RE: Should Pastors Step Down From The Ministry Because of His Children's Sins?
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RE: Should Pastors Step Down From The Ministry Because ... - 8/7/2008 11:33:23 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
This whole qestion brings to mind Eli, and his sons. All Eli, had to do was to deal with them, and get the situation under control.
But upon reading that Scripture, it appears that Eli was a partaker in their initial sin -- the initializing one he should have quashed. It appears to me that they took the best-tasting meat, the part of the sacrifice that had the fat. And when they died for offering "strange fire" -- a sacrifice to our G-d that was mixed with pagan ways -- they died. When Eli got the news, he fell over and his neck broke, because his body was too fat to take that kind of action. He would not likely have been that big if he had not eaten the prize meat his sons took from the altar. He, being a priest, knew the difference and he knew better.
What kind of faith in G-d did it take for Hannah to leave her beloved son in the midst of all that, especially when her son slept in the temple. People were not to sleep in the Temple. So were they sleeping in the Temple or a temple, and if it was not the Temple, what were they doing in a temple? And whose temple was it, then?
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Should Pastors Step Down From The Ministry Because ... - 8/8/2008 12:29:00 AM
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gaylel1
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RC, you said in your post that the Elder Graham should have stepped down because he turned his back from the Lord when he was an adult--now, FC was what you called a prodical as was CL but the neat thing that they both came back to the Lord and did the Lord's work.
Franklin would not been the man he was today if it was not for his father's teaching. The same for Chris. Their fathers trained them and adults even though they did fall into sin, they remembered the teaching and came back.
It reminds you of the story of the progical, which the son ran away from Jesus and then after a while came back, when he was welcomed home.
GMC for Jesus, I agree about what you said about Greg and people compounding his misery. I don't believe someone who call himself a minister of the gospel should be so ever so quick to judge a pastor just because of his children's past even though he tried his best to raise their children unto the Lord.
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RE: Should Pastors Step Down From The Ministry Because ... - 8/8/2008 12:50:02 AM
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lightshineon
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Hi Abiyah  I respect what you are saying, but I also think the mark of a great leader is getting things back in control and fast. The Bible never commands a leader to step down, if children make mistakes, though I could see where they might because, not wanting to bring reproach on Christ and church. I think it would be a case by case issue. I do think people tend to be too critical. All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God, and our judgment should be for restoration, not destruction.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
This whole qestion brings to mind Eli, and his sons. All Eli, had to do was to deal with them, and get the situation under control.
But upon reading that Scripture, it appears that Eli was a partaker in their initial sin -- the initializing one he should have quashed. It appears to me that they took the best-tasting meat, the part of the sacrifice that had the fat. And when they died for offering "strange fire" -- a sacrifice to our G-d that was mixed with pagan ways -- they died. When Eli got the news, he fell over and his neck broke, because his body was too fat to take that kind of action. He would not likely have been that big if he had not eaten the prize meat his sons took from the altar. He, being a priest, knew the difference and he knew better.
What kind of faith in G-d did it take for Hannah to leave her beloved son in the midst of all that, especially when her son slept in the temple. People were not to sleep in the Temple. So were they sleeping in the Temple or a temple, and if it was not the Temple, what were they doing in a temple? And whose temple was it, then?
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Should Pastors Step Down From The Ministry Because ... - 8/8/2008 2:01:05 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Oh, no biggie, Light. I just have a hard time relating Eli with today's pastors, or any Hebrew Temple priest with today's pastors.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Should Pastors Step Down From The Ministry Because ... - 8/8/2008 6:17:40 AM
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DSmitty
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quote:
ORIGINAL: revbob4God
Welcome Smitty. By the way, what are your thoughts on a Pastor who resorts to Public name-calling, and of other specific Specific pastors?
