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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/9/2008 2:46:56 PM
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abraxas
Posts: 302
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Evolutionists, are denying the evidence of God.
They know the truth of God, but they refuse to acknowledge the fact.
This is what I'm talkiing about.
At what level do they know, and at what level do they refuse to acknowledge? I mean, surely there couldn't be a dialogue, like "Yes, God is real, but NO, I refuse to acknowledge that. God is not real."
quote:
There is actually no such thing as an Atheist. In reality everybody believes....
Earlier you wrote,
quote:
People can deny reality and believe a lie.
Can someone believe in God and believe God is not real at the same time?
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Think about it.
If they are involuntary, then where does the responsibility come in to play?
It doesn't.
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Know on is responcible for that which they can not control.
Agreed.
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Well, it is only natural for a child to be as the perents, untill they start to think for them selves.
Then it becomes as pear presure &/or fear of converting.
Some of it is because of propaganda and hiding the truth from the masses, fear mongering, ect...
As for they Christian, as you grow up into and with the irrifutable truth, how could you sway from it.
You just gave two different explanations for the same phenonenon.
quote:
If we carefuly preseant both sides of the matter, and waigh them out. The truth will come out on top.
If an oppinion is not the truth, it will be found as untrue by the truth.
Truth stands on its self.
It requires passing judgements on the integrity of a whole lot of people for anyone to believe this. Thanks for the chat diolectic.
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/10/2008 3:27:53 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxasquote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Evolutionists, are denying the evidence of God.
They know the truth of God, but they refuse to acknowledge the fact.
This is what I'm talkiing about. At what level do they know, and at what level do they refuse to acknowledge? I mean, surely there couldn't be a dialogue, like "Yes, God is real, but NO, I refuse to acknowledge that. God is not real." I think we are getting into "psycology" here.
What I'm talking about is "hold the truth in unrighteousness;" Rom 1:18
Rom 1:21 Because, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
The way I see it, they once knew the truth, but hated it and supressed that truth by heardening their hearts to it and ignoring it. This darkens their heart as odscuring the truth with "arguments"(2Corinth 10:5) wich make strongholds(2Corinth 10:4) as to hold up the lies.
This is how they start to believe their own lies to be truth.
Example:
Say you hate the fact of some thing.
You find information that is contrary to the fact you hate. You will get as much contrary information as to make your argument against the fact strong enough to SEEM to trump the fact you hate.
All this contrary information persuades you to believe this lie.
Hope that makes sence.
quote:
quote:
There is actually no such thing as an Atheist. In reality everybody believes.... Earlier you wrote,quote:
People can deny reality and believe a lie. Can someone believe in God and believe God is not real at the same time? Okay. I meant there is no such thing as an Atheist starting out in life. They become atheists after awhile hardening there hearts to the truth.
quote:
quote:
Well, it is only natural for a child to be as the perents, untill they start to think for them selves.
Then it becomes as pear presure &/or fear of converting.
Some of it is because of propaganda and hiding the truth from the masses, fear mongering, ect...
As for they Christian, as you grow up into and with the irrifutable truth, how could you sway from it. You just gave two different explanations for the same phenonenon. quote:
Why is it that people generally remain within or close to the belief system they were raised in? Maybe apathy, they don't think it realy matters becaus all roads lead to heaven.
Or
in the atheist case, they beieve that when we die, we beome nonexistant. therefore, it don't matter anyway.
I guess Know one may realy know why people generally remain within or close to the belief system they were raised in. I should have told you that was the first time I thought about it. I told you what I thought as it came to me.
Sorry.
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quote:
quote:
How do I know it's the truth of the matter you're persuading me of, and not an erroneous opinion of the truth of the matter? If we carefuly preseant both sides of the matter, and waigh them out. The truth will come out on top.
If an oppinion is not the truth, it will be found as untrue by the truth.
Truth stands on its self. It requires passing judgements on the integrity of a whole lot of people for anyone to believe this. Thanks for the chat diolectic. People do that every day.
One may prove his integruty for a correct judgment.
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/16/2008 3:19:53 PM
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terryjohn
Posts: 470
Joined: 3/23/2007
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Many are annoyed initially that they do not have another choice. They hate God because they have to bow down to Him but they want to share in all he has to give like life, peace, joy. Hell is God's. It is not someplace satan has created. It is a place God has created by default in that it is a place He has withdrawn His grace from thus making it the place it is. Men want nothing to with God and want to be given the grace to become their own gods. Now it may appear nice if God would grant them this but it simply would not be true and not kind to indulge men in their fanticies.
