Is Church too feminine?

Is Church too feminine? (Full Version)

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Beanteaser -> Is Church too feminine? (7/29/2008 12:10:40 PM)
I posted this in the "Men Only" forum but would like to see what women think about it. I think church has become too feminine in recent years at the same time attendance among men has declined. Is this a problem? Reasons I think church is too feminine: Music has become romantic love songs based on feelings (it's debatable, but I think popular male artists sound too feminine), flowers adorn sanctuaries, Kleenex boxes are all over the place (for crying BTW), we share what we feel rather than tell what we think. Your thoughts?

Sideways -> RE: Is Church too feminine? (7/29/2008 12:19:51 PM)
Well, our church is Lutheran. We don't have Kleenex boxes; we have two pots of flowers at the alter, I think. Our songs are very traditional hymns, and if you ask my opinion, they are sung with all the energy of a funeral dirge. I hate it. We used to have more modern music, and some of them were emotional love songs, but not a lot of them, going by memory. We have a male pastor, male elders and many male SS teachers. I usually see husband/wife families at church. We may occasionally have a lady alone or with her children, but I've also seen single males there too. I can't say I see a problem from my perspective, but there are other Lutheran churches from different synods that are much more feminine. They are more liberal with female pastors and everything. My SIL's mother came from a church where the women pretty much ran everything. Now good friends of ours attend a 3rd Lutheran church (also a different synod) where women have NO ROLE in that church. Men do EVERYTHING, and women keep their mouths shut. Both of the above extremes are no good, in my opinion. No church is perfect, but I think our church has a good balance of feminine/masculine influence.

elastic -> RE: Is Church too feminine? (7/29/2008 1:06:02 PM)
Well, the church is called the Bride of Christ, so...

Beanteaser -> RE: Is Church too feminine? (7/29/2008 1:35:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: elastic Well, the church is called the Bride of Christ, so... Actually, the church is never called the Bride of Christ in Scripture, but that is a completely different thread.

doinkdom -> RE: Is Church too feminine? (7/29/2008 1:45:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: elastic Well, the church is called the Bride of Christ, so... snort[:D] I believe that in some churches, the seafoam carpet, whimsical paintings and church lady atmosphere might seem too feminine. But is that the case in all churches? Definitely not and those churches have fewer men as well. So, the excuses are getting more limited as to why men sit with the remote in their hands instead of their bibles. Seriously...stop whining, grow a pair and make whatever changes you see that need to be made to get yourself and other men where God would have them. ( -- although my husband, nor Mark Driscoll can be quoted on making that statement, I know they would still say it.[;)])

Sideways -> RE: Is Church too feminine? (7/29/2008 1:53:48 PM)
Didn't you already know that women are to blame for anything wrong with men? We dress to sexy, take charge to much, talk to much, etc.... Men aren't leaders because women won't let them![8\|] I kinda agree with doinkdom - stop blaming women, and do what needs to be done. If you think men should lead, then stand up and lead!

Beanteaser -> RE: Is Church too feminine? (7/29/2008 2:14:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sideways Didn't you already know that women are to blame for anything wrong with men? We dress to sexy, take charge to much, talk to much, etc.... Men aren't leaders because women won't let them![8\|] I kinda agree with doinkdom - stop blaming women, and do what needs to be done. If you think men should lead, then stand up and lead! You forgot to mention bad drivers too! [;)] BTW, I never blamed women for this. I don't recall anyone blaming women in the Men's forum either. quote: ORIGINAL: doinkdom Seriously...stop whining I am not whining either, just making an observation.

elastic -> RE: Is Church too feminine? (7/29/2008 2:23:00 PM)
not that you are blaming women or anything, but i do find it very telling that you suggest that music that is 'romantic' or based on feelings' is feminine instead of just calling that type of stuff music with bad theology. there are many hymns, written by women, that are perfectly theologically correct without being feminine. just an observation.

doinkdom -> RE: Is Church too feminine? (7/29/2008 2:23:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Beanteaser I am not whining either, just making an observation. sorry...that was a generalized statement

elastic -> RE: Is Church too feminine? (7/29/2008 2:29:49 PM)
and another thing, you think the church is too feminine because: quote: flowers adorn sanctuaries Have you ever heard the phrase The Rose of Sharon? or Lilly of the Valley? Why does the Bible use flowers as imagery if they are 'too feminine'. methinks it's more a matter of personal preference than actually being too feminine.

