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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/3/2008 6:59:47 PM
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buckifn
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In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
Case closed.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/3/2008 7:21:30 PM
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theo_book
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quote:
ORIGINAL: buckifn
In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.
Case closed.
O.K. so you know something about the logos. So?
_____________________________
The most profound thing I learned in scripture is -
That God, who knows me best -
Loves me anyway.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/3/2008 7:55:47 PM
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Kath
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Moderators/Administrators
Is it OK for theo_book to answer my questions in post 93?
I see he has already answered but yes, of course it is ok.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/3/2008 9:30:46 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2109
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Theo,
Thank you for answering the question. I wanted to know if you were a Mormon.
Ha! Ha! Ha! Why didn't you say "Are you a Mormon?"
I told you in other threads I am a Christian.
You may have said that you were a Christian in other threads, but the doctrine indicated by your statement "AND he is my elder brother" is uniquely Mormon.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/3/2008 9:33:31 PM
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earthless
Posts: 5291
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From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
You may have said that you were a Christian in other threads, but the doctrine indicated by your statement "AND he is my elder brother" is uniquely Mormon.
That (and other things he has said here and in other threads) is what made a red flag go up... it is a very unique Mormon declaration. Reminded me that I can't wait for HBO's new season of 'Big Love' to start already..
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/3/2008 9:46:38 PM
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Abishua
Posts: 53
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
Check out Revelation 1:17-18
When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Jesus here DID claim to be the First and the Last!
Yes, you are correct. I added to/edited my post later to include that verse from Isaiah before realizing that doing so would create error in my statement. The verse from Isaiah was not even relevant to justasheep's statement in post #51
< Message edited by Abishua -- 8/3/2008 9:54:39 PM >
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 7:15:08 AM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Theo,
Thank you for answering the question. I wanted to know if you were a Mormon.
Ha! Ha! Ha! Why didn't you say "Are you a Mormon?"
I told you in other threads I am a Christian.
You may have said that you were a Christian in other threads, but the doctrine indicated by your statement "AND he is my elder brother" is uniquely Mormon.
So, are you claiming Paul was a Mormon?
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
_____________________________
The most profound thing I learned in scripture is -
That God, who knows me best -
Loves me anyway.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 7:18:05 AM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
You may have said that you were a Christian in other threads, but the doctrine indicated by your statement "AND he is my elder brother" is uniquely Mormon.
That (and other things he has said here and in other threads) is what made a red flag go up... it is a very unique Mormon declaration.
What you are demonstrating is that if certain scriptures are not prevalent in your church's creeds, they must be prevalent in some Cult's creeds.
Like that of Paul the Apostle?
_____________________________
The most profound thing I learned in scripture is -
That God, who knows me best -
Loves me anyway.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 8:06:15 AM
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earthless
Posts: 5291
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From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
You may have said that you were a Christian in other threads, but the doctrine indicated by your statement "AND he is my elder brother" is uniquely Mormon.
That (and other things he has said here and in other threads) is what made a red flag go up... it is a very unique Mormon declaration.
What you are demonstrating is that if certain scriptures are not prevalent in your church's creeds, they must be prevalent in some Cult's creeds.
Like that of Paul the Apostle?
My creed 'statement of faith' is public and not bound by any church.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 8:28:38 AM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
You may have said that you were a Christian in other threads, but the doctrine indicated by your statement "AND he is my elder brother" is uniquely Mormon.
That (and other things he has said here and in other threads) is what made a red flag go up... it is a very unique Mormon declaration.
What you are demonstrating is that if certain scriptures are not prevalent in your church's creeds, they must be prevalent in some Cult's creeds.
Like that of Paul the Apostle?
My creed 'statement of faith' is public and not bound by any church.
My creed 'statement of faith' is bound by the front cover and the back cover of the KJV of the scriptures. That's about as public as it gets.
_____________________________
The most profound thing I learned in scripture is -
That God, who knows me best -
Loves me anyway.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 8:31:08 AM
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Abishua
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The Jewish culture was (and still is) fiercely monotheistic. The belief in one God can be summed up in the most important/central prayer of the Jewish faith: "Hear, O Israel, The LORD our God is one LORD."
If Jesus had taught/claimed that He was indeed God (alongside with the Father), then you would expect to hear the same proclamation from His disciples as well. For this would have been the most earth shattering revelation to come to light within the Jewish Nation.....as well as the world.
And yet, the disciples, including Paul, were very careful to seperate God the Father from Jesus the Son, as two seperate beings/persons who are not equal. They presented Jesus as the Messiah, the prophet like unto Moses, the promised seed of Eve, Abraham, and David...The spotless Lamb of God.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 8:58:40 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2109
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
The Jewish culture was (and still is) fiercely monotheistic. The belief in one God can be summed up in the most important/central prayer of the Jewish faith: "Hear, O Israel, The LORD our God is one LORD."