Men will be tormented in hell by their shame and unfilfilled evil passions and desires. There confession will be, I deserve this and Jesus is Lord.
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/17/2008 4:47:38 PM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 560
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
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People hate God because they love sin.
God sends people to hell because not only does he hate anything that is not pure but it s the just thing to do.
_____________________________
Christ saved you from the wrath of an almighty God. Hell is just a revelation of that. I always tell people this. God saved you from Himself, God saved you for Himself and God saved you by Himself."
Paul Washer
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/17/2008 7:26:42 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
People hate God because they love sin. No, some are ony indiferent, apathetic, disinterested, impartial, incurious, lukewarm, neutral, tolerable, uncaring, unconcerned, unfeeling, uninterested, unmindful, unmoved...ect...
Some have no reason to hate Him.
They are ignorant of God.
If one hates God, they may only hate a misconception of HIM.
Some don't even know about God, how could they hate Him?
Me, I didn't care less about God before I was saved. I was ignorant.
I thought, who cares if I go to heaven or hell.
I thought if I was in hell, I be with my friends who didn't belive in God, if I went to heaven, I be with those who did belive.
Hell was like the same place as heaven, but a diferent crowed.
It is imposible to truly hate that which you do not know.
How could some one hate Him if they don't know Him?
If, for instance, some one seems to hate Him, they might hate Him only because they hate a misconception of Him as most do.
In that case, they do not realy hate God, but a false image about Him.
When the light comes which reviels the true God, then you will find out if they realy hate Him or not.
One who truly hates God, knows the true facts about Him, they hate the light.
Truly love God by truly knowing Him(which is in fact, eternal life John 17:3), then you will naturaly hate sin; Continue to love yourself and the world after finding out the truth and by that you will know the real God, and then you will be hating Him.
My dad doesn't even hate God, infact He likes HIM, but my dad is not saved, he's a Catholic.
Paul the Apostle, who was Saul especialy didn't hate God before he was saved.
Paul delighted in the law of God after the inward man(Rom 7:22)
He had a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge(Rom 10:2).
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. (Php 3:6 )
He persecuted the church because He thought they were discracing God by saying that His Messiah was crucified.
That was an abomination to Paul bedause Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Paul as an unsaved man definatly did not hate God.
Alot of the unsaved eather love God or hate God as they know Him in ignorance.
So do not say that what you did as a mtter of fact.
Do not say that All unsaved hate God, that is not true.
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/17/2008 7:49:06 PM
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Lufia
Posts: 187
Joined: 5/25/2008
From: Canada, quebec province
Status: offline
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Catholics are unsaved??? Why's that?
_____________________________
Give your life to Jesus and enjoy the ride!
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/17/2008 8:08:03 PM
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rcjones
Posts: 193
Joined: 5/19/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
How could some one hate Him if they don't know Him?
Rom 1:18 ff says all men know him sufficiently to make God angry by not acknowledging Him as God and by not giving Him thanks.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
If Christ is the light, and those who do evil hate the light, then they hate Christ.
quote:
No, some are ony indiferent, apathetic, disinterested, impartial, incurious, lukewarm, neutral, tolerable, uncaring, unconcerned, unfeeling, uninterested, unmindful, unmoved...ect...
Some have no reason to hate Him.
They are ignorant of God.
If one hates God, they may only hate a misconception of HIM.
As comforting as these "carnal" excuses may be to the sinner, they ignore that "...the carnal mind is enmity against God."
Enmity - "a feeling or condition of hostility; hatred; ill will; animosity; antagonism."
_____________________________
Riddle me this:
Job 8.9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow)
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/17/2008 9:02:44 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lufia
Catholics are unsaved??? Why's that? Only them who have no relationship with God through Christ.
If you are talking about my statementquote:
My dad doesn't even hate God, infact He likes HIM, but my dad is not saved, he's a Catholic. I meant that my dad think loves God as he knows about Him, but is ignorant of his own standing with HIM. My dad's religious makes him to think that he is all fine & dandy with God, but He has no relationship with God through Christ.
My dad's religon has made him to think that if he does this & that, he is making his way to heaven.