I spent much of my Christian life in a church where the pastor seemed to criticize almost anything that happened in the Christian world that he wasn't personally involved in. Today I am very sensitive about that sort of thing. The Bible says that we see through a glass darkly... none of us see all things clearly. Man looks on the outward, but God looks on the heart.
I want to reiterate, just so there's no misunderstanding, that I am by no means disputing the scripture quoted in 1 Tim. 3 or trying to find "loopholes", so to speak. But I have to be honest with you, I'm not sure about the way that we apply it. For example - and I'm just going to be bold in saying this and if I'm wrong I'm willing to be corrected... God knows my heart: If someone has a teenage daughter that gets pregnant out of wedlock (and I only use that example because it has been mentioned here a number of times) is that evidence that they did something wrong as a parent... that they didn't rule their own house well? It might be... but is it always? I'm not absolutely convinced. I think those things can happen to people who did the best they could. Like I said, if I'm wrong I want the Lord to show me, I really do. But it's just my feeling that individual situations have to be considered on a case-by-case basis.
The word translated "well" (rules his own house well) could also be translated "commendably". I think sometimes what is commendable (or not) is how parents respond when their children do make bad decisions. But when I read that Scripture, what seems to be the most immediate and obvious implication is that the children of the minister of the gospel should be behaved reasonably well and be taught to be obedient. And no one gets it right %100 of the time. Part of ruling well is knowing how to make course corrections when there's a need to do so.
Another thing that came to mind... the word translated "children" is really son - the male child. Now I realize that this is because of the culture and their approach and attitudes toward wives and daughters, etc. But my point is that another thing that you have to realize is that in the Jewish culture of that time that Paul had come from, the son at 13 had become "son of the torah" (barmitzvah) meaning that he was responsible for his own relationship with God. IMHO Paul was mainly addressing the way that parents dealt with the behavior of younger children, not teenagers and certainly not adult children who weren't even living at home anymore.
One other thing... and this is my own conviction. In regard to Eli: I have heard sermons preached about Eli and how he was a bad father and in Bible College we learned all about Eli and how he was a bad father, etc. I don't think that God judged Eli as a bad father, but as a bad High Priest over Israel. The fact that Hophni and Phineas were his sons was somewhat incidental in that respect. The point was that no priest under Eli's rule - whether they were his sons or not - should have been getting away with doing what they were getting away with doing. No doubt the problems there did start in the home, and Eli did fail as a parent. But that wasn't really the main point. That's my take on it, anyway.
OK, so if I'm a heretic you all can take me out back and give me a good, sound Christian beating. Heh heh... just kidding.
< Message edited by DSmitty -- 8/8/2008 7:13:21 AM >
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RE: Should Pastors Step Down From The Ministry Because ... - 8/8/2008 8:04:29 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DSmitty
Another thing that came to mind... the word translated "children" is really son - the male child. Now I realize that this is because of the culture and their approach and attitudes toward wives and daughters, etc. But my point is that another thing that you have to realize is that in the Jewish culture of that time that Paul had come from, the son at 13 had become "son of the torah" (barmitzvah) meaning that he was responsible for his own relationship with God. IMHO Paul was mainly addressing the way that parents dealt with the behavior of younger children, not teenagers and certainly not adult children who weren't even living at home anymore.
The "Greek" Scriptures were written by Hebrews with a Hebrew mindset that included Hebrew culture, doctrine, teaching, and Torah, translating from their own language into a second language. They used the Greek words that related to the subject. When they wrote Greek words commonly seens as "son," their intention was toward both genders in some cases, as it often is in Hebrew, and this was one of them.
Unlike what some teach, bar- or bat-mitzvahing a child does not mean that the parents were no longer responsible for the children's upbringing and for their actions while still in the childhood home! Good night, no! Quite the opposite! The b-mitzvah meant that the child was to go from cursory child-like study into the study of adults! While they often went to school at the synagogues, the study at home intensified! The parents were on a one-track road to turn the one who had been a child into a productive adult who had personal knowledge of the G-d of Israel and who could work like an adult, doing what adults did!
