A beast of burden---is that you? (Full Version)

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Liveloved -> A beast of burden---is that you? (7/30/2008 12:27:26 PM)

In Matthew 21, the story of Jesus' triumphal entry into Jerusalem is told. The prophecy is that the King is coming, gentle, mounted on a donkey, even on a colt, the foal of a beast of burden.

Jesus came as He was, our burden bearer mounted on a burden bearer. He bore our sins---all of sin for all mankind.

And we are called to be as He is. So my question, how are you at bearing the sins of others? How are your attitudes? Your thoughts toward others?

Do you strike out at others? Desire to put others down? Is your attitude His attitude?

Galatians 6:1-2 tells us, "Brethren, even if a man is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, each one looking to yourself, lest you too be tempted. Bear one another's burdens, and thus fulfill the law of Christ."

Your thoughts?



ta_mosquito -> RE: A beast of burden---is that you? (7/30/2008 1:41:11 PM)

We are to bear each other's burdens, but I see nowhere that says we're to bear their sins. That's Christ's job alone.



Kat_D -> RE: A beast of burden---is that you? (7/30/2008 1:45:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito

We are to bear each other's burdens, but I see nowhere that says we're to bear their sins. That's Christ's job alone.


What she said!



mvic -> RE: A beast of burden---is that you? (7/30/2008 6:08:59 PM)

Wow ... hold it right there !

My own burdens are too heavy to bear; now you want me to bear other people's burdens too?

Wht can't everyone bear their own burdens? Personal responsibility - that's what I say.

Seriously though ... if someone else is faltering because of their burdens our role is to help if we can. To pray for them. To advise them (if they want us to) as to where they are going wrong. But at the end of the day it is their own sins that is their burden. They should recognise it as such and repent themselves. They should be the ones to turn to God. We can't do it for them.



deliveredarling -> RE: A beast of burden---is that you? (7/30/2008 10:23:56 PM)

quote:

Jesus came as He was, our burden bearer mounted on a burden bearer.


Please notice what you typed here, mounted on a burden bearer. That was a mule, not a human. We can not bear our siblings burdens. Some of us can't even handle our own. This is why we have Jesus. He can handle all of it. What you have proposed here is the reliance upon man rather than the reliance upon God.

I know this is not what you intended.

Burdens:

1) a burden, load

a) of the freight or lading of a ship

2) metaph.

a) of burdensome rites

b) of the obligations Christ lays upon his followers, and styles a "burden" by way of the contrast to the precepts of the Pharisees, the observance of which was most oppressive

c) faults of the conscience which oppress the soul

It's important to add the following verses for context:
Gal 6:3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
Gal 6:4 But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have {reason for} boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another.

Gal 6:5 For each one will bear his own load.
Gal 6:6 The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches {him.}

We can listen and support our siblings in their time of need but bearing one another's burden's does not mean we solve it for them.



SonInMe1 -> RE: A beast of burden---is that you? (7/31/2008 8:00:14 AM)

Helping others is christian. Its a part of loving them.

Enabling others to stay in thier sin by taking their responsibilities...is...a sin.



Liveloved -> RE: A beast of burden---is that you? (7/31/2008 7:21:47 PM)

I guess I don't understand why bearing the sins of others seems foreign or wrong to you. When Jesus went to the cross, He died for the ungodly, while we were yet sinners. If He did that today, I wonder, would He be told He was enabling?

And on the cross He prayed, Father, forgive them for they know not what they do. That is an example of bearing the sins of others. And that is what He calls me to do. The burdens of others are often their sins. And He has told me to bear them. So I do.

I bear them by praying like Jesus prayed, Father, forgive them for they know not what they do. I bear them by loving them and being a part of their life, supporting them, helping them, and giving to them---just as Jesus does for me.

I don't see all of my sin. He shows it to me as I am willing to see it. And He asks me to bear the sins of others, take them to the throne of grace on their behalf, love them and live with them, helping them as I am able.

Is that enabling? Is that atoning? I don't think so. He called is love. And I hear Him commanding me to do this for those He puts in my path. And I do. And I will. And I pray others do the same for me.