However, it is evident that he is not saved.
Furthermore, my dad's doctrine is not right, he has a nother gosple that is not the same as Paul & the rest of the Apostles preached.
Hower, this is for another thread.
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/17/2008 10:35:29 PM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 560
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
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DIOletic
quote:
No, some are ony indiferent, apathetic, disinterested, impartial, incurious, lukewarm, neutral, tolerable, uncaring, unconcerned, unfeeling, uninterested, unmindful, unmoved...ect...
 ,that is ridiculous.How can you possibly remain biblical and believe what you just wrote?I would have loved to read that if i was not saved because it would tickle my hears,but as a boy saved by the Lord i find that awfully sad that a professing Christian can deny the word of God when it says:
24 "No slave can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will pay heed to the one and despise the other. You cannot be the slaves both of God and of gold."
Matt 6:24 (MontgomeryNT)
The word Gold/material things were used by the Lord instead of the word sin because prior to that verse Christ was speaking about things concerning materialism.But anyone with basic understanding of biblical studies can understand that we could easily and should use the passage as an example for all types of sinful desires.
Christ was addressing material matters but if we were addressing sexual lust or any other type of sin he could have easily said "You cannot be the slaves both of God and of gold/sexual lust/lieing/stealing/ or to sum it all up SIN.
So dio,Christ word says that either we love sin and hate God or vice versa
yet you say that is not true..should we as Christians believe you or believe God's word?
quote:
Some have no reason to hate Him.
They are ignorant of God.
If one hates God, they may only hate a misconception of HIM.
That's a lie,all unregenerated sinners have reason to hate him because he is the exact opposite of what they love.It is only the misconception of God that enables unregenerated sinners to think that they love him,it is the proper understanding of God that leads men to hate God.
None desired to kill Jesus Christ when he had not yet started his ministry but when he proclaimed that he was the Lord he became man's enemy.
It is imposible to truly hate that which you do not know.
If you truly believe that some do not know God then how do you reconcile the fact that you believe in "free-will" when if some do not know about God then how can the make a choice to reject someone they do not know?
quote:
My dad doesn't even hate God, infact He likes HIM, but my dad is not saved, he's a Catholic.
I am not related to sugar so I do not intend to be sweet but i do desire to share the truth with love and grace.With that said,if your dad is a true catholic he does not like God but he hates him because he is not saved.it is highly unbiblical for one to assume that one can "like' God.Makes me sick to my stomach.
_____________________________
Christ saved you from the wrath of an almighty God. Hell is just a revelation of that. I always tell people this. God saved you from Himself, God saved you for Himself and God saved you by Himself."
Paul Washer
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/18/2008 12:23:57 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjonesquote:
How could some one hate Him if they don't know Him? Rom 1:18 ff says all men know him sufficiently to make God angry by not acknowledging Him as God and by not giving Him thanks.
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
If Christ is the light, and those who do evil hate the light, then they hate Christ. Some have not been given the ligh yet.
That is why Paul, in Ephesians, tell us to be light & to expose it.
It is then they have a chance to show if they hate the light or love it.
Thgey are in darknes. Darkness means "obscurity", they can not see the light to hate it yet.
quote:
No, some are ony indiferent, apathetic, disinterested, impartial, incurious, lukewarm, neutral, tolerable, uncaring, unconcerned, unfeeling, uninterested, unmindful, unmoved...ect...
Some have no reason to hate Him.
They are ignorant of God.
If one hates God, they may only hate a misconception of HIM.
As comforting as these "carnal" excuses may be to the sinner, they ignore that "...the carnal mind is enmity against God."
Enmity - "a feeling or condition of hostility; hatred; ill will; animosity; antagonism." I know what "Enmity means.
However,it is the mindset of the flesh which is hostil toward God, not the person himself.
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/18/2008 4:49:04 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammyquote:
but as a boy saved by the Lord i find that awfully sad that a professing Christian can deny the word of God when it says:
24 "No slave can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will pay heed to the one and despise the other. You cannot be the slaves both of God and of gold."
Matt 6:24 (MontgomeryNT) How am I denying this scripture?
The thing with this verse, God is not the master of the people which I'm talking about.
God is not the master to be hated.
This is in context to those who do have God as their master, telling them not to not let that which was given to them to be valued over God.
verse 21: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
quote:
The word Gold/material things were used by the Lord instead of the word sin because prior to that verse Christ was speaking about things concerning materialism.
