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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 7/31/2008 9:41:59 PM
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URForgiven
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
quote:
Choice is then a matter of acknowledging what the mind has determined to be true, and of acting on that belief.
Hello my friend Abraxas:
Heres a quick way to end the philosophy-jargon about reality and God.
Take a hammer, and whack yourself on the thumb with one swift blow. That rush of pain to your brain will immediately connect you to the reality of your circumstances. You wont doubt the existence of your flesh, the reality of what you just did and it will revive the memory of a reality call 'painlessness' which you will wish you had again to end this pain. The invisibleness of 'painlessness' even though its only a memory now, is a reality that you will not for a moment doubt, but seek after and hope to find quickly. You will no doubt seek medical aid and whatever is necessary to bring yourself back into a state that was a moment ago a mere philosophy and abstract notion.
Borrowing from my illustration, what is invisible and maybe only a memory to us can with the right motivation become a very present 'reality' and 'necessity'.
When confronted with the realities of spiritual things, all your philsophy will evaporate and the quest for 'invisible help' will become absolute with no abstraction to cause you confusion about what you are really seeking after.
When Christ reveals your actual condition in the light of His Word you will know what you need to do without confusion.
John
Brilliant analogy Gloryandgrace! Thanks.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 7/31/2008 9:58:04 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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I've only skimmed through the thread at this point, but I heard a message on the radio today that seems to fit here.
Hell is eternal separation from God, right? Separation from God is something that no one has yet experienced, with the exception of Jesus, for a moment, on the cross. Right so far?
If God is love, truth, life, light, justice, peace, etc., then hell is devoid of these qualities. In hell, there will be no light, no truth, no love, no peace, no life. There will be hate, fear, death, darkness, pain, emptiness, lonliness, etc. Just for one, can you even imagine total darkness...the complete and absolute absence of light? For all eternity? Without end...ever.
God does not send anyone to hell. We all have the option to choose the gift of salvation and forgiveness or to reject it. To reject the gift of God's Son is to reject God. Therefore, we reject all God is...the truth, love, life, light...all that He is. If we reject all that God is, we have, by default, accepted all that He is not...which is hell. We have chosen hell for our eternal home.
Make any sense at all?
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/1/2008 1:40:37 AM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
Take a hammer, and whack yourself on the thumb with one swift blow. That rush of pain to your brain will immediately connect you to the reality of your circumstances. You wont doubt the existence of your flesh, the reality of what you just did and it will revive the memory of a reality call 'painlessness' which you will wish you had again to end this pain. The invisibleness of 'painlessness' even though its only a memory now, is a reality that you will not for a moment doubt, but seek after and hope to find quickly. You will no doubt seek medical aid and whatever is necessary to bring yourself back into a state that was a moment ago a mere philosophy and abstract notion.
Hello Gloryandgrace,
I do enjoy your analogy and I think it speaks well to the human condition. I'm reminded of a poem by George Herbert called "The Pulley" which if you haven't read it I think you would like it. I also appreciate how clear your imagery is laid out--I didn't have to actually go and bang my thumb with a hammer! 
However I believe your analogy is somewhat generic, in that it could help illustrate quite a few differing worldviews. Imagine a Mormon using the same analogy--now they believe you and I existed as intelligent beings before this life, so how much more poignant would that "memory of painlessness" be when they use it? They, and any other worldview-proponent could also sum it up by saying that one will know what to do without confusion.
I think what the posters here are doing is acting on a certain presupposition--that what is true to them is as obvious as the nose on their face, and not just to them but to EVERYONE. How else can they suggest that choosing to believe it is so simple? How else can a person feel comfortable suggesting that anyone who doesn't believe it is a fool? (Is there a response to post 22? Ezra?)
We all act on presuppositions, but we also examine them. What good is served by repeating, in various forms, "All we have to do is choose to accept the free gift" when it is the presupposition of that sentence that is being addressed? In order to accept the free gift, it stands to reason that one must BELIEVE a list of things. Acceptance is a choice, I'm saying that belief is not. There is a remarkable amount of determinism that goes into belief. That, I believe, is the explanation of my question in post 22.
I truly believe that there are sincere believers of all stripes. (Not that they all are, in any stripe!) I used to believe that was commonly accepted, but threads like this tell me that isn't so. Does Christianity require believers to use broad-brushed character assassination to explain "other" beliefs? I don't think it does--I see some who don't but I see some who do.
