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RE: Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science - 8/3/2008 10:37:28 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
A case could be made that religious thought served to slow science and prevent it from honestly studying the world. I would say that it is because of materialism and/or naturalism that science has advanced so tremendously in recent times. There is your evidence.
Go ahead and make your case; I believe the notion is nonsense. None of the originators of science were 'materialists'.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science - 8/3/2008 10:43:33 PM
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HHV5
Posts: 152
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
A case could be made that religious thought served to slow science and prevent it from honestly studying the world. I would say that it is because of materialism and/or naturalism that science has advanced so tremendously in recent times. There is your evidence.
Go ahead and make your case; I believe the notion is nonsense. None of the originators of science were 'materialists'.
Who originated science?
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RE: Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science - 8/3/2008 10:46:30 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3118
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quote:
What was that about the sun revolving around the Earth? The origins of which were firmly rooted in Greek philosophy, NOT correct Biblical hermeneutics! Why don't you do a little research, HHV5, instead of regurgitating the party line.
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A case could be made that religious thought served to slow science and prevent it from honestly studying the world. Which is exactly why Christianity is not merely more "religious thought"! Why do you insist on blurring this distinction, drj?
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But do all Christians understand the limits of science in the same way? My impression is that some posit limits that are not there. My impression is that essentially all naturalists completely fail to appreciate the significant difference between observational science and origins science.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science - 8/3/2008 10:57:38 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7212
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Who originated science?
Ask drj11; he is the one claiming it was materialists.
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science - 8/3/2008 11:03:01 PM
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HHV5
Posts: 152
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
What was that about the sun revolving around the Earth? The origins of which were firmly rooted in Greek philosophy, NOT correct Biblical hermeneutics! Why don't you do a little research, HHV5, instead of regurgitating the party line.
quote:
A case could be made that religious thought served to slow science and prevent it from honestly studying the world. Which is exactly why Christianity is not merely more "religious thought"! Why do you insist on blurring this distinction, drj?
quote:
But do all Christians understand the limits of science in the same way? My impression is that some posit limits that are not there. My impression is that essentially all naturalists completely fail to appreciate the significant difference between observational science and origins science.
Joshua 10:12-13
Then spoke Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord gave the Amorites over to the men of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, "Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou Moon in the valley of Aijalon." And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.
Habakkuk 3:11
The sun and moon stood still in their habitation at the light of thine arrows as they sped, at the flash of thy glittering spear.
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RE: Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science - 8/3/2008 11:11:28 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7212
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Joshua 10:12-13
Then spoke Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord gave the Amorites over to the men of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, "Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou Moon in the valley of Aijalon." And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.
Habakkuk 3:11
The sun and moon stood still in their habitation at the light of thine arrows as they sped, at the flash of thy glittering spear
Point?
_____________________________
Jack
“I mean to live my life an obedient man, but obedient to God, subservient to the wisdom of my ancestors; never to the authority of political truths arrived at yesterday at the voting booth”
William F. Buckley Jr. 1925-2008
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RE: Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science - 8/4/2008 12:12:44 AM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
But do all Christians understand the limits of science in the same way? My impression is that some posit limits that are not there. My impression is that essentially all naturalists completely fail to appreciate the significant difference between observational science and origins science.
Probably because it is a meaningless distinction invented by creationists to serve an anti-science agenda.
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RE: Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science - 8/4/2008 6:21:06 PM
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drmark
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A naturalist would of couse consider the distinction "meaningless" in order to validate her/his scientism. Thanks for the confirmation, gluadys!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science - 8/5/2008 9:41:38 AM
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waitingforreturn
Posts: 35
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
What was that about the sun revolving around the Earth? The origins of which were firmly rooted in Greek philosophy, NOT correct Biblical hermeneutics! Why don't you do a little research, HHV5, instead of regurgitating the party line.
quote:
A case could be made that religious thought served to slow science and prevent it from honestly studying the world. Which is exactly why Christianity is not merely more "religious thought"! Why do you insist on blurring this distinction, drj?
quote:
But do all Christians understand the limits of science in the same way? My impression is that some posit limits that are not there. My impression is that essentially all naturalists completely fail to appreciate the significant difference between observational science and origins science.
Joshua 10:12-13
Then spoke Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord gave the Amorites over to the men of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, "Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou Moon in the valley of Aijalon." And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.
Habakkuk 3:11
The sun and moon stood still in their habitation at the light of thine arrows as they sped, at the flash of thy glittering spear.
This is sooo overdone.
From their persepective it did stand still. Dont we still call it a sunset or sunrise? Your wrong if you do. If someone were to write those verses today; it would be written the same way. The sun does move across the sky (from our perspective).
Sorry, but that argument is so old and lame.