If Jesus had taught/claimed that He was indeed God (alongside with the Father), then you would expect to hear the same proclamation from His disciples as well. For this would have been the most earth shattering revelation to come to light within the Jewish Nation.....as well as the world.
And yet, the disciples, including Paul, were very careful to seperate God the Father from Jesus the Son, as two seperate beings/persons who are not equal. They presented Jesus as the Messiah, the prophet like unto Moses, the promised seed of Eve, Abraham, and David...The spotless Lamb of God.
You are right, the Jews had a very hard time understanding the nature of the Trinity despite the many allusions to it in the OT beginning with Ge. 2 "Let us make man in our image and our likeness"
You are right, that the Apostles would have made this clear, and they did. There is the "I AM" statements recorded in the Gospels; there is the song that Paul recorded in Ph. 2:5-11; You have the declarations about Christ made in the opening chapters of Hebrew, etc...
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 9:12:55 AM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
The Jewish culture was (and still is) fiercely monotheistic. The belief in one God can be summed up in the most important/central prayer of the Jewish faith: "Hear, O Israel, The LORD our God is one LORD."
If Jesus had taught/claimed that He was indeed God (alongside with the Father), then you would expect to hear the same proclamation from His disciples as well. For this would have been the most earth shattering revelation to come to light within the Jewish Nation.....as well as the world.
And yet, the disciples, including Paul, were very careful to seperate God the Father from Jesus the Son, as two seperate beings/persons who are not equal. They presented Jesus as the Messiah, the prophet like unto Moses, the promised seed of Eve, Abraham, and David...The spotless Lamb of God.
When the Prophet spoke of Messiah, he spoke of a MAN at God's right hand: "Let thy hand be upon THE MAN of thy right hand, upon the son of man whom thou madest strong for thyself." [Psa 80:17]
When the prophet spoke of God's fellow, he did not identify another who is God, he identified a MAN who is God's fellow: "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against THE MAN THAT IS MY FELLOW, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones." [Zech 13:7]
And when the prophet spoke of Messiah being betrayed, he spoke of betrayal by an EQUAL, a MAN: "For it was not an enemy that reproached me; then I could have borne it: neither was it he that hated me that did magnify himself against me; then I would have hid myself from him:
13 But it was thou, a man mine equal, my guide, and mine acquaintance.
14 We took sweet counsel together, and walked unto the house of God in company." [Psa 55:12-14]
Furthermore, When an "El" named "Jehovah" [Isa 42:5]
"Thus saith "El" "Jehovah" (God the LORD), he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:"
speaks of equality with God, he eliminates his own son as not qualified.
"For who in the heaven can be compared unto Jehovah (the LORD)? who among the sons of the "El" (mighty) can be likened unto Jehovah (the LORD)?" [Psa 89:6]
El Jehovah further speaks of ANYONE as being not qualified to be equal with him: "To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One." [Isa 40:25]
And in case they did not get it the first two times, he repeats it yet again:
"To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?" [Isa 46:5]
He tells us there is no one qualified as "God" beside this "El" named "Jehovah:" "For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. 19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob, Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right. 20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else." [Isa 45:18-22]
_____________________________
The most profound thing I learned in scripture is -
That God, who knows me best -
Loves me anyway.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 9:48:34 AM
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Abishua
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well said theo.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 10:01:27 AM
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Abishua
Posts: 53
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
You are right, the Jews had a very hard time understanding the nature of the Trinity despite the many allusions to it in the OT beginning with Ge. 2 "Let us make man in our image and our likeness"
You have to read the trinity into verses like Genisis 2 "Let us make man in our image and our likeness". Where does Scripture state that there were three in attendance during that proclamation? maybe it was only two, maybe thousands....the heavenly council?
Ever hear: "let's turn on the lights"...but only one person does the actual task of turning them on. Even so...in Genisis after that initial proclamation is made, God stated that He made man in His image....singular.
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
You are right, that the Apostles would have made this clear, and they did. There is the "I AM" statements recorded in the Gospels; there is the song that Paul recorded in Ph. 2:5-11; You have the declarations about Christ made in the opening chapters of Hebrew, etc...
The LXX shows that the actual statement was "I am the Being" (the self existing).
The Masoretic texts reads "I will be whom I will be"
There is no connection between John 8:58 and Exosus 3:14
Paul does not claim that Jesus is God anywhere in Scripture.
< Message edited by Abishua -- 8/4/2008 11:40:07 AM >
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 10:06:52 AM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
well said theo.
(theo) Thank You! Your statement -
quote:
(Abishua) The Jewish culture was (and still is) fiercely monotheistic. The belief in one God can be summed up in the most important/central prayer of the Jewish faith: "Hear, O Israel, The LORD our God is one LORD."