However a universal thread of sincerity is what I believe, and it's just as easy for a sincere Mormon or atheist or Hindu or agnostic to 'choose' to believe what you believe as it is for you to 'choose' to believe what they believe. They may or may not operate on the same presupposition when looking at you, that their belief is the obvious one. Huh!
Perhaps this is where the discussion must end (they all gotta end somewhere). I've been harping on this topic a bit--more than enough I suppose! I'm trying to phase that out as my life is starting to pile up on me. Sorry this got so long, it was the second cup!
take care,
abraxas
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/1/2008 8:14:34 AM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
Acceptance is a choice, I'm saying that belief is not. There is a remarkable amount of determinism that goes into belief.
The choice one must make is "faith". And many times, faith has to trump belief...even in the believer's life. Belief, and acceptance to a point, both have roots in emotion. The believer is one that has been saved by faith, which is not a "feeling".
quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
I truly believe that there are sincere believers of all stripes. (Not that they all are, in any stripe!) I used to believe that was commonly accepted, but threads like this tell me that isn't so. Does Christianity require believers to use broad-brushed character assassination to explain "other" beliefs? I don't think it does--I see some who don't but I see some who do.
However a universal thread of sincerity is what I believe, and it's just as easy for a sincere Mormon or atheist or Hindu or agnostic to 'choose' to believe what you believe as it is for you to 'choose' to believe what they believe. They may or may not operate on the same presupposition when looking at you, that their belief is the obvious one. Huh!
The Bible tells us that Jesus is the only way to eternal life...not "sincerity". There will be many, many sincere people in hell who have opted to be there.
There must be a penalty paid for sin. The thing that makes Christianity stand apart from these other religions (Mormonism, Hindusim, etc.) is that the penalty has been paid for us. There is absolutely no other religion on earth that can claim that for its followers.
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/1/2008 11:36:22 AM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
Hell is eternal separation from God, right? Separation from God is something that no one has yet experienced, with the exception of Jesus, for a moment, on the cross. Right so far?
If God is love, truth, life, light, justice, peace, etc., then hell is devoid of these qualities. In hell, there will be no light, no truth, no love, no peace, no life. There will be hate, fear, death, darkness, pain, emptiness, lonliness, etc. Just for one, can you even imagine total darkness...the complete and absolute absence of light? For all eternity? Without end...ever.
hi - well i wont get into the calvinistic debate on the part whether someone is elect or not... but i will comment on what you said -
the deprivation of God and all his wonderful mercy and grace being absent is just the tip of the iceberg,, the thought of God taking away all his love would make Hell a horrible place... however, then you get the other parts - the fire, the torment... etc.. i cant imagine going there.
I too read some sermons by the old old ministers from a few centuries ago - Jonathan Edwards and others, who really paint a scarey picture of hell and its prolly much worse than anyone can imagine.
if heaven is going to be glorious and we cant even imagine whats there, i bet same goes for hell, its prolly much much more terrible than one can ever imagine.. and it will never end.
the time to escape it is now, if one can hear the voice of the Lord, please grab onto it and cling to it like a survivor from the titanic amidst a sea of sharks.
_____________________________
I'm just one of those Calvinistic robots for the Lord :)
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/1/2008 9:33:07 PM
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Gloryandgrace
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Hello Abraxas: Im glad you didnt need the disclaimer "Dont try this at home"
My analogy like all analogies fall to the ground upon the entrance of new information.
My interest was only to make a generic statement. You saw it that way and Im glad.
The Mormons do have their own belief structures and their doctrines form the basis for their actions. But the question there becomes not a matter of existence and reality of spiritual things but the conformity to what biblical knowledge has revealed. The Mormons are truly on their own planet in that respect. Its not a matter of some semantics on some one verse or another but a complete and entire departing from the conformity to biblical truth, therefore they are considered un-orthodox and incompatible with basic Christian practise. Morality is not the only standard by which we measure the authenticity of a sect but biblical doctrine, works, fruit and morality.
Anyway....no side shifting of the OP here.
I pray God reveal himself to your heart and mind.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/5/2008 9:40:13 AM
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Abishua
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Can anyone show me in Scripture where it states that a person goes to heaven or hell (a place of eternal torment) after they die?