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RE: Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science - 8/5/2008 11:36:04 AM
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HHV5
Posts: 152
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quote:
ORIGINAL: waitingforreturn
quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
What was that about the sun revolving around the Earth? The origins of which were firmly rooted in Greek philosophy, NOT correct Biblical hermeneutics! Why don't you do a little research, HHV5, instead of regurgitating the party line.
quote:
A case could be made that religious thought served to slow science and prevent it from honestly studying the world. Which is exactly why Christianity is not merely more "religious thought"! Why do you insist on blurring this distinction, drj?
quote:
But do all Christians understand the limits of science in the same way? My impression is that some posit limits that are not there. My impression is that essentially all naturalists completely fail to appreciate the significant difference between observational science and origins science.
Joshua 10:12-13
Then spoke Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord gave the Amorites over to the men of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, "Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou Moon in the valley of Aijalon." And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.
Habakkuk 3:11
The sun and moon stood still in their habitation at the light of thine arrows as they sped, at the flash of thy glittering spear.
This is sooo overdone.
From their persepective it did stand still. Dont we still call it a sunset or sunrise? Your wrong if you do. If someone were to write those verses today; it would be written the same way. The sun does move across the sky (from our perspective).
Sorry, but that argument is so old and lame.
That wasn't the point.
The point was the Catholic Church used those verses to support Aristotelian geocentrism.
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RE: Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science - 8/5/2008 5:50:01 PM
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Method
Posts: 1162
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
No one has ever observed microbe to man evolution (or abiogenesis outside a lab or even in a lab yet) and claiming that it takes millions of years is speculative and faith based.
No one has witnessed Pluto making a full orbit around the Sun. Does it require faith to believe that Pluto orbits the Sun?
Is belief in the theory of evolution the same as a religious belief? Not even close. Theories in science are not believed in without evidence, so there is no faith. Theories are not dogmatically held in the face of contradictory evidence. Theories are tentative explanations that can and do change as new evidence is found.
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The difference is that Christianity acknowledges that it is not entirely a product of empirical methods while evolution and other naturalistic philosophies try to claim that they are a product of empirical methods.
Empiricism is a naturalistic philosophy, so of course it is the product of empirical methods. Science is methodologically naturalist.
One can certainly use science and still believe that there is something outside of nature. This is the belief of around 30-40% of scientists, a vast majority of whom accept the theory of evolution just as they do other well supported theories.
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When authorities try to incorrectly convince us that UCD is a product of empirical methods and we know that's not true (ie: no one ever observed microbe to man evolution and claiming millions of years requires faith), then it's hard for us to take those authorities seriously.
It is true that the theory of evolution is a product of empirical methods. Read the scientific literature yourself. When the authorities are the scientists themselves, who are producing said research, then it is a valid authority.
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RE: Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science - 8/5/2008 8:39:02 PM
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Carico
Posts: 532
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Method
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bettawrekonize
No one has ever observed microbe to man evolution (or abiogenesis outside a lab or even in a lab yet) and claiming that it takes millions of years is speculative and faith based.
No one has witnessed Pluto making a full orbit around the Sun. Does it require faith to believe that Pluto orbits the Sun?
Is belief in the theory of evolution the same as a religious belief? Not even close. Theories in science are not believed in without evidence, so there is no faith. Theories are not dogmatically held in the face of contradictory evidence. Theories are tentative explanations that can and do change as new evidence is found.
quote:
The difference is that Christianity acknowledges that it is not entirely a product of empirical methods while evolution and other naturalistic philosophies try to claim that they are a product of empirical methods.
Empiricism is a naturalistic philosophy, so of course it is the product of empirical methods. Science is methodologically naturalist.
One can certainly use science and still believe that there is something outside of nature. This is the belief of around 30-40% of scientists, a vast majority of whom accept the theory of evolution just as they do other well supported theories.
quote:
When authorities try to incorrectly convince us that UCD is a product of empirical methods and we know that's not true (ie: no one ever observed microbe to man evolution and claiming millions of years requires faith), then it's hard for us to take those authorities seriously.
It is true that the theory of evolution is a product of empirical methods. Read the scientific literature yourself. When the authorities are the scientists themselves, who are producing said research, then it is a valid authority.
So then you think that scientists are as infallible as gods who can never be wrong. Is that correct?  If not, then why don't you develop some independant thinking and observe reality yourself to see if apes turn into human beings? then do the research and see why no ancient cultures have passed along accounts of our vine-swinging ancestors. 
The "scientists" of today now have to invent new tribes of people that have never appeared in history. "people' like "neanderthals, "Cro-magnon" men, "homo sapiens", etc. They also have to invent a new history of the Jews since they deny the bible. So as always, one lie leads to another and another and another until theywill eventually have to change all of history and live in a fantasy world of half-men, half-apes and new tribes of people. Yes indeed, this is the age of science fiction.
