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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 10:13:08 AM
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armydude
Posts: 15150
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito
Folks - from what I read, THERE IS NO PASTOR.
There are two elders (one of which is the OP, the other the husband of the MC) who share the pastoring duties.
What advice would you give in this situation if there is no pastor?
Um... Oops... And I bet I looked straight at that too...
Then the elders need to take charge of the situation. First they need to agree on whether the dress code is necessary. If they both deem it unnecessary, they need to discuss this with the music coordinator. Above all there has to be agreement on this. I'd say have a talk with the other elder and the music coordinator as soon as possible. Keep personal situations out of it. One thing I'd suggest from personal experience is to make sure that it's understood that none of you are in adversarial positions. It's not you vs. them. It's not elders vs. music coordinator. It's elders AND MC working together to solve the problem. Hopefully the MC will remember that the elders will have the final say. (I'm thinking they do.)
My apologies for missing that.
_____________________________
Good question, you think?
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 10:28:15 AM
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revbob4God
Posts: 589
Joined: 7/25/2008
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Sorry trish. Truly sorry. I have aspired as far on the laptop to be now able to work in several windows and was working on a Wedding Ceremony and a possible baptism for Saturday and I am trying to be cautious on where I am supposed to respond.
I believe that in this the beginning stage of the church, it is most important that focus remain on what a church should be all about, that being the worship of God, and creation of a sanctuary for it's members. where everyone can glorify God's name.
_____________________________
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I the Lord; and none else.
Isaiah 45:18
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 10:32:21 AM
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revbob4God
Posts: 589
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I had a thought, I do believe that there is nothing wrong with a woman wearing a sleeveless shirt if there is no air conditioning in the church and as long as it is not too tight or revealing. I understand that as the choir may not be developed enough to have more uniform robes, there could be a need for direction in that the interpreters may wear something slightly different from the choir to reflect the different aspects of the ministries but caution has to be exercised in the nurture and admonition of the younger members. In plain truth, plainest I can put it, The CM needs to exercise more nurture.
_____________________________
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I the Lord; and none else.
Isaiah 45:18
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 10:56:23 AM
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buckifn
Posts: 1622
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1. Get a Pastor- does your church have bylaws etc?
2. Elect one indiv. to be the Head Deacon, Elder, etc and have that person call a meeting with other leaders such as the Choir leader and make sure all policies including dress code are in writing and clear to understand.
3.Call the parties together to discuss the problem..pray together about it and make sure there is reconciliation between the choir leader and the girl who was hurt.
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 11:15:02 AM
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revbob4God
Posts: 589
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quote:
1. Get a Pastor- does your church have bylaws etc?
2. Elect one indiv. to be the Head Deacon, Elder, etc and have that person call a meeting with other leaders such as the Choir leader and make sure all policies including dress code are in writing and clear to understand.
3.Call the parties together to discuss the problem..pray together about it and make sure there is reconciliation between the choir leader and the girl who was hurt.
Amen
By the way Sylva has read this thread with me and wanted to add two thumbs up and a strenuous string of amens to item number three.
_____________________________
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I the Lord; and none else.
Isaiah 45:18
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 11:22:32 AM
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revbob4God
Posts: 589
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quote:
The church may be looking for a pastor as we speak. (type) (I'm available! )
Well, Sounds like God called and we have an answer. Blessings to you armydude, God be with you.
_____________________________
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I the Lord; and none else.
Isaiah 45:18
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 11:25:56 AM
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buckifn
Posts: 1622
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quote:
Well, Sounds like God called and we have an answer.
I certainly hope so. That would just be AWESOME.
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 11:30:41 AM
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Imani32006.cd
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The main problem is that we (the church in general) are trying to 'clean up' another man's fish,.. speaking of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. He says to them, "Come as you are," and we, (the church) are rejecting them or we think we are 'perfecting them." Not saying that in this particular case it is the whole church, but, 'church politics' has placed this woman in a place that she is running away the people the Lord is bringing in. Because her husband is in leadership does this make her unapproachable? It shouldn't. this is politics and has no place in church. I am a minister/prophetess and have been saved for 28 years. I have never needed anyone to teach me how to dress, in fact, I set standards and trends WITHOUT opening my mouth. Jesus is able to clean up His own fish, as He did with me. He does it with love and shows us how beautiful we are in Him. Perhaps it is a blessing in disguise when people like this woman run off the sheep, maybe they will end up in a true pasture where the Lord cares for, nurtures, disciplines and teaches His sheep, in, (a forgotten word), LOVE!!~~
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 11:45:52 AM
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mvic
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I was wondering ... the church has no pastor. It has no overall leader either. It has pain and hurt amongst its people.