But anyone with basic understanding of biblical studies can understand that we could easily and should use the passage as an example for all types of sinful desires. Actually, Mammon is not sinful, nor is it sin.
Mammon is that which is given to you.
God is telling us to not let it rule us.
I am given a great paying job(mammon). I am not to make my job over my servant hood/devotion to God.
quote:
Christ was addressing material matters but if we were addressing sexual lust or any other type of sin he could have easily said "You cannot be the slaves both of God and of gold/sexual lust/lieing/stealing/ or to sum it all up SIN.
So dio, Christ word says that either we love sin and hate God or vice versa
yet you say that is not true.
should we as Christians believe you or believe God's word? Why not take on a theology that makes sense & one that actually stays within the bounds of reality.
This way, you will have more credit, not only with other Christians, but also as a witness.
The world would think the God you describe to be credible.
I would say that people to interpret the Scriptures correctly, not to mold it to ones theology.
quote:
quote:
Some have no reason to hate Him.
They are ignorant of God.
If one hates God, they may only hate a misconception of HIM. That's a lie, all unregenerate sinners have reason to hate him because he is the exact opposite of what they love. Tell the people who don't even know about the God of Israel that they hate Him & they will tell you that they don't know what your talking about.
All they know of is the God they worship.
The God of Israel has done nothing to them for their hatred.
quote:
It is only the misconception of God that enables unregenerate sinners to think that they love him, it is the proper understanding of God that leads men to hate God.
None desired to kill Jesus Christ when he had not yet started his ministry but when he proclaimed that he was the Lord he became man's enemy. Notice, that it was only when Jesus was telling them who He was, then they started to hate Him.
They had to first, know Jesus before they hated Him, same with the Father.
quote:
It is imposible to truly hate that which you do not know.
If you truly believe that some do not know God then how do you reconcile the fact that you believe in "free-will" when if some do not know about God then how can the make a choice to reject someone they do not know? If your talking about those who die without hearing about Christ, not knowing God; God will then judge them according to what they do know(Romans 1:17-18 & Romans 2:14-15)
It's not the hatred of God that condemns them, but the disobedience/rebellion to which they know is right in their own conscience & heart.
quote:
quote:
My dad doesn't even hate God, infact He likes HIM, but my dad is not saved, he's a Catholic. I am not related to sugar so I do not intend to be sweet but i do desire to share the truth with love and grace. With that said, if your dad is a true catholic he does not like God but he hates him because he is not saved. it is highly unbiblical for one to assume that one can "like' God. Makes me sick to my stomach. Give me a brake, "sick to your stomach."
I think your being wrather O.A./melodramatic.
Enough with the theatrics.
When Paul preached in Mars Hill, he didn't claim that they hated God, but were ignorant of Him.
If they truly hated God as you claim, they surely wouldn't have an altar with this inscription, "TO THE UNKNOWN GOD" of whom therefore they ignorantly worship.(Act 17:23)
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/18/2008 7:42:11 PM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 560
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammyquote:
but as a boy saved by the Lord i find that awfully sad that a professing Christian can deny the word of God when it says:
24 "No slave can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will pay heed to the one and despise the other. You cannot be the slaves both of God and of gold."
Matt 6:24 (MontgomeryNT) How am I denying this scripture?
The thing with this verse, God is not the master of the people which I'm talking about.
God is not the master to be hated.
This is in context to those who do have God as their master, telling them not to not let that which was given to them to be valued over God.
verse 21: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
quote:
The word Gold/material things were used by the Lord instead of the word sin because prior to that verse Christ was speaking about things concerning materialism.
But anyone with basic understanding of biblical studies can understand that we could easily and should use the passage as an example for all types of sinful desires. Actually, Mammon is not sinful, nor is it sin.
Mammon is that which is given to you.
God is telling us to not let it rule us.
I am given a great paying job(mammon). I am not to make my job over my servant hood/devotion to God.
quote:
Christ was addressing material matters but if we were addressing sexual lust or any other type of sin he could have easily said "You cannot be the slaves both of God and of gold/sexual lust/lieing/stealing/ or to sum it all up SIN.
So dio, Christ word says that either we love sin and hate God or vice versa
yet you say that is not true.
should we as Christians believe you or believe God's word? Why not take on a theology that makes sense & one that actually stays within the bounds of reality.