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RE: Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science - 8/5/2008 8:48:59 PM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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quote:
The point was the Catholic Church used those verses to support Aristotelian geocentrism.
The CC used plenty other verses to support plenty of other doctrines that turned out to be complete lies and deceptions. But they aren't the whole of Christianity, so lets move on, and stop generalizing the RCC with all of Christianity. What the RCC does is not what all Christians do. Big difference.
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RE: Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science - 8/5/2008 10:04:40 PM
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HHV5
Posts: 152
Joined: 7/20/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: evry1needsgod
quote:
The point was the Catholic Church used those verses to support Aristotelian geocentrism.
The CC used plenty other verses to support plenty of other doctrines that turned out to be complete lies and deceptions. But they aren't the whole of Christianity, so lets move on, and stop generalizing the RCC with all of Christianity. What the RCC does is not what all Christians do. Big difference.
From a previous post:
"A case could be made that religious thought served to slow science and prevent it from honestly studying the world."
I provided an example with geocentrism and the Catholic Church.
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RE: Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science - 8/6/2008 11:20:32 AM
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Method
Posts: 1162
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
So then you think that scientists are as infallible as gods who can never be wrong. Is that correct?
It's not correct. In fact, I believe the exact opposite. All scientists are fallible, including myself. This is why they must base all of their conclusions on experiments that others can repeat, and they must also describe their experimental methods. This is also why all scientific theories are tentative and never accepted as the last word. Science was formed because of the realization that humans are fallible.
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If not, then why don't you develop some independant thinking and observe reality yourself to see if apes turn into human beings?
Humans are apes. One can also look at the fossils themselves. Most of them are on the internet. A good side by side comparison can be seen here:
picture
You can observe the slow appearance of anatomically modern human features and the disappearance of traits found in chimps. There is the slow increase in brain size, the disappearance of the prognathus of the jaw, the increase in the temporal lobes, etc.
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then do the research and see why no ancient cultures have passed along accounts of our vine-swinging ancestors.
Probably because our vine swinging ancestors did not have language. Not that hard to figure out.
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The "scientists" of today now have to invent new tribes of people that have never appeared in history. "people' like "neanderthals, "Cro-magnon" men, "homo sapiens", etc.
Neanderthals were a real people who left real fossils, and the DNA in those fossils shows that none of their DNA made it into modern human populations. They were effectively a separate species of human.
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They also have to invent a new history of the Jews since they deny the bible.
Given the lack of archeological evidence for the Exodus it appears that the you are spreading the invented history.
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So as always, one lie leads to another and another and another until theywill eventually have to change all of history and live in a fantasy world of half-men, half-apes and new tribes of people. Yes indeed, this is the age of science fiction.
None of the evidence I have presented is a lie.
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RE: Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science - 8/7/2008 8:51:47 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3118
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
None of the evidence I have presented is a lie. Actually, you have interpreted evidence using a worldview which is a lie!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science - 8/7/2008 9:07:04 AM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
Joined: 4/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
None of the evidence I have presented is a lie. Actually, you have interpreted evidence using a worldview which is a lie!
So show how a different worldview provides an adequate interpretation of the evidence. I have never seen any other interpretation of the evidence that actually deals with the evidence. Only interpretations that deny the evidence. Be the first to actually interpret the evidence presented from a different worldview.
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RE: Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science - 8/7/2008 9:13:33 AM
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drmark
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C'mon, gluadys, you're knowledgeable of creation science work in biology, geology, cosmology, hydrology, etc. The creationist interpretations are more than adequate for those who choose to apply Biblical worldview to them. Naturalists deny evidence all the time - be the first to admit that simple fact!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science - 8/7/2008 9:25:07 AM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
Joined: 4/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
C'mon, gluadys, you're knowledgeable of creation science work in biology, geology, cosmology, hydrology, etc. The creationist interpretations are more than adequate for those who choose to apply Biblical worldview to them. Naturalists deny evidence all the time - be the first to admit that simple fact!
The only thing I have seen in creation science is an appeal to miracle to avoid dealing with evidence. That is not interpreting the evidence. For example, I see assertions that there has been a significant change in the speed of light with not the slightest shred of evidence to support the assertion. I see claims that the atmosphere was different before the fall without the slightest shred of evidence to support the assertion. I have seen claims ranging from water vapour canopy to runaway subduction (I know not all of these are adhered to by all creationists) which would all make the earth uninhabitable due to extreme heat. I have seen "explanations" of fossil distribution that make no sense of the fossil record, and explanations of flood formation of the Grand Canyon that are only so much make believe given the nature of the rock formations and the fossils in them.
No, I have not see creation science work in any field that provides more than adequate explanations of the evidence. They fail again and again and again.
As for naturalists (I am not a naturalist btw) I don't know what evidence you claim they deny.