Is repeated by Jesus, "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:[Mark 12:29]
This does not mean the ten commandments are for Christians, but it does mean that Jesus established for Christians, that God is singular in nature and person.
And especially when he says things like "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." [Mat 4:10][Luke 4:8]
And
"Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he." [John 4:22-26]
Jesus has in this exchange, established that those who worship other than what follows, worship "ye know not what." And what follows is that "true worshippers shall worship THE FATHER (Not "me;" NOT "the son;" NOT "WE;" NOT "US") in spirit and in truth: for THE FATHER seeketh such to worship HIM. (NOT "US;" NOT "we;" NOT "the son") 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship HIM (NOT & etc.) in spirit and in truth."
< Message edited by theo_book -- 8/4/2008 5:27:43 PM >
_____________________________
The most profound thing I learned in scripture is -
That God, who knows me best -
Loves me anyway.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 12:04:41 PM
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Natsbeginningquest
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I came across this forum in a google search and really appreciate the debate. My husband and i are learning the origin of the bible and how it came to be. We are listening and reading Bart Ehrmans lectures and books. I have always wondered why the Jewish people believe the way they do and are starting to lean more toward their belief. Anyway, thank you for a wonderful discussion i am going to add this discussion to my studies.
Nat
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 12:15:07 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2109
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
The LXX shows that the actual statement was "I am the Being" (the self existing).
No, the LXX shows that they translated the statement as "I am the Being"; however, they capitalized being because the realized this was a name of God.
quote:
The Masoretic texts reads "I will be whom I will be"
Actually the MT reads "eheyeh asher eheyeh". "eheyeh" is the first person imperfect form of HYH, and in biblical Hebrew the imperfect tense only describes an incomplete action; the actual corispondence to an English tense is determined by the context. A good reference to look at to understand why "I Am" is appropriate in this verse is SR. Drivers book on Hebrew verb tenses. It is considered the definitive work (in English) on Hebrew verbs.
quote:
There is no connection between John 8:58 and Exosus 3:14
Clearly the Jews who heard Jesus thought differently, in Jn. 8:39 they were ready to stone Jesus because of this statement.
quote:
Paul does not claim that Jesus is God anywhere in Scripture.
Did you bother to read the Eph. 2 passage that I referenced earlier?
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 12:29:23 PM
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earthless
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From: where bbq pigeons roast....
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They ignore how the text itself clearly states the Jews saying they are going to stone Jesus because He did indeed claim to be God.
They also ignore Ephesians 2, etc..
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 1:15:45 PM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
(benelchi) You are right, the Jews had a very hard time understanding the nature of the Trinity despite the many allusions to it in the OT beginning with Ge. 2 "Let us make man in our image and our likeness"
(theo) "The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. 23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. 27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: 29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of theearth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him; 31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men." [Prov 8:22-31]
God was speaking with WISDOM, with whom He was specifically involved in creation, when he said "Let US make man in OUR image."
"O LORD, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches." [Psa 104:24]
"To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever." [Psa 106:5]
"He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.
" [Jer 10:12]
"He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.
"[Jer 51:15]
Jesus was NOT wisdom in the beginning, because 1st, he grew in wisdom; and 2nd, God MADE him wisdom TO CHRISTIANS, which means he was not already wisdom, and to the world, he still is not.
If he was wisdom, it would not matter if he was to the world or not. Just as the Father being God has nothing to do with whether the world accepts it.
quote:
(benelchi) You are right, that the Apostles would have made this clear, and they did. There is the "I AM" statements recorded in the Gospels; there is the song that Paul recorded in Ph. 2:5-11; You have the declarations about Christ made in the opening chapters of Hebrew, etc...
(theo) No where in all of Scripture does ANYONE say "I AM" with nothing else either implied or understood from the context.
And if I assume you to be correct in your assignment of meaning to scripture, If saying "I AM" proves one is God, how would you assess one who quotes not one, but TWO ancient texts?
1st ancient text:
"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations." [Exo 3:14-15]
2nd ancient text:
"Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me; and the Lord, WHOM YE SEEK, shall suddenly come to this temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in; behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts." [Mal 3:1]
Peter quoted not one, but TWO ancient texts. Does that not prove him to be God by the stadnard you are suggesting? If not, why not?
"Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, behold, I AM HE WHOM YE SEEK; What is the cause wherefore ye have come?" [Acts 10:21]
So, Peter "quotes" Jehovah's "I AM" and also "He whom ye seek" so does that make Peter God?
What utter nonsense has developed from such little evidence.
_____________________________
The most profound thing I learned in scripture is -
That God, who knows me best -
Loves me anyway.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 1:23:58 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2109
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
"Then Peter went down to the men which were sent unto him from Cornelius; and said, behold, I AM [HE WHOM YE SEEK]; What is the cause wherefore ye have come?" [Acts 10:21]
Only if Peter had left off the rest of the sentence.