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/5/2008 10:21:01 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
Can anyone show me in Scripture where it states that a person goes to heaven or hell (a place of eternal torment) after they die?
The short answer is that scripture tells us that after Jesus ascended, He sat down at the righthand of the Father. Paul tells us that to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ. The logic follows that wherever the Father resides is where we will be immediately after death. Jesus also indicated in the story of the rich man and Lazarus that the lost do not go to the same place as the redeemed.
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/5/2008 11:51:08 AM
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Abishua
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
The short answer is that scripture tells us that after Jesus ascended, He sat down at the righthand of the Father. Paul tells us that to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ. The logic follows that wherever the Father resides is where we will be immediately after death. Jesus also indicated in the story of the rich man and Lazarus that the lost do not go to the same place as the redeemed.
Lazarus and the rich man is a parable.
Scripture teaches resurrection. Until then, nobody goes anywhere after death but the grave; which is, by the way what, "hell" means.
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/5/2008 12:02:54 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
The short answer is that scripture tells us that after Jesus ascended, He sat down at the righthand of the Father. Paul tells us that to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ. The logic follows that wherever the Father resides is where we will be immediately after death. Jesus also indicated in the story of the rich man and Lazarus that the lost do not go to the same place as the redeemed.
Lazarus and the rich man is a parable.
Scripture teaches resurrection. Until then, nobody goes anywhere after death but the grave; which is, by the way what, "hell" means.
If you already felt you knew the answer to the question you asked, why did you ask it???? 
quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
Can anyone show me in Scripture where it states that a person goes to heaven or hell (a place of eternal torment) after they die?
Jimbo was kind enough to give you a thoughtful response, but you apparently really didn't want the answer he had to give. Why the underhandness? If you want to "dialogue, discuss or argue" then just state your position simply and open the floor for discussion.
(I hate manipulation!)
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/5/2008 12:31:29 PM
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Abishua
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
If you already felt you knew the answer to the question you asked, why did you ask it????.....
.....Jimbo was kind enough to give you a thoughtful response, but you apparently really didn't want the answer he had to give. Why the underhandness?
I appreciate Jimbo's answer Peter.
I asked: "Can anyone show me in Scripture where it states that a person goes to heaven or hell (a place of eternal torment) after they die?"
Maybe I should have stated my position a little clearer...I'll give you that.
I'll try again:
I don't believe Scripture teaches that a person goes to heaven or burns eternally in hell after they die. Can anyone provide Scripture to the contrary?
< Message edited by Abishua -- 8/5/2008 12:43:05 PM >
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/5/2008 1:02:31 PM
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Diolectic
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From: Iowa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxasquote:
Diolectic writes, "I chose to believe in God/Jesus because I will not deny reality." I sense that you make the assumption that God/Jesus are part of reality. So of course with that assumption your statement is sensible. But now you have to explain why you believe God/Jesus are part of reality. Did you choose to believe that, and why/
This is just like asking:
Why you believe you are part of reality. Did you choose to believe that, and why?
Unless you are meaning that just because one knows reality, he does not necessarily acknowledge the fact.
The acknowledging of the fact is the actual belielving.
Your question is "why you acknowlege God/Jesus are part of reality?" Did you choose to acknowlege that, and why?"
That is the biggest mistery of free will.
The factors in our decision making are our priorities and value system which we set up throughout our life. No one knows how we build our priorities and value system and why we choose to put certain things in these factors of our decision making. IOW, no one also knows why &/or how we choose to put our affections on certain things in order to build our priorities and value system.
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/5/2008 1:41:23 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
The short answer is that scripture tells us that after Jesus ascended, He sat down at the righthand of the Father. Paul tells us that to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ. The logic follows that wherever the Father resides is where we will be immediately after death. Jesus also indicated in the story of the rich man and Lazarus that the lost do not go to the same place as the redeemed.
Lazarus and the rich man is a parable.
Scripture teaches resurrection. Until then, nobody goes anywhere after death but the grave; which is, by the way what, "hell" means.
I agree with Jimbo's use of this parable. Jesus used parables to explain spiritual realities. He would not have used a parable that led people to an untruth or false understanding. To have done so would have made Jesus capable of misleading people, and therefore lying, and that is not consistent with His character.