Has anyone checked whether Jesus is there?
_____________________________
http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
Welcome to my Blog
MEI VITA INDICO CHRISTUS
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 12:02:21 PM
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armydude
Posts: 15150
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From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mvic
I was wondering ... the church has no pastor. It has no overall leader either. It has pain and hurt amongst its people.
Has anyone checked whether Jesus is there?
I'm sorry, but that seems a bit harsh.
_____________________________
Good question, you think?
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 12:08:55 PM
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mvic
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I apologise Armydude. To you and the OP.
But it breaks my heart to see Christians arguing instead of praying together.
If we were to ask Jesus: "Is this dress code important?"
What would He say?
_____________________________
http://www.holyvisions.co.uk
Welcome to my Blog
MEI VITA INDICO CHRISTUS
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 1:09:02 PM
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revbob4God
Posts: 589
Joined: 7/25/2008
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quote:
The church may be looking for a pastor as we speak. (type) (I'm available! )
I am praying now, and Sylvia is also that you are seriously considering God's call. If you have not made contact, it would make an old preacher proud and grateful to know you will.
_____________________________
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I the Lord; and none else.
Isaiah 45:18
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 3:09:51 PM
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mrsrevbob
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quote:
But it breaks my heart to see Christians arguing instead of praying together.
If we were to ask Jesus: "Is this dress code important?"
What would He say?
Brother Gunn, I have read this entire thread. Including the part regarding the CM being perhaps weight challenged. It sounds like she may be humility challenged as well. I believe that it is time that a Pastor be named to either serve in the interim while you find a new pastor, and that the issues with the CM be nipped in the bud. To let that poor young lady leave the situation like this is not acceptable. She could carry the scars of the incident for the rest of her life, and the older woman, the woman in the ministry is an adult or should be an adult. Adult Christian women do not glorify God by glorifying themselves as it appears this CM has. The CM is insulting the intelligence of the elders and the congregation by imposing a dress code. Just because a church is new, that does not mean we do not know how to dress and behave. In my opinion, Discussions need to be had, although first discussions should be among the elders, being as it seems there is no evidence in this there is a Pastor at this time. If the CM is so determined to have dress code issues, I suggest you find a wife or two at the congregation that sew and purchase the material for Robes for the choir. As for the jacket, wrap or sweater, that is the most ludicrous requirement I have ever heard of in a church with no air conditioning, and furthermore, interpreters need to have their hands, shoulders and arms unencumbered to adequately and specifically be able to SIGN.
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 4:02:26 PM
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crh737
Posts: 672
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
I am an elder in our church, which is only a couple of years old. As such, there are a lot of "bugs" to work out and I believe this is one.
The coordinator of our worship (music) ministry (a woman) recently started adding a signing (ASL) to the worship. She had two teen-aged ladies signing along with the worship team. These two young ladies are very exceptional for their age...one happens to be my own daughter! They dress very carefully and conservatively and don't give the impression that most girls their age do. I've never known either of them to dress inappropriately, either in or out of church.
As part of their joining the worship team, she (the coordinator) had them sign a "contract" of sorts. Part of that contract contained a dress code, but is not explicit. It reads that an over-blouse, jacket or sweater is "preferred".
There was a hot Sunday recently that one of the girls (not my daughter) wore a sleeveless top (and we do not have airconditioning yet!). She was completely covered with the exception of just her arms. It was not low cut, not a tank-top, no large armholes...simply sleeveless. I saw nothing inappropriate about it but the coordinator told her the top was out of order and she must have sleeves.
The next Sunday the same girl wore a very nice outfit...skirt down to her ankles, with no slit and a short-sleeved top. Not low cut, either. The coordinator told her this was also inappropriate and that she must wear a jacket or sweater!
