish" myself for the baby's cost, if it means the baby has a chance to live. " he didn't mean adooption: A) What did he mean? Orphanages? Foster care? Forced parenting? Be specific. B) Why did he, you, and everyone else on this thread respond to him as if all of us DID think it meant adoption? Anybody got an actual answer to this one? I would really like to know what the official pro-life position is in regards to dealing with the affects of the success of their endeavours.

Jhud -> RE: Awwwww....Michelle just wants to be Mom! (8/12/2008 4:06:53 PM)
quote: Anybody got an actual answer to this one? I would really like to know what the official pro-life position is in regards to dealing with the affects of the success of their endeavours. You are avoiding the question. What have you done?

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