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/5/2008 6:20:31 PM
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Abishua
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
I agree with Jimbo's use of this parable. Jesus used parables to explain spiritual realities. He would not have used a parable that led people to an untruth or false understanding. To have done so would have made Jesus capable of misleading people, and therefore lying, and that is not consistent with His character.
I agree that Jesus would not lead people to an untruth or false understanding, but remember, Jesus did not speak in parables in order to make His message easier to understand either.
But for clarification sake, do you believe going to heaven or hell occurs immediately after death, or after the resurrection?
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/5/2008 8:51:21 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
I don't believe Scripture teaches that a person goes to heaven or burns eternally in hell after they die. Can anyone provide Scripture to the contrary?
Read Acts 7:56-8:2 and 2 Cor. 5:6 to know where Christians go after they die.
Read Lk. 16:22,23 to know where the unredeemed go. No one goes to the Lake of Fire immediately upon death.
quote:
But for clarification sake, do you believe going to heaven or hell occurs immediately after death, or after the resurrection?
There is a resurrection unto life and there is also a resurrection unto damnation.
Believers do not wait in "limbo" or "soul sleep" until they are resurrected. However, the unsaved wait in torment in Hades before death and Hades are cast into the Lake of Fire.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/5/2008 9:01:31 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abishua
quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
I agree with Jimbo's use of this parable. Jesus used parables to explain spiritual realities. He would not have used a parable that led people to an untruth or false understanding. To have done so would have made Jesus capable of misleading people, and therefore lying, and that is not consistent with His character.
I agree that Jesus would not lead people to an untruth or false understanding, but remember, Jesus did not speak in parables in order to make His message easier to understand either.
But for clarification sake, do you believe going to heaven or hell occurs immediately after death, or after the resurrection?
I agree with Ezra's summation. However, the bigger point for me in this post is the character of the Lord. His parables may have sometimes been purposely difficult to understand, but he would never have contradicted the truth. Therefore, the parable of Lazarus and the rich man should be enough to make the point that, upon death, we are either in conscious torment or conscious peace.
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/6/2008 12:15:33 PM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
This is just like asking:
Why you believe you are part of reality. Did you choose to believe that, and why?
I doubt you are saying that you = God/Jesus, so do you mean that the reality of God/Jesus is just as clear to you as the reality of your own self? I don't see how one must--or can--make a choice whether they actually exist--perhaps that's the point you're making?
quote:
Your question is "why you acknowlege God/Jesus are part of reality?" Did you choose to acknowlege that, and why?"
That is the biggest mistery of free will.
The factors in our decision making are our priorities and value system which we set up throughout our life. No one knows how we build our priorities and value system and why we choose to put certain things in these factors of our decision making. IOW, no one also knows why &/or how we choose to put our affections on certain things in order to build our priorities and value system.
I agree with all of that except for the usage of 'choice'--my position is that if the 'why' is beyond us, then it was not a voluntary act. Maybe more like a sneeze. (And 'involuntary choice' or 'unconscious choice' are oxymorons.)
Anyway it's been an interesting thread. My own interest in the idea comes from trying to believe things, and wanting to, but failing to.
< Message edited by abraxas -- 8/6/2008 12:32:26 PM >
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/6/2008 12:40:12 PM
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Peter_Gunn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
My own interest in the idea comes from trying to believe things, and wanting to, but failing to.
That's where faith comes in, Friend. God's ways are not our ways. There are situations and times when we just have to accept something as a Truth of God, even though we cannot logically follow it.
Your "wanting to" believe something may just be the Holy Spirit telling you it's Truth. Then you hear that little voice say, "Did God really say...? Did He really mean...?" That's when you bring your human logic into the situation and push faith into the backseat.
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/6/2008 1:16:27 PM
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Abishua
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Read Acts 7:56-8:2 and 2 Cor. 5:6 to know where Christians go after they die.
That passage stated that Stephen "saw the heavens opened and the Son of Adam standing at the right hand of God". It doesn't say anything about Stephen going to heaven. It does say in that passage, however, that they stoned Stephen and he fell asleep.
I'm sorry, but neither of those passages state that a believer goes to heaven after they die.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
There is a resurrection unto life and there is also a resurrection unto damnation.