It was not hands off time. It was not, "Well, s/he is no longer my responsibility." It was not time for the parent to step back and say, "Well, I did it!" It was time to intensify teaching.
quote:
ORIGINAL: DSmitty
One other thing... and this is my own conviction. In regard to Eli: I have heard sermons preached about Eli and how he was a bad father and in Bible College we learned all about Eli and how he was a bad father, etc. I don't think that God judged Eli as a bad father, but as a bad High Priest over Israel. The fact that Hophni and Phineas were his sons was somewhat incidental in that respect. The point was that no priest under Eli's rule - whether they were his sons or not - should have been getting away with doing what they were getting away with doing. No doubt the problems there did start in the home, and Eli did fail as a parent. But that wasn't really the main point. That's my take on it, anyway.
OK, so if I'm a heretic you all can take me out back and give me a good, sound Christian beating. Heh heh... just kidding.
No, you are not a hairy tick, but the point of Eli is that he made mistakes, and both he and his sons paid for them.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Should Pastors Step Down From The Ministry Because ... - 8/8/2008 10:08:29 AM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gaylel1
RC, you said in your post that the Elder Graham should have stepped down because he turned his back from the Lord when he was an adult--now, FC was what you called a prodical as was CL but the neat thing that they both came back to the Lord and did the Lord's work.
It seems as though you misunderstood my post.
I said that if Graham's son, as with any minister's children, are at home under the care of the father when the children are not in oreder; the minister should step down. Period.
That is what Scriptures says, and it gives no wiggle room to disobey the qualification requirements.
It does not matter how "Big", "Famous", or "Imoortant" a minister may seem to be or not be; if anyone is not qualifies because their house is not in order then they are not qualified.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Should Pastors Step Down From The Ministry Because ... - 8/8/2008 11:17:02 AM
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revbob4God
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Amen RC
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For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I the Lord; and none else.
Isaiah 45:18
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RE: Should Pastors Step Down From The Ministry Because ... - 8/9/2008 3:33:23 AM
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DSmitty
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Unlike what some teach, bar- or bat-mitzvahing a child does not mean that the parents were no longer responsible for the children's upbringing and for their actions while still in the childhood home! Good night, no! Quite the opposite! The b-mitzvah meant that the child was to go from cursory child-like study into the study of adults! While they often went to school at the synagogues, the study at home intensified! The parents were on a one-track road to turn the one who had been a child into a productive adult who had personal knowledge of the G-d of Israel and who could work like an adult, doing what adults did!
It was not hands off time. It was not, "Well, s/he is no longer my responsibility." It was not time for the parent to step back and say, "Well, I did it!" It was time to intensify teaching.
OK, thanks for the info. I was actually stating something that I had been taught in Bible College. Yet another example that I have to be careful about that. Not that they were way off, but you have to study things out for yourself... and it wouldn't be the first time that I've come to the conclusion that something that I learned there wasn't totally accurate.
I appreciate your input.
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RE: Should Pastors Step Down From The Ministry Because ... - 8/9/2008 11:16:44 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Thank you, Smitty.  I didn't have my bat mitzvah until I was in my fifties, so it was obviously a little different for me, but for such children reared in religious homes, it has been the same in these regards through the centuries.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Should Pastors Step Down From The Ministry Because ... - 8/9/2008 3:52:04 PM
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lightshineon
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. Not trying to play devils advocate, but, it really does not say an elder must step down when children mess up. If that leader gets things in order, and fast that is a aign of a good leader. There is no where that the word states this to my knowledge. Though I do understand someone may need to step down, if they do not get the situation under control. I am not finding loop holes, my husband is an elder, I have three daughters all still under our roof, and as far as I know, and trust me, I know they are good girls.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: gaylel1
RC, you said in your post that the Elder Graham should have stepped down because he turned his back from the Lord when he was an adult--now, FC was what you called a prodical as was CL but the neat thing that they both came back to the Lord and did the Lord's work.