And I don't understand why others don't understand.



deliveredarling -> RE: A beast of burden---is that you? (7/31/2008 7:26:55 PM)

My personal opinion here, There is no way we can do or be everything that Jesus was and is. We can certainly try, however, we will never measure up on this earth. For me to pretend that I could ever even come close to doing what Jesus did is extremely arrogant and putting myself on a level equal to Him. I know full well what I am and who I am not. The recognition of that for me, is humbling.



Liveloved -> RE: A beast of burden---is that you? (7/31/2008 7:39:34 PM)

quote:

My personal opinion here, There is no way we can do or be everything that Jesus was and is. We can certainly try, however, we will never measure up on this earth. For me to pretend that I could ever even come close to doing what Jesus did is extremely arrogant and putting myself on a level equal to Him. I know full well what I am and who I am not. The recognition of that for me, is humbling.


Yes, it is humbling. It is humbling that He would love us. It is humbling that He would die for us. It is humbling that He would want a relationship with us. And it is humbling that He would ask us to follow Him. And in that following we are called to bear the burdens of others. It isn't arrogant, DD. It is obedience. It is what you speak of all the time. He wants to live out His life through us. It is what He wants for me. It is what He wants for you. It is the place He has called us to. It's not standing up for me. It's going to bat for others, pleading for them, loving them, seeking God's mercy for them.

Does that make sense to you?



ta_mosquito -> RE: A beast of burden---is that you? (7/31/2008 7:59:54 PM)

We can certainly forgive others. We can love them in spite of their sin. We can help people work through the consequences of their sin.

I do not see this as bearing their sin. "Bearing their sin" to me means taking its guilt and punishment upon myself, which is what Christ only can do. "Bearing their sin" means taking the sin upon myself.

Maybe it's more "forebearing with them in their sin" instead of bearing it?

It's probably more a matter of wording than of different attitudes.



SonInMe1 -> RE: A beast of burden---is that you? (7/31/2008 8:05:30 PM)

quote:

I bear them by praying like Jesus prayed, Father, forgive them for they know not what they do. I bear them by loving them and being a part of their life, supporting them, helping them, and giving to them---just as Jesus does for me.


A lot of "them" in this statement.

What qualified Jesus to take our sins upon Him? Being the perfect sacrifice.

Ain't one of us perfect.

I am not sure I understand what taking other's sin upon us means. It does sound...arrogant. It sounds...socialist. It seems to excuse personal responsibility. Of course I would not say what Jesus did on the cross as any of these things....but to compare ourselves with Him?

It does not seem right.



Liveloved -> RE: A beast of burden---is that you? (7/31/2008 8:31:05 PM)

quote:

It's probably more a matter of wording than of different attitudes.


I would agree. Forebearing means bearing for another.



Liveloved -> RE: A beast of burden---is that you? (7/31/2008 8:37:00 PM)

quote:

A lot of "them" in this statement.

What qualified Jesus to take our sins upon Him? Being the perfect sacrifice.

Ain't one of us perfect.

I am not sure I understand what taking other's sin upon us means. It does sound...arrogant. It sounds...socialist. It seems to excuse personal responsibility. Of course I would not say what Jesus did on the cross as any of these things....but to compare ourselves with Him?

It does not seem right.


It doesn't sound right to our flesh. Them is to take their part, to lay down my life, to count them as better than myself. That is not arrogance, it is sacrificial, it is humility, it is love.

Knowing my sin and going to bat for sinners like myself is excusing personal responsibility? It is doing just what Christ asks me to do. And my flesh screams at this. My flesh says NO. My flesh says their sin is worse. My flesh says I deserve better.

Fixing our eyes on Jesus, we are to walk as He walked, live as He lived, love as He loved and give as He gave. . . even our lives. That is hardly arrogant.



deliveredarling -> RE: A beast of burden---is that you? (7/31/2008 8:40:20 PM)

quote:


Knowing my sin and going to bat for sinners like myself is excusing personal responsibility?


No disrespect intended in this at all.

Who are you going to bat for? Jesus already did it. I hear martyrdom in this LL. That's not what we are to be.