sudden -> RE: Is Church too feminine? (7/29/2008 2:39:19 PM)
Being a woman of course, would mean that no....I don't think anything is TOO feminine! I also have no idea what you are talking about. I attend a church like the first posters. There is no Kleenex. I've only seen people cry there on the rarest of occasions (funerals mainly). There are a couple of pots of flowers and the music i.e., "Oh Worship the King" could hardly be said to be "romantic"...I think I know the wimpy sort of "easy listening mixed with country mamby-pamby sort of music of which you speak. [:'(] I think it ought to be more feminine! As for more men attending church - as long as I can remember, there have always been more women....I think due to several factors. First, we live longer so of course there are more. Some people's concept of a meek Jesus would not fit in with their machismo. Sports are played more often nowadays on Sunday mornings than they were 30 - 40 years ago so if one wishes to join in ...they're going to miss church. The sports world seems to cater to men...and not Christian ones. Just some thoughts for ya Sudden

ta_mosquito -> RE: Is Church too feminine? (7/29/2008 2:50:40 PM)
I've never seen a lot of flowers in the sanctuary except at Easter. Songs - in our church, I don't see this. In my old church (which was more contemporary), I didn't see it, either. Tissues - I've seen one box at the front of my old church. I wouldn't consider that "all over the place." We do have tissues in the bathrooms both here and my old church, but they're there for whatever purpose one wants them, not specifically for crying. Male singers - I'm thinking back to the 50's when artists like Frankie Lymon were popular. They sounded a LOT more girly than the contemporary artists. [;)] I think this is just personal preference, not a reflection of the feminization of the church. There may be some frou-frou churches out there, but I've not been a part of them. Maybe you're thinking more of the seeker-friendly or charismatic churches (not to dis these groups, just asking)? Part of the problem (and I do see a problem with women doing everything in the church while the men sit around) is that the men just don't step up. There's a need, a task to do. The men are either busy working or tinkering in their workshops or whatever and don't volunteer, so the women do. The women do a good job of it, so when something else comes up, the men don't bother volunteering. It's a vicious cycle. Currently our local congregation has a (male) head pastor and all male deacons and elders. If a woman were to get nominated or (gasp!) elected to be an elder or deacon, it WOULD cause several families to leave. So very few females want to rock the boat by accepting a nomination. (Other churches in our denom have women elders and deacons, but our specific congregation is one of the few holdouts in this area.) But here's the problem: very few men are willing to be an elder or deacon. Our last election cycle, we had several people turn down the nomination and ended up with a vacant elder seat. One man did step up and accept the position after all - he originally declined so he could focus on his family. So now his family could be suffering because he filled this position. It's only a matter of time before the women step up to fill the vacancies that the men are unwilling to fill. When that happens, turmoil in the church will result due to the views of women in ministry. Whose fault will it be when this happens - the women for usurping, or the men for not doing their duty? Good question. Oops - I think I went on a rant. Sorry.

PopsiLufsJesus -> RE: Is Church too feminine? (7/29/2008 3:03:39 PM)
perhaps it is because it is usually the women who decorate the sanctuaries... just a thought. and I don't believe that has anything to do with why the attendance of males in the church has dropped; I do not know the real reason, but I am almost TOTALLY certain that that isn't it... actually until now I have never heard about a guy even caring about how the church looked...most guys I don't think even notice that... we go to church to meet with God and with others not to devote our attention to the atmosphere aesthetic value...if you know what I mean? Worship God, devote your attention to Him and forget what the church looks like...

PopsiLufsJesus -> RE: Is Church too feminine? (7/29/2008 3:07:21 PM)
as far as the songs are concerned, I don't think they are meant at all to be mushy, mushy...just to get us into a more personal worship with Jesus

phosadaud -> RE: Is Church too feminine? (7/29/2008 4:07:40 PM)
My church (the pastors at least) are totally into this idea and even the men in our church want to gag. This idea that men are all Tim Taylor - cave men is not only totally wrong, but IMHO insulting to men around the world. In my church, there are no flowers in the sanctuary, they got rid of any flowers and such on worship slides on PPT, they have the "wild game dinners" and the sports events and the hunting trips and the fact is, the men's ministry is still small in comparison to the women's ministry (which ironically I am not a part of because it's too "girly" for my taste). I get so tired of trying to put everyone in a nice little box and telling them what they must like and must not like. Let's be honest: You don't see men not going to a restaurant, because they have flowers in the lobby area. You don't see men avoiding these same restaurants that play "mushy" music either. In fact, some of the "mushiest", most passionate songs to God were written by and performed by men. And some things that have been done away with in terms of "too feminine" are human things - not feminine things. Good gravy people - read the Bible if you think we get too mushy in church! Read what David wrote... What Paul wrote... What Jesus said... Being a man doesn't mean you don't have emotions and you don't care or can't be passionate about God. Being a man means you SHOULD have emotions and you SHOULD care and you SHOULD be passionate about God. Remember what God said about David - the "mush" King himself? He was a man after God's own heart. The fact is that I know many very masculine men - police officers, soldiers, carpenters, laborers, etc and I've seen these same men weep before God, shout out their love for our Lord and wrap their arms around their brother who is hurting in a big huge hug. THAT is manly. Not some guy who only sings at the "heavy" songs, who will only go to the sports parties and not the missions fundraiser, and who tells his hurting brother to "get over it" and walks away. That's weeny. As I state earlier, my church is doing the "masculine" thing and it's not attracting men to church anymore than flowers in the sanctuary attracts women. Why? Because that's not what church is about! Any man who leaves the Body of Christ because of kleenex in the pews was nothing more than a seat warmer and certainly not a man of God. Maybe the reason some men are supposedly leaving the churches is that God is cleaning house. OK, mini rant over....