It seems as though you misunderstood my post.
I said that if Graham's son, as with any minister's children, are at home under the care of the father when the children are not in oreder; the minister should step down. Period.
That is what Scriptures says, and it gives no wiggle room to disobey the qualification requirements.
It does not matter how "Big", "Famous", or "Imoortant" a minister may seem to be or not be; if anyone is not qualifies because their house is not in order then they are not qualified.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Should Pastors Step Down From The Ministry Because ... - 8/9/2008 4:30:30 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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I think that what some who have written here are missing, with regard to RC, is that he stepped away from his pastorate (1) because he was following a biblical principle, (2) to give personal parental care to a needy daughter, and (3) to understand what mistakes were made and (4) to rectify them.
Having been through the pregnancy of an unwed daughter, I know that the failure in our case was not just on the side of my daughter. There were several facets of failure, and some of that was my own. When I faced my own issues in this, I was horrified that I had completely missed them and that I had been that selfish.
Obviously, no unmarried daughter becomes pregnant alone, and it is not just because she (let's call it like it is) fornicated with a male. It is because of failure, secondly and maybe first of all, on the parental side.
Had I been a pastor, I would have stepped out of that position because that is what I understand of the Bible and for my daughter's sake, to concentrate on caring for her. Why because of what I understand of the Bible? Because her pregnancy would have been clear evidence that my house was "not in order." It does not take a few minutes of conversation to talk out what brought this on to a daughter or an involved son. It takes much and continual parental care for a long period of time, much self-examination, much truth-telling to one's self, and much repentance.
Then there's the welcoming of that wonderful grandchild . . . .
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Should Pastors Step Down From The Ministry Because ... - 8/9/2008 4:39:59 PM
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lightshineon
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While agree maybe in a pregnancy situation, it would take maybe more time. I still do not think it is not a Biblical mandate. It maybe a person conviction, but, no where does it say to step down, or the length of time a person should step down. Sometimes, we raise our children as Godly as we can, no failure on our part, and they fail, we fail, the pastors wife fail, the pastor fails. Are we repentant? do we take the situation under immediate control? Did the parent not keep boundries on the child? Many different situations come into play.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Should Pastors Step Down From The Ministry Because ... - 8/9/2008 4:52:07 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Light, I am sure you know that my post was not to you. (Stuck this smilie in, because this read poorly, and you know I love you, Light.) I have held my silence through many posts. But what the Scripture says is that their house must be in order. An unwed pregnancy in a house is a house in disorder. For that reason, one should not hold a position one is not qualified for -- their house is in disorder.
One cannot concentrate proplerly on their part in the healing of a disorderly home and help in the healing of a congregation that is also disrupted by what has gone on in the pastor's home.
< Message edited by Covaan_Meshuga -- 8/9/2008 5:14:09 PM >
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Should Pastors Step Down From The Ministry Because ... - 8/9/2008 4:58:42 PM
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rcjames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
While agree maybe in a pregnancy situation, it would take maybe more time. I still do not think it is not a Biblical mandate. It maybe a person conviction, but, no where does it say to step down, or the length of time a person should step down. Sometimes, we raise our children as Godly as we can, no failure on our part, and they fail, we fail, the pastors wife fail, the pastor fails. Are we repentant? do we take the situation under immediate control? Did the parent not keep boundries on the child? Many different situations come into play.
Paul writes to Timothy the following qualifications concerning family for a Bishop:
(1Ti 3:4) One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
(1Ti 3:5) (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
And in the qualifications for Deacon;
(1Ti 3:11) Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
(1Ti 3:12) Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
Paul also addresses this in his letter to Titus;
Bishop;
(1Ti 3:4) One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
Deacon;
1Ti 3:11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
1Ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
I still maintain that if someone in out of line with the above Scriptgure they are not qualified and should not be serving as Bishop/Deacon/Elder/Pastor until the situation is rectified.