Forever_flying -> RE: A beast of burden---is that you? (7/31/2008 9:07:45 PM)

I like to think of it the way the lord of the rings put it, I can't carry your burden, but I can carry you.

Because we can't take someone elses responsebilties or consequences onto ourselves, but we can encourage them and such.



URForgiven -> RE: A beast of burden---is that you? (7/31/2008 9:25:01 PM)

The burden being spoken of in Galatians 6:1-2 is the burden of sin. Sin is that burden which weighs upon the Christian and drags them down (Hebrews 12:1). Sin is the greatest burden the Christian bears.

And we are all part of one body, if we are in Christ. When one part of the body is burdened by sin, it effects the whole body.

How do we help another brother or sister in Christ recover from being overtaken, caught or ensnared in sin, without dealing with their sin? Why do you suppose Galatians speaks of those who are spiritual being the ones who go to the person? Why does it warn there is a danger of being tempted, if the burden God is speaking about, through Paul, is not sin?

To bear a fellow Christians burden is to bear their burden of sin. We need one another in order to not be crushed under the weight of our sins. We need the truth that can set us free from the bondage of error.

Perhaps the first burden we need to bear for one another is the burden of the sin of not bearing one another’s burdens...?

Peace



Liveloved -> RE: A beast of burden---is that you? (7/31/2008 9:31:02 PM)

quote:

The burden being spoken of in Galatians 6:1-2 is the burden of sin. Sin is that burden which weighs upon the Christian and drags them down (Hebrews 12:1). Sin is the greatest burden the Christian bears.

And we are all part of one body, if we are in Christ. When one part of the body is burdened by sin, it effects the whole body.

How do we help another brother or sister in Christ recover from being overtaken, caught or ensnared in sin, without dealing with their sin? Why do you suppose Galatians speaks of those who are spiritual being the ones who go to the person? Why does it warn there is a danger of being tempted, if the burden God is speaking about, through Paul, is not sin?

To bear a fellow Christians burden is to bear their burden of sin. We need one another in order to not be crushed under the weight of our sins. We need the truth that can set us free from the bondage of error.

Perhaps the first burden we need to bear for one another is the burden of the sin of not bearing one another’s burdens...?


Well said, URForgiven.

And another thought. . . why are we called a priesthood of believers? What did the priest do? He stood between God and man, bearing their sin to God FOR man. And what does our High Priest do? He lives to make intercession for us. And that is what we are to do as well.



slushie -> RE: A beast of burden---is that you? (7/31/2008 9:56:34 PM)

Personally I don't know about the priesthood of believers. I don't know if we're called in ourselves to intercede between God and other people - that sounds Catholic, somehow. I know that we're called to intercede between one another, but being the link between God and another person? I'm not the person who tells another person what to do, or what God's will is for that person.



Liveloved -> RE: A beast of burden---is that you? (8/1/2008 4:50:19 AM)

quote:

Personally I don't know about the priesthood of believers. I don't know if we're called in ourselves to intercede between God and other people - that sounds Catholic, somehow. I know that we're called to intercede between one another, but being the link between God and another person? I'm not the person who tells another person what to do, or what God's will is for that person.


Peter tells us that we are a royal priesthood, being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ (IPeter 2:9,5). We are all priests if we are His.

James tells us, "Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much" (5:18).

Our prayer for others, intercession, is just that---going to God on another's behalf. It is who we are and what we are to be about---priests going about our priestly duties.



deliveredarling -> RE: A beast of burden---is that you? (8/1/2008 7:06:21 AM)

Bearing one another's burdens is different than what I hear being described in this thread. (i may be misinterpreting what's being said)

Matthew Henry describes it this way,"it directs us to sympathize with one another under the various trials and troubles that we may meet with, and to be ready to afford each other the comfort and counsel, the help and assistance, which our circumstances may require.".

He begins by clarifying the difference is continual sin and being overcome by a fault.
"1. He puts a common case: If a man be overtaken in a fault, that is, be brought to sin by the surprise of temptation. It is one thing to overtake a fault by contrivance and deliberation, and a full resolution in sin, and another thing to be overtaken in a fault. The latter is the case here supposed, and herein the apostle shows that great tenderness should be used."