This way, you will have more credit, not only with other Christians, but also as a witness.
The world would think the God you describe to be credible.
I would say that people to interpret the Scriptures correctly, not to mold it to ones theology.
quote:
quote:
Some have no reason to hate Him.
They are ignorant of God.
If one hates God, they may only hate a misconception of HIM. That's a lie, all unregenerate sinners have reason to hate him because he is the exact opposite of what they love. Tell the people who don't even know about the God of Israel that they hate Him & they will tell you that they don't know what your talking about.
All they know of is the God they worship.
The God of Israel has done nothing to them for their hatred.
quote:
It is only the misconception of God that enables unregenerate sinners to think that they love him, it is the proper understanding of God that leads men to hate God.
None desired to kill Jesus Christ when he had not yet started his ministry but when he proclaimed that he was the Lord he became man's enemy. Notice, that it was only when Jesus was telling them who He was, then they started to hate Him.
They had to first, know Jesus before they hated Him, same with the Father.
quote:
It is imposible to truly hate that which you do not know.
If you truly believe that some do not know God then how do you reconcile the fact that you believe in "free-will" when if some do not know about God then how can the make a choice to reject someone they do not know? If your talking about those who die without hearing about Christ, not knowing God; God will then judge them according to what they do know(Romans 1:17-18 & Romans 2:14-15)
It's not the hatred of God that condemns them, but the disobedience/rebellion to which they know is right in their own conscience & heart.
quote:
quote:
My dad doesn't even hate God, infact He likes HIM, but my dad is not saved, he's a Catholic. I am not related to sugar so I do not intend to be sweet but i do desire to share the truth with love and grace. With that said, if your dad is a true catholic he does not like God but he hates him because he is not saved. it is highly unbiblical for one to assume that one can "like' God. Makes me sick to my stomach. Give me a brake, "sick to your stomach."
I think your being wrather O.A./melodramatic.
Enough with the theatrics.
When Paul preached in Mars Hill, he didn't claim that they hated God, but were ignorant of Him.
If they truly hated God as you claim, they surely wouldn't have an altar with this inscription, "TO THE UNKNOWN GOD" of whom therefore they ignorantly worship.(Act 17:23)
I will ask you a simple question,do non-believers love sin?
And how do you interpret this verse?:
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He who trusts in him is not condemned, but he who does not trust has already been condemned, because he has not put his trust in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one who practices wrong hates light, and does not come to the light, lest his actions be exposed;
21 but he who does what is true, comes to the light, in order that his actions may be shown to have been wrought in God."
John 3:17-21 (MontgomeryNT)
That verse is clearly saying that non-believers hate God but ofcourse I await for response.
_____________________________
Christ saved you from the wrath of an almighty God. Hell is just a revelation of that. I always tell people this. God saved you from Himself, God saved you for Himself and God saved you by Himself."
Paul Washer
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/19/2008 5:06:31 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sammy_S
I will ask you a simple question, do non-believers love sin? Not allways.
Alcoholics, for one example, come to hate their sin, but they repent by turning to themselves to quit.
quote:
And how do you interpret this verse?:
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved. All nankind might be saved; however, it is one's self who condemns, or you condemn your self.
They condemn themselves by not submitting to the truth(light) while able to.
quote:
18 He who trusts in him is not condemned, but he who does not trust has already been condemned, because he has not put his trust in the name of the only begotten Son of God. All mankind, who are able to trust in Him & those who refuse are condemned because they refuse to.
quote:
19 And this is the condemnation, that Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. When someone finds the truth by a witness of Christ or by any other way, they would rather stay ignorant(purposfuly ignoring the truth) so tht they will not be found guilty by other men, ignoring also the fact of God being their judge.
They are to proude to humble themselves.
quote:
20 For every one who practices wrong hates light, and does not come to the light, lest his actions be exposed; All who continues in sin after knowing the truth, hates the truth & will not submit to it, for fear of being exposed as guilty to other men.
They are proude respectors of men.
This is why they even approve of others who do such things as they do.(Romans 1:32).
quote:
21 but he who does what is true, comes to the light, in order that his actions may be shown to have been wrought in God."
John 3:17-21 (MontgomeryNT) They that agree to the truth and do it are actualy doing it that he may have evidence that their actions are performed according to the will of God.