Believers do not wait in "limbo" or "soul sleep" until they are resurrected. However, the unsaved wait in torment in Hades before death and Hades are cast into the Lake of Fire.
"For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:26-29)
After a person dies their immediate destination is the grave. All share this common destination after death.
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the breath shall return unto God who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
"In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." (Genesis 3:19)
"Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust." (Psalms 104:29)
Once dead...that's it. You cease to exist, no thoughts, no nothing....until the resurrection that is.
< Message edited by Abishua -- 8/6/2008 1:43:15 PM >
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/6/2008 1:23:26 PM
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abraxas
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Maybe so, Peter_Gunn. But it happened with Mormonism, and it happened again with Christianity. So......
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/6/2008 1:57:38 PM
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Diolectic
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I hope that what I sy in this post makes sense.
I also hope that I understood you. Pleas forgive me if I didn't and clarify what I misunderstood.
quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxasquote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
This is just like asking:
Why you believe you are part of reality. Did you choose to believe that, and why?
I doubt you are saying that you = God/Jesus, so do you mean that the reality of God/Jesus is just as clear to you as the reality of your own self? I don't see how one must--or can--make a choice whether they actually exist--perhaps that's the point you're making?
You are correct in your doubt, I am not equating myself as God: Me = God/Jesus.
I do mean that the reality of God/Jesus is just as clear to me as the reality of myself.
quote:
I don't see how one must--or can--make a choice whether they actually exist--perhaps that's the point you're making? You may know something to be true. You may know the existence of something, but deny the fact of the truth.
You may deny the truth so much enough to actually not believe the reality of the truth.
You must choose to acknowledge the truth and not deny it.
People hate the fact that there is a God and go so far as to deny the fact of His reality. They persuade themselves of a lie.
People can deny reality and believe a lie.
quote:
Your question is "why you acknowledge God/Jesus are part of reality?" Did you choose to acknowledge that, and why?"quote:
That is the biggest mastery of free will.
The factors in our decision making are our priorities and value system which we set up throughout our life. No one knows how we build our priorities and value system and why we choose to put certain things in these factors of our decision making. IOW, no one also knows why &/or how we choose to put our affections on certain things in order to build our priorities and value system. quote:
I agree with all of that except for the usage of 'choice'--my position is that if the 'why' is beyond us, then it was not a voluntary act. Maybe more like a sneeze.
Are you thinking that your priorities and value system are involuntary?
If we do not choose that which makes us choose, that means our choices are not our fault, for they were predetermined without us.
That means God cannot condemn us as guilty for even choosing to not believe Him.
quote:
Anyway it's been an interesting thread. My own interest in the idea comes from trying to believe things, and wanting to, but failing to. Fact is, the reason of the failure to believe is the lack of persuasion.
It also depends on your integrity, will you acknowledge the truth when you understand it to be true?
Tell me what your trying to believe & I will persuade you of the truth of the matter.
However, If what you want believe is actually a lie, I will not persuade you to belive it, furthermore, that might be the reason why you fail to believe it!
Example:
Could you believe that the moon is made of blue cheese?
I would say not, because the facts are against it. No one could persuade you because the ludicrousy of it
< Message edited by Diolectic -- 8/6/2008 2:26:28 PM >
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/6/2008 2:40:45 PM
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Diolectic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Peter_Gunn
quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
My own interest in the idea comes from trying to believe things, and wanting to, but failing to.
That's where faith comes in, Friend. God's ways are not our ways. There are situations and times when we just have to accept something as a Truth of God, even though we cannot logically follow it.
Your "wanting to" believe something may just be the Holy Spirit telling you it's Truth. Then you hear that little voice say, "Did God really say...? Did He really mean...?" That's when you bring your human logic into the situation and push faith into the backseat.
There is a difference between a mystery and a contradiction.
A mystery is something we do not fully understand yet. For example, the trinity.
We may believe the trinity because it don't contradict reality as a square circle does.
God is not A person, but persons.
Three distinct persons with the same mind, will, & purpose; they will always agree.
This is a mystery, but it don't contradict reality.
A contradiction is something that we do comprehend, but it is incompatible with reality and truth. We comprehend that a mystery can be, and that it is real because it makes sense. However, it is a contradiction to reality and truth, it can not be.