Sideways -> RE: Is Church too feminine? (7/29/2008 4:17:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ta_mosquito Part of the problem (and I do see a problem with women doing everything in the church while the men sit around) is that the men just don't step up. There's a need, a task to do. The men are either busy working or tinkering in their workshops or whatever and don't volunteer, so the women do. The women do a good job of it, so when something else comes up, the men don't bother volunteering. It's a vicious cycle. I totally agree with you. Personally, I think men are just looking for an excuse to relax during their free time and not serve the church. If certain things at your church are bothering you, then step up! Suggest new songs you would prefer to sing, changes to the look of the sanctuary, whatever you can think of. I have seen men here at CW say that if only the women would step back, then and only then would men step up. So, we're supposed to let our church fall to pieces because men want to watch ESPN? Our church has several masculine-oriented ministries: 1.) A firewood chopping ministry - How much more masculine can you get then chopping firewood? 2.) Maintenance Saturdays where people fix stuff, clean up, tear down and put up - Men like projects don't they? 3.) Helping folks who are out of a job - It's very manly to help a guy support his family by giving practical assistance in his job hunt.

phosadaud -> RE: Is Church too feminine? (7/29/2008 4:21:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sideways I have seen men here at CW say that if only the women would step back, then and only then would men step up. Apparently these men have no concept of what a leader is. Good thing they aren't in a leadership position. They'd fail miserably.

doinkdom -> RE: Is Church too feminine? (7/29/2008 4:32:40 PM)
If you have good godly men in leadership, then good godly men should be following...if not, then find some new men.

Auben -> RE: Is Church too feminine? (7/29/2008 5:37:43 PM)
If the church is too feminine, men made it that way. Women still aren't encouraged to be pastors, teachers (other than of children), deacons, or even to usher. If you want to find someone to blame I think you're going to have to look a bit closer to home. Oh, I forgot, we've always been allowed to clean the church building, 'beautify' it and keep it well supplied. We're also allowed to sing and even lead singing occasionally. [8\|] I think modern men need to suck it up and take responsibility for failing to disciple other men and be involved in church life. If there are less men in church it has more to do with that and less to do with flowers in the sanctuary. That tradition goes back centuries. Get over it. Oh yeah, and 'Amazing Grace?' Totally emotional. That's why people like it. They can relate.

p31woman -> RE: Is Church too feminine? (7/29/2008 9:17:24 PM)
:: standing up and applauding doinkdom,Auben, phosadaud, elastic, and Sideways ::

retro-goddess -> RE: Is Church too feminine? (7/30/2008 11:39:14 AM)
If you mean talking about church being too feminine in how it looks - I can't answer that. If you mean talking about church being too feminine in how it runs, I need to agree with the other ladies. Not enough men (and there are plently of men in my church) just don't step up and lead. On another note, I got into a conversation with a guy friend of mine last week. He says in a broad sweeping statement that "the reason today why marriages fail is that women don't submit to their husbands." I said "show me a husband that leads and is will to die for his wife, and I'll show you a woman who has no problem submitting." The point being is that there is equal responsibility on both sides. You can't blame one person without looking at yourself first (or your gender.)

stellaluna -> RE: Is Church too feminine? (7/30/2008 11:53:11 AM)
You guys should check out the "where are the men" thread in ministry leaders. Enlightening.

LoyalFriend -> RE: Is Church too feminine? (7/30/2008 1:41:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Beanteaser I think church has become too feminine in recent years at the same time attendance among men has declined. Is this a problem? Your thoughts? Men are leaders so shouldn't they be leading the way to church? Quit worrying about flowers and music, get busy. I'd say be the man and man up. Men who want to attend church do and those who do not do what they want to do.

saraimay75 -> RE: Is Church too feminine? (7/30/2008 2:04:00 PM)
I agree with LoyalFriend. My last church had men come and we had flowers tissue boxes and sang with feeling. We also hugged. The church I am currently going to may not have flowers or tissue boxes...But we sing with feeling. And we hug. I guess these men figure that church is only a part of the day and they can go tinker and watch sports after or before church. We have men singing on stage with feeling. Dancing also. My chuch is also headed up by a husband and wife Pastoral team. When the wife spoke men came to hear her. I guess these men are manning up to be with G-d.

phosadaud -> RE: Is Church too feminine? (7/30/2008 3:13:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: stellaluna You guys should check out the "where are the men" thread in ministry leaders. Enlightening. Thanks... I needed to rekindle the urge to do this: [sm=comp1.gif][sm=comp1.gif][sm=comp1.gif]

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