Evidently you have a different opinion of which you are certainly entitled; please expand on why you think these Scripturs are saying if not that there are qualifications that must be met..
Thsnks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Should Pastors Step Down From The Ministry Because ... - 8/9/2008 9:18:14 PM
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lightshineon
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Dear Pastor RC, and my friend Abiyah I have a great, great respect for your wisdom, so do not take my disagreement as a sign of disrespect. I understand in the RC situation he felt the need to step down, but, he went back in two years, which as I understand it, was good for him, and his studies so that was what he should have done. I am saying which sins count for a step down situation? Can some unexpected, unfortunate, event happen that does not take years to get it back in control? What if an elders wife gossips, or slanders someone, or their child? I do not see in the scripture where it says step down, I see get your wife, your child under control. When you went back two years later, some would say you still had a sixteen year old, unwed with a baby, and would have still seen that as sin in the camp. I am sure even when the event happened you were a good dad, who knew how to control his home. I think this because you seem like a man who, is the man of the house. Scripture is silent on this issue of stepping down, I think IMHO, that the scriptures RC mentioned mean gain control with God's grace. In some cases that may take time. I do not always see every family problem as a case and point to step down. Each situation is somewhat unique, and if a man feels the conviction to step down, then he should. We are not perfect, we are all works in progress, which, sometimes imperfect people ( children, adults) make poor choices, I still do and certianly did as a child.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Should Pastors Step Down From The Ministry Because ... - 8/9/2008 9:49:46 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Thank you, Light. I don't get shook when someone doesn't agree with me, especially regarding Scripture, because His Word needs no defense. What shakes me is when I am not sure that they understood me -- understood what I was writing/saying -- I may not have been clear. So I try writing what I intended in a different way, in order to cover all areas, in case I wasn't clear. 
Well, now that I see you did understand what I was trying to write; you just disagree. That is easier to take! So now that I see that we are interpreting Scripture differently, I will leave that and go, instead, to the simple matter of my experience with my daughter's pregnancy, what if i had been a pastor, and the stress of handling a broken daughter, a family, and a congregation.
My daughter was so broken. She knew she had let me down, and she always has been the type of person who would do almost anything to avoid that. So I had a daughter who would be seven more months of brokenness, who would temporarily leave school, who was wrestling with both Messiah and her boyfriend, who was shamed and taunted at both school and church, who was dealing with the issues that brought her to this point, and obviously much more.
What I know of myself was that I could not have handled my beautiful, broken daughter, the rest of the family, and the issues we all had at the church then. My daughter needed much attention, reassurance, and time. And when the baby came, that certainly did not diminish.
As a pastor, I would have seen my daughter, the baby, and the rest of the family as priority #1. I would have not have been able to handle the congregation's pain, disappointment, and reactions on top of all that.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Should Pastors Step Down From The Ministry Because ... - 8/9/2008 10:02:48 PM
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lightshineon
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I am sorry for such a hardtime. I am sure the baby was such a blessing to you. I see where you are coming from in your post. It is about putting your daughter first, above everyones needs. I can see that. That is sometimes a hard call to make, but Thank God for a good mother such as yourself. Children are never easy, my three DD all have had sickness, emotional problems, low self worth, not all the same issues, but each DD is a challenge.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
Thank you, Light. I don't get shook when someone doesn't agree with me, especially regarding Scripture, because His Word needs no defense. What shakes me is when I am not sure that they understood me -- understood what I was writing/saying -- I may not have been clear. So I try writing what I intended in a different way, in order to cover all areas, in case I wasn't clear.
Well, now that I see you did understand what I was trying to write; you just disagree. That is easier to take! So now that I see that we are interpreting Scripture differently, I will leave that and go, instead, to the simple matter of my experience with my daughter's pregnancy, what if i had been a pastor, and the stress of handling a broken daughter, a family, and a congregation.
