|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: What does it mean to be gothic? - 8/4/2008 7:23:08 PM
|
|
|
TheIrishBull
Posts: 1
Joined: 8/4/2008
Status: offline
|
Bottom line they are crying out "Mommy/Daddy Love Me!" they enjoy the attention they get for looking strange.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What does it mean to be gothic? - 8/5/2008 7:33:42 PM
|
|
|
GothicXian
Posts: 29
Joined: 7/11/2006
Status: offline
|
To OneJohn, yes goths typically make our own clothes; or buy exsistancing things from all over (Wal-Mart, Kohl's, etc, and modify them in whatever way we see fit); we also buy online from goth clothing sites; the reason I said Victorian was to give only a mere example of the many styles of gothic clothing; from club and "graver" wear; to Romantigoth clothes (Victorian, Edwinian clothes) to even "corprate goth" stylings. As for talking to just casually dressed people; yes they take me very seriously because i dress in a minimalistic manner (I dress in black and other dark shades but don't do anything outlandish, I do wear a nice looking trench coat that gets quite alot of compliments :P. The only challenge I encounter are some people's stereotypical or one-diminsional perceptions that they probably know little to nothing about, or the teens that say: "Halloween's over" I actually find that comment quite hilarious at times though :P. I smoke very little to none, but I do enjoy a good clove once in awhile. Its kind of a goth "thing" to smoke cloves :P (kind of a self-camp at the "tortured artist thing"). Another aspect of goth culture is humor, it goes from self-camp and parody to witty and darkly sarcastic; goths are not at all afraid to laugh at themselves or how "serious" they may take themselves at times. Now as for another post someone made; your friend just is afraid of stereotypes and such (its the attitude that "refuses" labels and to "label" people when really, goths are quite comfortable to accept and be called goths, its the ones that refuse the so-called "label" that take themselves WAAAAAAY too seriously and are merely in the scene to be noticed or "unnoticed". And last but not least: "TheIrishBull, that's just harsh, not at all goths are attention-starved. just the posers :P; nah but seriously that's rather harsh to say.
_____________________________
"I believe that true christianity has nothing to do with man made
doctrine. I do believe, that understanding and following the teaching
of Christ is teaching for life. It’s not about the country club which they
created.” - Eric Clayton
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What does it mean to be gothic? - 8/5/2008 8:59:16 PM
|
|
|
stellaluna
Posts: 3521
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
I've spent 20-something years with goths, punks, skins, etc. If you've spent time in the scene, it's almost not worth trying to explain it.
GothicXian speaks the truth. Listen to him or her.
I'd like someone to tell me why they wear khakis, button-down shirts and loafers. Just for fun.
_____________________________
CW Underground
"In one century, we went from teaching Greek and Latin in lower schools to teaching remedial English in colleges."
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What does it mean to be gothic? - 8/5/2008 9:16:31 PM
|
|
|
AboundinginHisGrace
Posts: 216
Joined: 4/28/2008
Status: online
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Darion412
quote:
Why on earth would a Christian want to look dark and scary.
I'm not exactly sure why. I know there are some hardcore Christian bands that dress/look dark based on their genre.
A lot of "Christian" bands clam to be Christians, but that doesn't make them Christians.
_____________________________
"What a mercy it is that it is not your hold of Christ that saves you, but his hold of you." - Spurgeon
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What does it mean to be gothic? - 8/5/2008 9:19:39 PM
|
|
|
GothicXian
Posts: 29
Joined: 7/11/2006
Status: offline
|
I'm a guy by the way :P lol. I'm not leaving anytime soon I'll be ready and willing to answer anymore questions anyone has.
_____________________________
"I believe that true christianity has nothing to do with man made
doctrine. I do believe, that understanding and following the teaching
of Christ is teaching for life. It’s not about the country club which they
created.” - Eric Clayton
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What does it mean to be gothic? - 8/5/2008 9:21:43 PM
|
|
|
GothicXian
Posts: 29
Joined: 7/11/2006
Status: offline
|
I only know a handfull of bands you say are "alot". Or are you merely basing the "alot" perception on the fact that a band and its members wear dark clothing or write some very real and at times dark lyrics?