It's become obvious that this woman does not like this young girl, even though the rest of the worship team, the church leadership and the congregation think she's just wonderful. I'm wondering if the fact that the only other members of the worship team are men or the fact that this woman has a weight problem has anything to do with the situation. My daughter is only 13 and lovely but still looks like a little boy, while this other girl is 18 and lovely and looks like a young woman.
Now this young lady has quit the worship team and she and her family are very upset. I cannot blame her or them, but don't know what to do. This woman's husband is also an elder, so I cannot objectively discuss the situation with him. And I'm not clear as to whether to allow my daughter continue either. We've had our own problems at home, having to make her wear jackets and sweaters.
Oh, and I have to add this...it was suggested to this woman that she amend the wording in the "contract" to say "required" instead of "preferred". She does not like this idea and rejects it, stating that she's the coordinator and her call.
Do we have a little tyrant in this music coordinator? Is there something I'm missing? Do we just have to suck it up and get used to it?
Help?
I went through a Big problem concerning this. The church at the time had a 2 page doctrine for choir participants.
The problem was the pastor's wife is the one who wrote it. Well I questioned it when the pastor preached from the pulpit that we should use our talents in the church!
Well I asked him, how can he asked people to use their talents in the church when there is a 2 page doctrine for choir.
You can not have side burns, beard, haircut length considered appropriate, dress for males, dress for females. Not just during churdch but anytime you need to be in church.
And of course his created havoc and was told the scripture I referenced was taken out of context, more or less, for their reasoning.
God said Come as you are (He will transform and conform a believer.) and as Paul stated as Jesus stated as well, What's important is the inside of the bowl is clean. Has nothing to do with the outer appearance.
Anyhow I stopped attending this church, but by happenstance stopped by and noticed that the dress code had been changed.
If appearance is that important to the music director, then maybe ordering robes is the next best solution.
CRH
btwe: It was a baptist church that I attended, for those who are questioning
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 4:33:56 PM
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pbaribeault
Posts: 1111
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I think you need to meet with your fellow Elder and express your point of view: that a dress code that goes beyond basic modesty requirements, creates an opportunity for hurt feelings and unnecessary conflict, particularly when the requirements are not clearly stated, and especially if the requirements are actually uncomfortable.
If he agrees in principle, you can go forward. If not, you emphasise that really, this is quite a minor point of Church life to have a difference of opinion on, and seek more clarity. He might think that, beyond modesty there is a level of formality of dress that is desirable up front. If so great! Go with this; it's reasonable.
Probe the details:
Ask if he can see a difference between "desirable" and "required". Ask if he feels that the discomfort of the heat in extra clothing might be an unnecessary burden to lay on enthusiastic volunteers, or does he feel that a volunteer should be dedicated enough to put up with a little discomfort. Ask if he can see that vagueness of "required" or "preferred" can lead to unnecessary personal confrontations.
This will lead you to either a consensus or a clear (and clearly minor) difference of opinion, hopefully without anybody getting personal... just trying to understand one another. If you still disagree, negotiate and try to find a middle of the road solution for the good of the ministry. This may be, in the end, that sleeves are mandatory year round, but sweaters can be left off for the summer; all of it written clearly to avoid conflict. If necessary give up all points except that anything that is going to be required should be communicated calmly, in advance, as a requirement, not a 'preference'. (If that's the case, go buy your daughter a very light weight beige linen blazer, mostly open in front, with only one button. Poor girl.)
Once the Elders have a consensus, do not encourage the other Elder to just talk to his wife. You go, or go together, have a real set-up meeting with her. Tell her your decision, whether it is that you two as leaders feel that a dress code is an unnecessary recipe for conflict, and that she may continue to minister without that tool... Or whether it is that she must change that word from "preferred" to "required"... Or whatever in between. If she becomes confrontational, listen with your whole heart, in case she brings up an angle you hadn't thought of, but if not, simply re-iterate that you have thought the thing through have decided what you have decides. Make it clear that she simply must operate within the boundaries that the Elders deem wise.