My daughter was so broken. She knew she had let me down, and she always has been the type of person who would do almost anything to avoid that. So I had a daughter who would be seven more months of brokenness, who would temporarily leave school, who was wrestling with both Messiah and her boyfriend, who was shamed and taunted at both school and church, who was dealing with the issues that brought her to this point, and obviously much more.
What I know of myself was that I could not have handled my beautiful, broken daughter, the rest of the family, and the issues we all had at the church then. My daughter needed much attention, reassurance, and time. And when the baby came, that certainly did not diminish.
As a pastor, I would have seen my daughter, the baby, and the rest of the family as priority #1. I would have not have been able to handle the congregation's pain, disappointment, and reactions on top of all that.
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Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Should Pastors Step Down From The Ministry Because ... - 8/9/2008 10:20:50 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3562
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: online
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No, you are a good mother, sometimes it is hard to make choices for our children. My eldest DD, goes with a Christian boy, who no sex worries at all, but breaks up with her, all the time, except when he sees someone else interested. He is not sexual towards her at all, but she almost has an stronghold with loving him. She is a knock out, she is kind, smart. Many boys are interested, but she has eyes for Jacob, who is small of stature, and somewhat effiminate, though I love him as a person also. I hate seeing her crushed every three months. Though she is the lovely one it reminds me of the Leah and Jacob story.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
Thank God for a good mother such as yourself.
. . . Except in my case, if I had been good enough, my daughter would not have either been pregnant or with that boy. As much as I loved the boy (I didn't write liked, I wrote loved! ) I knew he shouldn't be with her. Thank G-d she married someone else -- while the baby (now almost 19) was young!
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Should Pastors Step Down From The Ministry Because ... - 8/10/2008 7:57:01 AM
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DSmitty
Posts: 52
Joined: 7/2/2008
Status: offline
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My oldest daughter got pregnant out of wedlock too. My granddaughter was born three days after my brother died... it was a difficult time.
My daughter wasn't living at home when she got pregnant, but we invited her to come back home when she did. I wasn't serving in a formal ministry position at the time (actually I haven't for some time and I'm not sure where that's all at... but that's a different topic) and I don't really know how I would have viewed all of this differently or the same if I had. Like I said, she wasn't living at home when it happened, but I won't deny that there were seeds of issues that were sown when she did live at home.
She's still with us now, and our granddaughter is two and a half. Our granddaughter is every bit a blessing to us, and we're proud of our daughter for how she has turned things around in her life since that time. It seems like there may be new love in the air and we're much happier about this one than the last one.
To reiterate my conflict on the subject (and I'm sorry if I'm just thick) when I read what Paul said in 1 Tim. 3 the first thing that I think of, the first impression that I get of what he's saying is that it just sounds like he's talking about the general behavior of young children. You know how it is when you're in public and you see a small child controlling their parent. It's embarrassing. I'm willing to concede that my personal impression is no basis for doctrine. I think maybe this is something that I need the Lord to speak to me about. I know it seems pretty cut and dry to others, and believe me when I say that I admire your firm stand to take the biblical approach. But let's face it, there are things that we traditionally have assumed to be biblical because we didn't understand the language or the culture.
Here's an example... and I know I'll probably ruffle some feathers by challenging the traditional view on this: "If a man does not work, neither let him eat." Paul wasn't talking about socio-economic issues or politics. It's not like if someone is unemployed and is having difficulty finding a job that they're not supposed to eat until they find one. But a lot of Christians read it that way. Here was the situation: In the early church, communion didn't just consist of a little piece of bread and a little cup of juice or wine. They basically had meals together. And some people would come to the communion meals just to eat. They didn't help set up and they didn't help clean up they just showed up, ate and went home. And that's what Paul was addressing - it was a very specific issue. And that's actually not something that they taught me in Bible College. In fact if the president of the Bible College heard me say that he would probably roll over in his three-piece-suit.