_____________________________
"I believe that true christianity has nothing to do with man made
doctrine. I do believe, that understanding and following the teaching
of Christ is teaching for life. It’s not about the country club which they
created.” - Eric Clayton
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What does it mean to be gothic? - 8/6/2008 5:29:24 PM
|
|
|
slushie
Posts: 2280
Joined: 4/30/2006
Status: offline
|
I do know a band that writes some very good music... the members are Christians but they do not call themselves a Christian band.
Some dark lyrics... like the ones the people in my friends' band - there's nothing wrong with those. I would call it dark in the sense that it talks about some very real issues (check out www.forgetthegirl.com) and emotions that people feel. But it's not all dark and sad and emo. At the end it does point to some Hope that's out there.
But if there were Christian bands that went on and on about how hopeless life is and how they'd rather just say in their rooms and cut or sit around smoking cloves because they don't have anything better to do, then that's over the top.
_____________________________
Testify to Love
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What does it mean to be gothic? - 8/6/2008 6:05:58 PM
|
|
|
GothicXian
Posts: 29
Joined: 7/11/2006
Status: offline
|
I know a few Christian bands who have all Christian members; right Christian-laced and overtly Chrisitan songs but refuse the title of being a "Christian band" solely because they themselves believe a band cannot be Christian, only its members (which I wholeheartedly agree with). That being said; look up the Christian band Virgin Black's lyrics and tell me what you think.
_____________________________
"I believe that true christianity has nothing to do with man made
doctrine. I do believe, that understanding and following the teaching
of Christ is teaching for life. It’s not about the country club which they
created.” - Eric Clayton
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What does it mean to be gothic? - 8/6/2008 6:47:29 PM
|
|
|
GothicXian
Posts: 29
Joined: 7/11/2006
Status: offline
|
Getting back on topic with this topic; I think if I had to define goth (which I know some people want me to do lol) I would use this song; its by a Christian gothic rock band called The Awakening; the song is called The Dark Romantics:
We are the Dark Romantics
The Dark Romantics in our candle's glow
We are the Dark Romantics
and our dreams are where the poets go.
Oh!
Go!
The photograph child
holds her head in shame
While the Crystal Wilde
fears a statue with no name
The velvet touch
of the warmest mystery
Is where our kind
welcomes serenity
We are the Dark Romantics
The Dark Romantics in our candle's glow
We are the Dark Romantics
and our dreams are where the poets go.
Your eyes are shut
to the world that we hold dear
You mock the way we paint ourselves
You mock our Theatre tears
We bow in love
I know the Angels smile
Drinking on emotion
Lighting altar fires
We are the Dark Romantics
The Dark Romantics in our candle's glow
We are the Dark Romantics
and our dreams are where the poets go.
Oh, we will be
Passionate, delicate
Oh we can see
all that God has given
It's surreal
Surreal
(surreal)
The photograph child
holds her head in shame
While the Crystal Wilde
fears a statue with no name
Oh, we are the Dark Romantics
The Dark Romantics in our candle's glow
We are the Dark Romantics
and our dreams are where the poets go.
Oh, we will be
Passionate, delicate
Oh, we can see
all that God has given
It's surreal
Oh, surreal
(surreal)
We are the Dark Romantics
The Dark Romantics in our candle's glow
We are the Dark Romantics
and our dreams are where the poets go.
The dark romantics
Step away, oh
Step away with me
That pretty much sums it up lol.
_____________________________
"I believe that true christianity has nothing to do with man made
doctrine. I do believe, that understanding and following the teaching
of Christ is teaching for life. It’s not about the country club which they
created.” - Eric Clayton
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What does it mean to be gothic? - 8/6/2008 8:55:17 PM
|
|
|
slushie
Posts: 2280
Joined: 4/30/2006
Status: offline
|
Like those lyrics.
I don't think those lyrics are bad in any way...
_____________________________
Testify to Love
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What does it mean to be gothic? - 8/6/2008 10:42:37 PM
|
|
|
Darion412
Posts: 18
Joined: 10/15/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
A lot of "Christian" bands clam to be Christians, but that doesn't make them Christians.