IOW, they that submitt to the truth, do it so that they may be saved.
quote:
That verse is clearly saying that non-believers hate God but of course I await for response. Actually, these verses only say that the ones who reject the truth(light) hate the light.
< Message edited by Diolectic -- 8/19/2008 5:20:35 PM >
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/24/2008 4:38:51 AM
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Sammy_S
Posts: 560
Joined: 10/6/2007
From: Brampton,Ontario
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DIO
quote:
Actually, these verses only say that the ones who reject the truth(light) hate the light.
So now,you are saying that there are some unbelievers who are not rejecting the truth/light/Christ?
How can you possibly make yourself believe that?
_____________________________
Christ saved you from the wrath of an almighty God. Hell is just a revelation of that. I always tell people this. God saved you from Himself, God saved you for Himself and God saved you by Himself."
Paul Washer
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/24/2008 9:52:44 AM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
One quick continuation.
We all know that certain places of the world are predominantly Catholic, or Protestant, or Muslim. If belief is a matter of choice, and only a fool would choose to deny the gospel of Christ, how do we explain these statistics? Why are the people in, say, the SE United States more likely to "choose" to believe in Jesus and the Bible, while people in Indonesia are more likely to "choose" to believe in Allah and the Koran?
Why is the concentration of fools so disparate?
Because only God does the choosing and he did it before the creation of the world as Ephesians 1:4 says. Jesus also says that the chosen will be few.
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/24/2008 10:05:33 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 302
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
One quick continuation.
We all know that certain places of the world are predominantly Catholic, or Protestant, or Muslim. If belief is a matter of choice, and only a fool would choose to deny the gospel of Christ, how do we explain these statistics? Why are the people in, say, the SE United States more likely to "choose" to believe in Jesus and the Bible, while people in Indonesia are more likely to "choose" to believe in Allah and the Koran?
Why is the concentration of fools so disparate?
Because only God does the choosing and he did it before the creation of the world as Ephesians 1:4 says. Jesus also says that the chosen will be few.
So if God did the choosing and it was out of their hands, they aren't fools then are they? 
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/24/2008 3:07:51 PM
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steve7150
Posts: 215
Joined: 5/16/2005
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quote:
1. God "has to" send sinners to Hell (the Lake of fire) because nothing unholy can enter Heaven.
2. At the same time, God has made full provision for every sinner to enter Heaven through the blood of Christ and His righteousness. Therefore there is no excuse to go to Hell.
3. When sinners hear the Gospel, they must decide to believe and repent. If they disobey the Gospel, they will remain outside Heaven.
Was'nt Satan in heaven? Is he Holy? Sin can't be in the presence of God? Was'nt Jesus in the midst of sin?
Did'nt God walk with sinful Adam in the garden and question him?
Is hell necessarily eternal?
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/24/2008 5:33:32 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5660
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
Can anyone show me in Scripture where it states that a person goes to heaven or hell (a place of eternal torment) after they die?
Maybe this passage;
(Rev 20:12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(Rev 20:13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(Rev 20:14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(Rev 20:15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
and supported with
(Mar 9:43) And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
(Mar 9:44) Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/25/2008 1:25:34 AM
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mushhead
Posts: 513
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
I started a thread dealing with whether or not belief is a matter of choice...What it boils down to is this statement, and how it is completed:
I chose to believe in God/Jesus because __________.
I have yet to see a satisfactory completion. Or, if you or anyone else on this thread would like to take a stab at the statement right here?
thanks,
abraxas
(Content of original post edited to remove statements directed to RC James)
abraxas,
If anyone has already replied with something like the following (I haven't read through the entire thread yet) I apologize.
Here is a question for you: Do you believe in God/Jesus? If not, then complete the following statement:
I chose not to believe in God/Jesus because_____________.
If you can complete this statement - acceptably - then I will complete yours.
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/25/2008 2:30:37 AM
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VCO
Posts: 114
Joined: 1/13/2008
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U&U
If you choose to have God be part of your life, which involves recieving and striving to submit to Jesus as LORD; you get your wish for eternity. If you choose NOT to have God be part of your life; you also get your wish for eternity, and Hell is the only place where God is not.
I know some struggle with how a loving God could send people to Hell. They are forgetting that God is not only Love, but also Perfectly Just. Also they seem to have forgotten that except for the Grace of God, we too would be headed for the Lake of Fire.