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 5:48:58 PM
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mrsrevbob
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i am praying that they get a good strong Pastor. Also, seriously, gather up a collection, buy some patterns and material and have some of the ladies sew the robes unless your congregation can afford robes outright. But I remain firm that the whole issue of jackets and overwraps be dismisssed due to the fact that interpreters need to have shoulder to hand unencumbered for their interpreting, and because the church has no A/C.
Also, the whole dress code is extremely oppressive. As the wife of a Pastor, I would never dream of a two page dress code. You smply must do everything you can to help those who volunteer and encourage them, not run them off!Believe me I welcome help! Who wouldn't!
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 6:07:01 PM
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LoyalFriend
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What does the coordinator's weight have to do with the dress guidelines she has set? Seems to me there is a dress code established and a certain look that is desired. Which according to you consist of blouses, jackets or sweaters for the women. I would think if those are the guidelines and everyone knows about them, then there shouldn't be an issue with the clothing.
Robes might be a good idea too.
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 6:18:44 PM
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mrsrevbob
Posts: 185
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The MC's weight was mentioned by Brother Gunn. I have not mastered cut and paste yet. Let me go back and see if I can try. Bear with me, please.
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 6:21:19 PM
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mrsrevbob
Posts: 185
Joined: 7/31/2008
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quote:
It's become obvious that this woman does not like this young girl, even though the rest of the worship team, the church leadership and the congregation think she's just wonderful. I'm wondering if the fact that the only other members of the worship team are men or the fact that this woman has a weight problem has anything to do with the situation. My daughter is only 13 and lovely but still looks like a little boy, while this other girl is 18 and lovely and looks like a young woman.
Brother Gunn, could you elaborate on the weight problem a little more?
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 6:52:14 PM
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armydude
Posts: 15150
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: NC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsrevbob4god
Also, the whole dress code is extremely oppressive.
Agreed. The dress code could actually work against the church. When potential volunteers see the rules imposed, there won't be many volunteers.
_____________________________
Good question, you think?
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 8:03:15 PM
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ta_mosquito
Posts: 10990
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsrevbob4god
quote:
It's become obvious that this woman does not like this young girl, even though the rest of the worship team, the church leadership and the congregation think she's just wonderful. I'm wondering if the fact that the only other members of the worship team are men or the fact that this woman has a weight problem has anything to do with the situation. My daughter is only 13 and lovely but still looks like a little boy, while this other girl is 18 and lovely and looks like a young woman.
Brother Gunn, could you elaborate on the weight problem a little more?
I was under the impression that the ASL interpreter had the weight issue, not the worship coordinator. I could be wrong, though.
_____________________________
Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open minded and being empty headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: Dress Code Issue - 7/31/2008 9:30:08 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 341
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It is the coordinator that appears to have a weight problem. As such, she wears (even outside church) clothes that are very baggy and loose fitting. It's just a supposition, on my part, that she is effected enough by this to want others to wear the same sort of clothing, rather than clothing that may show features that hers does not show...like arms.
There is much good advice and wisdom here and I appreciate that.
It's a difficult situation, at best. As I said, her husband and I are the only elders and share pastoral duties. He focuses on prayer and teaching and I focus on organizational duties and teaching. We alternate teaching on Sunday mornings. He is not objective in this situation and supports his wife and has allowed her to "call the shots" regarding the worship team. Therefore, I do not feel we, as elders, could have an objective conversation about this matter.
I have considered the idea of a "uniform" of sorts for our worship team. (We do not have a choir...just three musicians, two lead singers and, until recently, the two young ladies that sign.) A uniform might consist of black pants/skirts and white button-up shirts/blouses, for example, and would be for both the men and women involved.
A good start but still doesn't correct any attitude problems.
As for the semantics, the girl's father (the leader of the major ministry in our church, for crying out loud) suggested the word "preferred" be removed and replace with "required". A very common-sense sort of thing to do, I thought. The coordinator said she didn't like the "strong sound of required." 
Yes, as one of the "pastors", I feel partly responsible for this...as if somehow I let this woman, and the situation, get out of control. Hindsight is 20/20, of course, but now we're here and it's a very sticky wicket!
The Lord specializes in sticky wickets, I know...I just hope the consequenses of allowing poor leadership doesn't mean the death of our little church. It very well may and I will bear some of the responsibility. 
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But thanks for the suggestion. 
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