Of course. There are still bands that truly follow Christ and still dress dark though.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What does it mean to be gothic? - 8/7/2008 4:42:54 PM
|
|
|
faroukfarouk
Posts: 740
Joined: 4/16/2008
Status: offline
|
Saviour Machine, and the lead singer Eric Clayton are generally reckoned to be expressive of what is known as the Christian Gothic musical genre. I'm not a fan but look them up in a seach engine and judge for yourself. Often Gothic style for young people simply means a liking for floppy black clothes, plenty of mascara and chunky jewelry.
_____________________________
Trust the Bible.
Trust the Lord.
Don't trust the appearance of things.
(I'm a guy. Some tattoo designs look nice, though...but I haven't worn my earrings lately. So, think the lady in the avatar is my sister?)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What does it mean to be gothic? - 8/7/2008 6:55:35 PM
|
|
|
GothicXian
Posts: 29
Joined: 7/11/2006
Status: offline
|
I've actually met and spoke with Eric; he's truely a God focused man and so is his family from what he says. Try to find some interviews from him, what you read is what you get in person basically he's down to earth and honest. I was going to mention Saviour Machine but I thought it might have over stated the fact of Christian Gothic Rock (opera and metal) bands.
_____________________________
"I believe that true christianity has nothing to do with man made
doctrine. I do believe, that understanding and following the teaching
of Christ is teaching for life. It’s not about the country club which they
created.” - Eric Clayton
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What does it mean to be gothic? - 8/7/2008 7:07:41 PM
|
|
|
faroukfarouk
Posts: 740
Joined: 4/16/2008
Status: offline
|
GX:
Really, so was he in his stage dress code, coloring and earrings etc, when you talked with him?
I never seen him in person anyway.
quote:
ORIGINAL: GothicXian
I've actually met and spoke with Eric; he's truely a God focused man and so is his family from what he says. Try to find some interviews from him, what you read is what you get in person basically he's down to earth and honest. I was going to mention Saviour Machine but I thought it might have over stated the fact of Christian Gothic Rock (opera and metal) bands.
_____________________________
Trust the Bible.
Trust the Lord.
Don't trust the appearance of things.
(I'm a guy. Some tattoo designs look nice, though...but I haven't worn my earrings lately. So, think the lady in the avatar is my sister?)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What does it mean to be gothic? - 8/7/2008 7:38:32 PM
|
|
|
GothicXian
Posts: 29
Joined: 7/11/2006
Status: offline
|
Lol no when I was living in California up until my parents and I moved 3 months ago; I was able to get in contact with him (he lived just 10 minutes away from me lol) so through my patience and persistance; he called me one night (he had my phone number from his spokesperson but was afraid I was an early sleeper; which I'm not lol) so we talked for 3 hours about a number of topics, then about 2 months after that on Dec. 2nd we met up at a Starbucks by his house. He was of course dressed casually and so was I (well as casual as I can dress lol), he's a great guy and never at all in a hurry to do this or that (busy yes) but he'll drop everything and just talk.
_____________________________
"I believe that true christianity has nothing to do with man made
doctrine. I do believe, that understanding and following the teaching
of Christ is teaching for life. It’s not about the country club which they
created.” - Eric Clayton
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What does it mean to be gothic? - 8/8/2008 1:29:50 PM
|
|
|
IMA_CHRISTIAN
Posts: 783
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Darion412
quote:
Why on earth would a Christian want to look dark and scary.
I'm not exactly sure why. I know there are some hardcore Christian bands that dress/look dark based on their genre.
that just goes to show you that it is not right for them to display such dress/demeanor/manner.
_____________________________
I will extol Thee, my God, O King, and I will bless Thy name forever and ever. Great is the Lord and greatly to be praised, and His greatness is unsearchable" (Psalm 145: 1 & 3)
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What does it mean to be gothic? - 8/8/2008 3:20:21 PM
|
|
|
GothicXian
Posts: 29
Joined: 7/11/2006
Status: offline
|
And yet you read no lyrics from them; let me post a few lyrics from some Christian bands you could fit under gothic rock or metal and black metal:
From Virgin Black, A Poet's Tears Of Porcellan:
As tears again bedew my cheek
To Your knees I cling
Oh merciful one
Show me Your glory
Was I not bruised?