_____________________________
Titus 2:13
VCO
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/25/2008 8:55:19 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 302
Joined: 4/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mushhead
abraxas,
If anyone has already replied with something like the following (I haven't read through the entire thread yet) I apologize.
Hi mushhead, this is a new one so no worries. I don't believe Jesus was God, and my opinions about God are not exactly Biblical, and far from strong. Definitely maybe, certainly possibly not. 
As for your question, perhaps we can take God to mean the Biblical God, since I'm not a Christian. I can't answer it as such because I don't believe that I chose not to believe in God/Jesus. Sorry I wasn't clear about that in the post you came across--in the thread I referred to I was addressing people who believe that belief is a choice. I don't believe it is.
So instead of this statement--
I chose not to believe in God/Jesus because_____________.
I'll answer this one and you can decide if it's a suitable substitution.
I don't believe in God/Jesus because I'm not persuaded by anything I've read, seen, experienced, etc. I should add that in some ways I'm persuaded against it.
My belief is that by the time something persuades the mind, there is no time for a conscious decision. Nor is there a need for one--the belief is established with the persuasion.
I hope that doesn't oversimplify it into oblivion!
thanks,
abraxas
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/25/2008 2:33:48 PM
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mushhead
Posts: 513
Joined: 5/29/2005
From: Kearns
Status: online
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quote:
I'll answer this one and you can decide if it's a suitable substitution.
I don't believe in God/Jesus because I'm not persuaded by anything I've read, seen, experienced, etc. I should add that in some ways I'm persuaded against it.
My belief is that by the time something persuades the mind, there is no time for a conscious decision. Nor is there a need for one--the belief is established with the persuasion.
I hope that doesn't oversimplify it into oblivion!
thanks,
abraxas
abraxas,
Fair answer. Now, as promised, I'll try to answer yours.
I believe in God/Jesus because when I first heard about Jesus' dying for my sins it felt right.
Let me explain. I didn't really know anything about God, Jesus, or anything else. I was raised in a non-religious family. My only view of God was based on a friend's philosophy: "If there is a god I don't want anything to do with him because he doesn't seem to be able to stop evil." Besides that one conversation, I didn't think about God at all. The only time I even mentioned god was when I was trying to get away with a lie. I would say let God strike me dead with lightening right now if I am lying. I knew I could get away with that because it was really unlikely that a god did exist, and if he did, he didn't pay any attention to me.
One week after my sixteenth birthday I ran away from home. I'm not sure which was more disfunctional - my family or me. Probably a little of both (probably true of everyone in some way). I had been using drugs pretty heavily, skipping school, and generally living a double life. All that came to head one day, so I just walked away. No plan, no money, no clothes...you get the picture. It was a spur of the moment decision.
After two nights of sleeping outside in the extreme winter cold, I had made my way to a nearby city and stumbled onto a church in the middle of downtown. They housed homeless people, but they could not house me because I was a minor. So, they were going to send me to "Teen Challenge." Before they sent me on (in the end I did not have to leave) a man (who will remained un-named) sat down with me and told me about God's love expressed through Jesus. All I knew was what that man told me in his short presentation, but somehow I just knew (it felt right) that it was true.
I guess you could say that we all have a capacity for faith. That day, that story met my capacity for faith, and I chose to believe in Jesus. It was only later, much later, that I began learning more about God and the mechanics of salvation, i.e. why Jesus had to die, how God was drawing me, ect.
One last point: you claim that saying, "Believing is all you have to do," is the same as saying, "Believing is easy."
I'm not sure anyone is actually saying it is easy. For some this process is painful. My wife is a former mormon. Choosing to believe in the Jesus of the Bible meant that she had to reject the religion of her family. This process tooks months, and involved threats of divorce, and after concluding that mormon church was false, intentionally choosing to ignore that fact. It was painful...for her/me/us. It is a similar process for the adherents of other religions - Islam, Jehovas Witnesses all have to go through a process of dealing with the fact that their religious beliefs, and their world view based on those beliefs, are wrong. Not easy!
I know that explanation was long, but I hope it helps you see how belief works - at least for me.
< Message edited by mushhead -- 8/25/2008 2:49:47 PM >
_____________________________
MUSHHEAD
Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces. Matt. 7:6
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/26/2008 12:08:04 AM
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evry1needsgod
Posts: 500
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