You guys will have to bear with me because I have undergone a lot of personal changes that have caused me to really reevaluate my belief-system. I still know that Jesus loves me and that He died for my sins - beyond that, in spite of all I've learned, I don't know much. I like where Paul said, "I determined not to know anything among you, except Jesus Christ and him crucified." I think I have a deeper appreciation of that verse now than I ever did before. But on the other hand, Paul also on a number of occasions said, "I would not have you be ignorant..." so I just need to go to God for my re-learning.
So bottom line - I guess if I had to make a decision on the question at hand I would have to toss my personal impressions out the window and err on the side of caution. I think that at least would be God-honoring. I respect that RC and others committed themselves to the biblical approach, even if I or anyone else am/is not convinced that it really is biblical - God looks at our hearts. On the other hand, if someone else is in a situation like that and doesn't feel the need to step down, I don't think I could in good conscience take a dogmatic position against that decision. I think I'd have to let God sort that out.
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Men are God's methods. And while men are looking for better methods, God is looking for better men. -AW Tozer
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RE: Should Pastors Step Down From The Ministry Because ... - 8/10/2008 9:08:11 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5586
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightshineon
I am saying which sins count for a step down situation? Can some unexpected, unfortunate, event happen that does not take years to get it back in control? What if an elders wife gossips, or slanders someone, or their child? I do not see in the scripture where it says step down, I see get your wife, your child under control. .
(Lightshiningon, please understand that I am not arguing with you only stating my positon and trying to answer question as fully and as accurately as I possibly can.)
I presume that when one should step down is up to the person and to whom ever they are accountable to for determination.
A sin; no, a sinning lifestyle, yes. Repeatedly sinning yes.
If an Elder's wife gossisps about someone no. If the Elders's wife is a gossip then yes.
As you so aptly put it; we cannot leave God's grace out of this and get overly legalistic. But also we can not make excuses to keep people in authority when their families are not in order.
Personally I had rather err on the side of stepping down too soon, than to support someone in ministry who is unqualified by God's own words.
Above all else, I believe we should try to be obedient to God's Word. Not to try and excuse it because it might affetct us in a derogatory way, but be obedient because it is God's Word.
Others that I know have not stepped down even when the families came completely apart; divorce, teens going to prison, etc. But as for me I just cannot get past, ignore, nor deny this other verse that Jesus spoke;
(Luk 6:46) And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
As you may know, one of the responsibilities that I have is trying to resolve problems that arise in our Churches. When I go to a Church that is about to come apart at the seams invarible I find leaders whose families are out of order and cannot understand why they are having problems leading the Church.
This is an area that I believe needs to be addressed in many many Churches throughout Christiandom, but sadly seems to be ignored by most.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: Should Pastors Step Down From The Ministry Because ... - 8/10/2008 12:16:43 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3587
Joined: 6/8/2005
From: a mother who let me live
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DSmitty
Here's an example... and I know I'll probably ruffle some feathers by challenging the traditional view on this: "If a man does not work, neither let him eat." Paul wasn't talking about socio-economic issues or politics. It's not like if someone is unemployed and is having difficulty finding a job that they're not supposed to eat until they find one. But a lot of Christians read it that way. Here was the situation: In the early church, communion didn't just consist of a little piece of bread and a little cup of juice or wine. They basically had meals together. And some people would come to the communion meals just to eat. They didn't help set up and they didn't help clean up they just showed up, ate and went home. And that's what Paul was addressing - it was a very specific issue. And that's actually not something that they taught me in Bible College. In fact if the president of the Bible College heard me say that he would probably roll over in his three-piece-suit.
Well, this turkey's feathers aren't ruffled, but I would suggest that you reread the Scripture in context.  Here it is in KJVese:
quote:
ORIGINAL: 2 Thessalonians 3
6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the traditio | | |
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