Have You not healed?
They dance to silence
But Your song I hear
Holy Lord, fathomless God
tears flow
But the water is sweet
Holy Lord, fathomless God
I fall as one dead
With quivering lips
Blessed be, priest and friend
All Heavens bow
In admiration
Fathomless depth
Measureless height
Great is Your holiness
"And I Am Suffering" (again from Virgin Black)
My God be upheld in our distress
My cries fill the air, my cries fill the air
the fangs of suffering tear at my bosom
and refuse to release their hold
when will my sorrow begin to pale
when will my sorrow begin to pale
Lux aeterna luceat eis Domine
when will my sorrows begin to pale
my cries fill the air
I have been struck and I am suffering
when will my sorrow begin to pale
Fom the Christian black metal band Extol, Of Light and Shade:
Indifference surrounds me / yet my heart is secure
The shadows grow stronger / yet my spirit is protected
Observing the extreme absurdities
Still my heart can't be moved
I can rest in the loser's haunt
For the Victorious has filled the void inside
I can wander by the source of hell
For the Lord of all lives in me
In these circumstances I dwell
Thank God, In Him I am not a part of this
My inspiration, Giver of Life
I want to shine, radiate Your presence
I want to show them the warmth of truth
That You showed me
So they can understand
Who You are and why I worship You
Even if my life should end / In the valley of the shadows
My spirit will exist in a new dimension
Forever with Him, my Father
One more from Extol, Undecieved:
She lies in her bed staring into nowhere
Tears running down her face
An open wound bleeding
Her body turns pale
Recalling the road leading away from right
As the dark had appeared as light
Tricked to cross the line, dragged further in
Then trapped in a swirl of wicked lies
Now, no sign of light, no sign of hope
As a dark shadow enters her room
A freezing chill runs down her spine
The presence of death fills the room
The shadow encircles her, pale of fear
Slowly draining the last drops of life
Her last strength she forces through
And cries out to the Lord she used to know
Overwhelming light annihilates the dark
Immediate rest fills her heart
My dear child, come to Me
I will restore you and embrace you with My love
Sure some of these are rather dark lyrics but not without the hope or love of God. You can disagree with me if yo wish.
< Message edited by GothicXian -- 8/8/2008 3:31:35 PM >
_____________________________
"I believe that true christianity has nothing to do with man made
doctrine. I do believe, that understanding and following the teaching
of Christ is teaching for life. It’s not about the country club which they
created.” - Eric Clayton
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What does it mean to be gothic? - 8/8/2008 5:20:12 PM
|
|
|
kmbmhands
Posts: 13
Joined: 8/1/2008
Status: offline
|
Goths are kids that fit in with each other by smearing on white face paint, black eye liner and silly clothes.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What does it mean to be gothic? - 8/8/2008 5:28:54 PM
|
|
|
GothicXian
Posts: 29
Joined: 7/11/2006
Status: offline
|
And that's the attitude the fosters other's to not want to hear what Christians have to say because the show little to no respect for teens and young adults' interest in different things (particularly subcultures). Quite sad really.
_____________________________
"I believe that true christianity has nothing to do with man made
doctrine. I do believe, that understanding and following the teaching
of Christ is teaching for life. It’s not about the country club which they
created.” - Eric Clayton
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What does it mean to be gothic? - 8/8/2008 5:43:48 PM
|
|
|
kmbmhands
Posts: 13
Joined: 8/1/2008
Status: offline
|
LOL, the only thing sad around here is you.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What does it mean to be gothic? - 8/8/2008 5:45:46 PM
|
|
|
slushie
Posts: 2280
Joined: 4/30/2006
Status: offline
|
I like it that they have the message about hope and the love of God - what we need to hear. The darkness itself is a part of life on this earth but it doesn't have to be the controlling factor or the thing that we succumb to. Sure, we feel those dark emotions but that doesn't mean that there isn't any hope or God.
I like those lyrics.