I don't know if that will help anyone else, but it cleared things up for me.[:)]



SonInMe1 -> RE: A beast of burden---is that you? (8/1/2008 8:08:16 AM)

I have absolutely no idea what is being discussed here.

Obviously, we are to help one another. We are family.

Is this the topic?



deliveredarling -> RE: A beast of burden---is that you? (8/1/2008 9:04:22 AM)

It started out as though we are to consider being a beast of burden like the donkey that Jesus rode on. Comparing ourselves to that. Topped with the Galatians passage to bear one another's burdens. Some stuff got tossed around during the exchange of thoughts. I personally may have misunderstood, so I'm attempting to clarify my understanding. I heard taking another's sin upon ourselves as bearing another's burden. I can't do that because I'm not Jesus. So I reread the passages, did a little search and the above post are the conclusions that made sense to me. Don't know if that helps you Son in me or not. I still may be missing the point. ????????????



stampinlady -> RE: A beast of burden---is that you? (8/1/2008 10:41:11 AM)

"Bearing one another burdens" mean to have concern and empathy for them, which can show itself in many ways, ie: siitting with someone and greiving with them, praying with a friend. bringing a bag of groceries over because they are in need. That's how I've understood it.

We don't bear ones sins.



Liveloved -> RE: A beast of burden---is that you? (8/1/2008 12:13:27 PM)

Thanks for hanging in here as we discuss this challenging but important topic, you guys! When I did the OP, I had no idea that this idea would be a challenge to others understanding?!?! I have this 'notion' that others have been brought to the same understanding as me---so you're helping me get over it (and I mean that in sincere love). You are a help to me and I thank you.[:)]

Back to topic:

The thread began when I was reading/meditating/praying Matthew 21 where Jesus is making His triumphal entry into Jerusalem, mounted on a donkey. The donkey is a beast of burden and is a picture of what Jesus was about to do, bear our burden of sin on Calvary. Jesus was our donkey, bearing our burden.

As I meditated on this, I was reminded of Galatians 6:2 and the command for us to bear one another's burdens and the context is very clearly the sin of others. (Read post #16 by URForgiven for an excellent explanation of this.)

So I asked in the OP, how are we doing at this? attitudes? thoughts? do you strike back when struck at? etc?

Our bearing the sin burden of others is not saying we are in any way replacing what Christ has done for us on Calvary. Christ's sacrifice for sin is all sufficient. Yet sin remains. Sin remains in those we know and love, in our brothers and sisters in the body, in our spouse, in our children. And it is a burdensome thing.

Probably the biggest sin we all deal with is unbelief. So I will use that as my example. How many times are others in situations where their faith is faltering, they are struggling to believe, and they don't see God's goodness? They are not believing. They are burdened by the sin of unbelief. They are weighed down and weary. And they need help.

So what do I do? I encourage them. I pray for them. I remind them of God's love and care for them and I am His love and care by taking them flowers, writing a note of encouragement, calling or sending an email. I ask them, "How are you. . . and I want to hear what's going on in their inside world." And I lift them up to the throne of grace, seeking for God to meet them and revive them.

They are in sin and need my help. Their burden IS MY burden. We are one in the Lord. So I cry out to God on their behalf, bearing their sin to Him. That's what bearing the burden of sin for another looks like.

Does that help? Am I being understood?



slushie -> RE: A beast of burden---is that you? (8/1/2008 12:20:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Liveloved

quote:

Personally I don't know about the priesthood of believers. I don't know if we're called in ourselves to intercede between God and other people - that sounds Catholic, somehow. I know that we're called to intercede between one another, but being the link between God and another person? I'm not the person who tells another person what to do, or what God's will is for that person.


Peter tells us that we are a royal priesthood, being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ (IPeter 2:9,5). We are all priests if we are His.

James tells us, "Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much" (5:18).

Our prayer for others, intercession, is just that---going to God on another's behalf. It is who we are and what we are to be about---priests going about our priestly duties.


Oh, so do you mean that that means that we pray for others? And not pray for others in the sense that we do the praying in place of them.



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