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RE: Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science - 8/7/2008 9:32:12 AM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 5077
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Jesus Land
Status: online
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Attention: Moderator note
I just wanted to take this opportunity to remind the participants in this thread of our Range of Doctrines.
quote:
4. Creation, "young earth," Evolution:
Range of views:
Most Faith Community Network staff, monitors and users believe that God specifically and individually created each species and that Darwinian macro-evolution is a lie. Many believe creation took place over six 24 hour days between 10,000 and 100,000 years ago. However, many O/Es [including C. S. Lewis and most British evangelicals] believe that God may have used evolution as one facet of the creation of the universe, and that the word "day" in Genesis need not preclude creation taking place over billions of years. An increasing number of evangelicals believe that the Big Bang is a more powerful argument for a Christian view of Creation than it is for an atheistic or materialist view.
Unacceptable:
Forceful, sustained argument that science has completely disproved any involvement of God in creation and that evolution, if true, requires that God not exist or that human beings are nothing more than animals.
Please keep that in mind. Remember that sustained false teaching is a Terms of Service violation, which you agreed to when registering.
If you have questions or comments concerning this reminder, please e-mail community@salemwebnetwork.com. Do not send me PMs about this reminder or post about it in forums.
Sincerely,
Lisa Luper
Moderator
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RE: Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science - 8/7/2008 11:15:52 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3118
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quote:
No, I have not see creation science work in any field that provides more than adequate explanations of the evidence. They fail again and again and again. And I would freely make the same assertion. I have not see evolutionary science work in any field that provides more than adequate explanations of the evidence. They fail again and again and again. It always comes back to worldview, gluadys.
quote:
As for naturalists (I am not a naturalist btw) I don't know what evidence you claim they deny Then please clarify what supernatural mechanisms were involved in the origin of earth's biodiversity and how you identify these mechanisms.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science - 8/7/2008 1:14:59 PM
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gluadys
Posts: 1000
Joined: 4/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
No, I have not see creation science work in any field that provides more than adequate explanations of the evidence. They fail again and again and again. And I would freely make the same assertion. I have not see evolutionary science work in any field that provides more than adequate explanations of the evidence. They fail again and again and again. It always comes back to worldview, gluadys.
Well, then, we only go in circles until we look at specific evidence from both worldviews.
quote:
quote:
As for naturalists (I am not a naturalist btw) I don't know what evidence you claim they deny Then please clarify what supernatural mechanisms were involved in the origin of earth's biodiversity and how you identify these mechanisms.
None, that I know of. I believe God, in his wisdom, governs the ordinary operations of nature providentially, not miraculously. Biodiversity is a consequence of such ordinary providence.
Do you claim there is evidence for an extra-ordinary origin of biodiversity which scientists are denying? Something that would have to be accounted for outside the framework of providence by which all of nature is held in being? What evidence would that be?
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RE: Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science - 8/7/2008 3:39:50 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3118
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quote:
Well, then, we only go in circles until we look at specific evidence from both worldviews. Specific evidence does NOT come from worldviews! Specific interpretations of evidence come from worldviews. Frankly, I'm tired of going in circles with your worldview-based interpretations, gluadys.
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None, that I know of. I believe God, in his wisdom, governs the ordinary operations of nature providentially, not miraculously. Biodiversity is a consequence of such ordinary providence. So you refuse to acknowledge that you are truly a naturalist. More going-in-circles, I see!
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What evidence would that be? The only inerrant, authoritative Eyewitness account of origins in existence. But obviously your worldview does not acknowledge that evidence either! So, I really cannot waste any more circle time with you, gluadys. Enjoy your worldview.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science - 8/7/2008 3:51:21 PM
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drj11
Posts: 632
Joined: 3/29/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
A case could be made that religious thought served to slow science and prevent it from honestly studying the world. I would say that it is because of materialism and/or naturalism that science has advanced so tremendously in recent times. There is your evidence.
Go ahead and make your case; I believe the notion is nonsense. None of the originators of science were 'materialists'.
I didn't say they were. I said we can credit the tremendous advancements of modern science in large part to methodical naturalism and to a lesser extent, materialism. Naturalism in particular acted to remove 'barriers to questioning' and understanding that religiously motivated science suffers from. Look at the creationists if you want to see this in action.
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RE: Childhood Origins of Adult Resistance to Science - 8/7/2008 4:26:09 PM
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Method
Posts: 1162
Joined: 9/19/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
None of the evidence I have presented is a lie. Actually, you have interpreted evidence using a worldview which is a lie!
If it is a lie then show me a modern human that has DNA which matches neanderthal DNA. If it is a lie then explain why the hominid fossils in the picture above are not transitional.
And what do you think my worldview is? I think it is evidence first, conclusion second. Is this an invalid worldview, or should we stick with a conclusion and ignore evidence which contradicts that conclusion?
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