Maybe because I'm a teenager myself who loves wearing all black... but from what I've been reading and such I think GothicXian is right.
_____________________________
Testify to Love
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What does it mean to be gothic? - 8/8/2008 5:59:22 PM
|
|
|
GothicXian
Posts: 29
Joined: 7/11/2006
Status: offline
|
I'm not right, God is; and that is what these bands I listen to, try to offer the right solutions and answers, I was just looking at more songs by The Awakening and found this to be a very positive song called: "The Maker" some of its lyrics ARE heavy but it is a very God-focused song:
I've taken the wrong
and taken the dark
I'm left with but a sight
Of missionary fields
and mercenary kills
and the prolific trite
I'm under a spell
and I'm under a cloak
of medicinal delight
I need to be sure
and I need a release
I need some other light some other life
Like the Maker
He's holding on to (the) believers
I got no time for (the) deceivers
I only want a paradise
oh, the Maker
He's no critical faker
and I'm the one who's taken
away from all the nowhere lies (repeat 2x)
A decadent earth
in need of rebirth
is tiring out my bones
With all that I've seen
and all I've become
I need another home
The drugs and the hate
the idiot fate
of political incest
Is getting me down
is letting me drown
but I'll get my rest
Like the Maker
He's holding on to (the) believers
I got no time for (the) deceivers
I only want a paradise
oh, the Maker
He's no critical faker
and I'm the one who's taken
away from all the nowhere lies (repeat 2x)
They're raping my ideals (repeat 2x)
I've taken the wrong
and taken the dark
I'm left with but a sight
Of missionary fields
and mercenary kills
and the prolific trite
I'm under a spell
and I'm under a cloak
of medicinal delight
I need to be sure
and I need a release
I need some other light some other life
Like the Maker
He's holding on to (the) believers
I got no time for (the) deceivers
I only want a paradise
oh, the Maker
He's no critical faker
and I'm the one who's taken
away from all the nowhere lies (repeat 2x)
A decadent earth
in need of rebirth
is tiring out my bones
With all that I've seen
and all I've become
I need another home
The drugs and the hate
the idiot fate
of political incest
Is getting me down
is letting me drown
but I'll get my rest
Like the Maker
He's holding on to (the) believers
I got no time for (the) deceivers
I only want a paradise
oh, the Maker
He's no critical faker
and I'm the one who's taken
away from all the nowhere lies (repeat 2x)
With the Maker...
_____________________________
"I believe that true christianity has nothing to do with man made
doctrine. I do believe, that understanding and following the teaching
of Christ is teaching for life. It’s not about the country club which they
created.” - Eric Clayton
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What does it mean to be gothic? - 8/8/2008 6:08:23 PM
|
|
|
kmbmhands
Posts: 13
Joined: 8/1/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: GothicXian
I'm not right, God is; and that is what these bands I listen to, try to offer the right solutions and answers, I was just looking at more songs by The Awakening and found this to be a very positive song called: "The Maker" some of its lyrics ARE heavy but it is a very God-focused song:
I've taken the wrong
and taken the dark
I'm left with but a sight
Of missionary fields
and mercenary kills
and the prolific trite
I'm under a spell
and I'm under a cloak
of medicinal delight
I need to be sure
and I need a release
I need some other light some other life
Like the Maker
He's holding on to (the) believers
I got no time for (the) deceivers
I only want a paradise
oh, the Maker
He's no critical faker
and I'm the one who's taken
away from all the nowhere lies (repeat 2x)
A decadent earth
in need of rebirth
is tiring out my bones
With all that I've seen
and all I've become
I need another home
The drugs and the hate
the idiot fate
of political incest
Is getting me down
is letting me drown
but I'll get my rest
Like the Maker
He's holding on to (the) believers
I got no time for (the) deceivers
I only want a paradise
oh, the Maker
He's no critical faker
and I'm the one who's taken
away from all the nowhere lies (repeat 2x)
They're raping my ideals (repeat 2x)
I've taken the wrong
and taken the dark
I'm left with but a sight
Of missionary fields
and mercenary kills
and the prolific trite
I'm under a spell
and I'm under a cloak
of medicinal delight
I need to be sure
and I need a release
I need some other light some other life
Like the Maker
He's holding on to (the) believers
I got no time for (the) deceivers
I only want a paradise
oh, the Maker
He's no critical faker
and I'm the one who's taken
away from all the nowhere lies (repeat 2x)
A decadent earth
in need of rebirth
is tiring out my bones
With all that I've seen
and all I've become
I need another home
The drugs and the hate
the idiot fate
of political incest
Is getting me down
is letting me drown
but I'll get my rest
Like the Maker
He's holding on to (the) believers
I got no time for (the) deceivers
I only want a paradise
oh, the Maker
He's no critical faker
and I'm the one who's taken
away from all the nowhere lies (repeat 2x)
With the Maker...