And then you have passages like Ho. 1:9 that literally read "I [am] not 'I AM' to you" and translated most often as "I am not your God", even as far back as the LXX. Clearly they recognized the significance of the "I Am" Statements in the OT text.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 3:03:56 PM
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momuddog
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The Bible makes the claim that Jesus is God in John.
John 1:1-2
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
KJV
John 1:14
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
KJV
The Oppotsition understood that He was claiming to be God. When replying to why they wanted to stone Him that stated "You being a man make youself to be God.
John 10:33
33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
NIV
Only by rejecting the clear testimony of scripture can one come to the conclusion that Jesus did not claim to be God.
He is the image of the invisible God and He created all things. Now turn to Gen. 1:1 and read "In the beginning God created."
Col 1:15-18
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
NIV
I could go on with much more but the testimony of the Bible is clear in informing us that Jesus is God. Only by rejecting the clear teaching of the Bible can one come to any other conclusion. If you accept the Bible as the Word of God, you must believe Jesus is God.
Mike "Poet" Carroll
_____________________________
Mike "Poet" Carroll
National Chaplain
Combat Veterans International
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 4:15:16 PM
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theo_book
Posts: 570
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quote:
ORIGINAL: momuddog
The Bible makes the claim that Jesus is God in John.
John 1:1-2
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
KJV
John 1:14
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
KJV
The Opposition understood that He was claiming to be God. When replying to why they wanted to stone Him that stated "You being a man make youself to be God.
John 10:33
33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."
NIV
Only by rejecting the clear testimony of scripture can one come to the conclusion that Jesus did not claim to be God.
He is the image of the invisible God and He created all things. Now turn to Gen. 1:1 and read "In the beginning God created."
Col 1:15-18
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
NIV
I could go on with much more but the testimony of the Bible is clear in informing us that Jesus is God. Only by rejecting the clear teaching of the Bible can one come to any other conclusion. If you accept the Bible as the Word of God, you must believe Jesus is God.
Mike "Poet" Carroll
If only life were that simple. First of all, John 1:1 is not the first verse of the bible. It is close to the LAST. The Christians who read John's writings already knew that Paul fulfilled the logos of God by preaching the gospel to the whole world and exposed to them the mystery that was from the beginning of the world;[Col 1:23-27] i.,e., Jesus living in them.
"If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; 24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: 25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, TO FULFILL THE LOGOS (word) of God; 26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; WHICH IS CHRIST IN YOU, THE HOPE OF GLORY:
And Paul told them about Jesus living in them to the point it is no longer they that live, but "Christ liveth in me." [Gal 2:20]
"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." [Gal 2:20]
Galatians was written about 48 a.d.
Colossions was written about 60 a.d.
So the church was already exposed to the idea of Paul fulfilling the logos by getting the Christians to live the logos in their lives.
Then in 69 a.d. John wrote the Revelation epistle in which he tells the Christians that Jesus was given a name which no man knew except Jesus himself, and that name was "the Logos of God." So the Church had NO idea of Jesus being the logos who became flesh and dwelt among men.
They understood Paul fulfilled the logos by getting Christians to live it so fully, they no longer lived, but Christ lived in them. THAT is how the logos was personified and lived among men. It "became flesh" in the lives of all those good Christians who allowed "Christ" to "live in them."
Than about 96 to 98 a.d., John penned his epistle, in which he gave a recap history, and tells the saints that the logos was in the begining, with God and was God, and was personified in the flesh of the saints.
The "beginning" of which John wrote, was not the beginning of creation, but was the beginning of the gospel. That was the beginning John wrote of all through his writings, UNLESS he designated otherwise with adjectives or other means.
WHATEVER the new testament teaches, IT CANNOT contradict the old testament. EVERYTHING about Jesus being God contradicts the old testament prophecies; as well as the accounts of testimony in the new covenant.
ANYONE who claims the new testament teaches Jesus is God does so in ignorance of the old testament teachings and prophecies.
< Message edited by theo_book -- 8/4/2008 4:22:29 PM >
_____________________________
The most profound thing I learned in scripture is -
That God, who knows me best -
Loves me anyway.
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 4:25:32 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 5686
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theo_book
ANYONE who claims the new testament teaches Jesus is God does so in ignorance of the old testament teachings and prophecies.
Your post misses the mark on so many levels that I don't know where to begin.
Here's just one of many prophecies that show you have completely missed the truth about Jesus' identity in the OT:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
-Isaiah 9:6
Who besides Jesus was the child born, the son given? And that child and son is also declared in the same verse to be MIGHTY GOD, EVERLASTING FATHER. Contradiction or proof that you don't understand what is obviously true?
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RE: DID Jesus claim to be GOD. - 8/4/2008 4:48:40 PM
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EStan
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