For example the teaching that God controls everything by His "sovereign will".
If HE controls everything, that would mean GOD made man to sin, for HE controls even us, everything.
This makes God is the author of sin, yet the contradiction is that man is responsible for sin which God controlled.
We can comprehend this, however, it is a contradiction.
One must never take a contradiction to reality and truth and accept it as a Truth of God, even though we cannot logically follow it.
God always makes sense, He is not non-scencical.
HE does not abide in the realm of unreality.
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That's when you bring your human logic into the situation and push faith into the backseat. This is dangerous!!!
Do not leave your brain at the door of any church!
If, however, God tells you to do something that does not make sense (at the moment), You must make sure that you KNOW it is God telling you.
Never guess on God! He will always give you a sure knowledge in this case.
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/6/2008 9:50:02 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 706
Joined: 6/12/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
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That's when you bring your human logic into the situation and push faith into the backseat. This is dangerous!!!
Do not leave your brain at the door of any church!
If, however, God tells you to do something that does not make sense (at the moment), You must make sure that you KNOW it is God telling you.
Never guess on God! He will always give you a sure knowledge in this case.
Absolutely...agreed!
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/9/2008 11:24:59 AM
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abraxas
Posts: 302
Joined: 4/8/2008
Status: offline
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Hi Diolectic, sorry for my sporadic posting.
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ORIGINAL: Diolectic
You may know something to be true. You may know the existence of something, but deny the fact of the truth.
What if different people are using this argument to support different positions? Evolutionists, Mormons (there is a strong "knowledge culture" in Mormonism--they commonly say "I know as surely as I stand before you today" or "I know with every fiber of my being"), atheists, etc. can make use of this argument--what puts one on firmer ground than the others?
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You may deny the truth so much enough to actually not believe the reality of the truth.
Does one do this knowingly?
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You must choose to acknowledge the truth and not deny it.
Yes, I think this is an important part of anyone hammering out their beliefs.
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People hate the fact that there is a God and go so far as to deny the fact of His reality. They persuade themselves of a lie.
People can deny reality and believe a lie.
Would you say this applies to non-Christian theists, or only those who don't believe in any God?
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Are you thinking that your priorities and value system are involuntary?
I'm still working out the relationship between will and priorities/values. There are definitely forces beyond our control.
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If we do not choose that which makes us choose, that means our choices are not our fault, for they were predetermined without us.
That means God cannot condemn us as guilty for even choosing to not believe Him.
Yes, a person can only be justly held accountable for those things in his control, and to the extent that they are in his control. Earlier on this thread (post 22) I posted the fact that some nations/cultures are predominantly Muslim, Christian, etc. Why is it that people generally remain within or close to the belief system they were raised in? Why is a person born into a Christian family so much more likely to remain Christian than not, and a person born into a Muslim household so much more likely to remain Muslim than not? Exceptions notwithstanding this is generally the case. I didn't post it to be cheeky, I think it is strong evidence of these factors beyond our control.
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It also depends on your integrity, will you acknowledge the truth when you understand it to be true?
Of course.
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Tell me what your trying to believe & I will persuade you of the truth of the matter.
How do I know it's the truth of the matter you're persuading me of, and not an erroneous opinion of the truth of the matter? 
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However, If what you want believe is actually a lie, I will not persuade you to belive it, furthermore, that might be the reason why you fail to believe it!
It might. Lots of people believe all sorts of false things, though, so sadly the failure to believe something doesn't automatically mean it's not true--nor does the success of believing something automatically mean that it is. Wouldn't that be nice!
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RE: God has to Send Sinners to Hell - 8/9/2008 12:56:06 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxasquote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
You may know something to be true. You may know the existence of something, but deny the fact of the truth. What if different people are using this argument to support different positions? Evolutionists, Mormons (there is a strong "knowledge culture" in Mormonism--they commonly say "I know as surely as I stand before you today" or "I know with every fiber of my being"), atheists, etc. can make use of this argument--what puts one on firmer ground than the others? We are talking about the existance of God. Mormonism does not deny the existance of God.
Evolutionists, are denying the evidence of God.
They know the truth of God, but they refuse to acknowledge the fact.
This is what I'm talkiing about.
There is actually no such thing as an Atheist. In reality everybody believes because GOD says they | | |
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