God may not be a "faker" but he is critical. Just ask all those people burning in hell right now.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What does it mean to be gothic? - 8/8/2008 6:08:57 PM
|
|
|
GothicXian
Posts: 29
Joined: 7/11/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: kmbmhands
LOL, the only thing sad around here is you.
I'm not a "thing", I'm a child of God; and yes I am sad at the attitude you're displaying toward me and a subculture of people that would like respect as much as anyone else.
_____________________________
"I believe that true christianity has nothing to do with man made
doctrine. I do believe, that understanding and following the teaching
of Christ is teaching for life. It’s not about the country club which they
created.” - Eric Clayton
|
|
|
|
|
RE: What does it mean to be gothic? - 8/8/2008 6:10:09 PM
|
|
|
GothicXian
Posts: 29
Joined: 7/11/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: kmbmhands
quote:
ORIGINAL: GothicXian
I'm not right, God is; and that is what these bands I listen to, try to offer the right solutions and answers, I was just looking at more songs by The Awakening and found this to be a very positive song called: "The Maker" some of its lyrics ARE heavy but it is a very God-focused song:
I've taken the wrong
and taken the dark
I'm left with but a sight
Of missionary fields
and mercenary kills
and the prolific trite
I'm under a spell
and I'm under a cloak
of medicinal delight
I need to be sure
and I need a release
I need some other light some other life
Like the Maker
He's holding on to (the) believers
I got no time for (the) deceivers
I only want a paradise
oh, the Maker
He's no critical faker
and I'm the one who's taken
away from all the nowhere lies (repeat 2x)
A decadent earth
in need of rebirth
is tiring out my bones
With all that I've seen
and all I've become
I need another home
The drugs and the hate
the idiot fate
of political incest
Is getting me down
is letting me drown
but I'll get my rest
Like the Maker
He's holding on to (the) believers
I got no time for (the) deceivers
I only want a paradise
oh, the Maker
He's no critical faker
and I'm the one who's taken
away from all the nowhere lies (repeat 2x)
They're raping my ideals (repeat 2x)
I've taken the wrong
and taken the dark
I'm left with but a sight
Of missionary fields
and mercenary kills
and the prolific trite
I'm under a spell
and I'm under a cloak
of medicinal delight
I need to be sure
and I need a release
I need some other light some other life
Like the Maker
He's holding on to (the) believers
I got no time for (the) deceivers
I only want a paradise
oh, the Maker
He's no critical faker
and I'm the one who's taken
away from all the nowhere lies (repeat 2x)
A decadent earth
in need of rebirth
is tiring out my bones
With all that I've seen
and all I've become
I need another home
The drugs and the hate
the idiot fate
of political incest
Is getting me down
is letting me drown
but I'll get my rest
Like the Maker
He's holding on to (the) believers
I got no time for (the) deceivers
I only want a paradise
oh, the Maker
He's no critical faker
and I'm the one who's taken
away from all the nowhere lies (repeat 2x)
With the Maker...
God may not be a "faker" but he is critical. Just ask all those people burning in hell right now.
What exactly does your statement have to do with this song? I think its quite a very good song and God focused; I don't see a problem with it?
_____________________________
"I believe that true christianity has nothing to do with man made
doctrine. I do believe, that understanding and following the teaching
of Christ is teaching for life. It’s not about the country club which they
created.” - Eric Clayton
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
