Having a Godly attitude... (Full Version)

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VisitorinWaiting -> Having a Godly attitude... (7/25/2008 6:04:23 PM)

My 5 year old son is very strong willed. Discipline with him is very difficult. He gets upset sometimes at slight things that don't deserve the attitude that he gives. He seems to care more about things than about people. I know that this is probably considered normal by worldly standards for a five year old, but I want to teach him to have a Godly attitude... He seems to understand salvation and all that it entails and has prayed a prayer to have Jesus in his heart. An example...yesterday my 5 year old was in the house. He threw an airplane that his dad had given him in the house. I took a step toward him and said, "Don't throw it in the house." I didn't say it in a way that would make him think that he was in trouble...just matter-of-factly. He picked it up and started running. I guess he thought that I was going to take it away from him. As I turned the corner to see him running, I saw him run right into his 2 year old sister...knocking her down, her back hitting the doorway to the kitchen. She cried, but didn't seem to have been hurt. She said that her hand hurt, which didn't even seem to hit anything. Nevertheless, we took the airplane away... it was only going to be for the evening...because he broke the rule of running in the house...and in the process, knocked his sister down. When he found out we were taking away the airplane, he cried and cried...a loud cry. Saying, "No, no, no, not my airplane, not my airplane." So, for that reaction, he got it taken away for the whole weekend. We explained to him that he hadn't even stopped to help his sister up, asked if she was okay, seen where she was hurt, etc, etc, but as soon as we told him that his airplane was taken away, he had a fit. He cared more about losing the airplane than he did about hurting his sister. I asked him what if he'd hit her really hard and made her bleed, and maybe even that she had to go to the hospital...he just looked at me. It just seems so uncaring. I have been repeating to him that he needs to care more about people than he does about stuff. I don't think I'm getting through. What do you more experienced parents have to say about raising children and teaching them Godly attitudes? How do you implement it? How do you get them to understand? I know some will come with age, but I don't want to have to wait years to see my son showing through the soft heart that I know he has...in more situations.



pbaribeault -> RE: Having a Godly attitude... (7/25/2008 6:35:40 PM)

That's a tough one. I see a lot in your example, but I don't know if a detailed analysis of that is really what you are looking for.

The key thing is that I think you are mis-characterizing his actions, saying that he cares more about one thing than another. Truely, all it is is that he cares more about what actually happened than what might have happened.

His sister was not hurt, and he could see that. His airplane, however, really was lost to him. You can't expect a kid his age to be able to grasp 'what might have happened' very well at most times. Expecting him to grasp it while he was all worked up over the airplane was just beyond his developmental level.

If you want this to be less of a problem, I'd advise you to work on his 'maybe' skills. At a calm time ask him what might happen if a boy was running wildly around a house. Make it fun. Would a dinosaur catch him and eat him? Might something get broken? Something of his? Somebody elses? Might the boy get hurt? Someone else? Then, when you've got all the possibilities laid out, that's when you tell him that you think it's a lot more important to think about people getting hurt than to think about stuff getting broken. You made the rule to keep people safe and un-hurt. People's bodies matter to you, and that's why you have a no running rule.

Do this about other things. What might happen if you go grocery shopping and forget your money? What might happen if the zookeeper accidentally leaves the lion's door open. What might happen if his school closed -- that might be a bit worrysome. The point is not to stress him out, but just to exercise his mental ability to predict consequences of choices & actions.

You should also do a role-play with him about the incident. Show him how to kindly check if sister is hurt, what to say and what to do. Then you pretend to be a hurt 2 year old, or use a toy to act it out, and let him practice expressions of caring in case of injury. If you haven't taught him that he is expected to do this, and how it is done, it's a bit tough to expect him to spontaneously come up with the right behaviour in the midst of all his emotions in a situation that wild.

Also about the airplane, you might have been clearer if you had disciplined his running with a running related consiquence. Confiscating the airplane might have been confusing if the offense was not about the airplane. Also, do you always make running a major-consiquence offense, or just when it turns out badly? If he is never allowed to run there should be one thing that always happens every time he runs, not depending on why he ran or whether he hits or hurts something. The bad choice was the choice to run (against the house rules) he should not be able to get away with a warning if he avoids obstacles (and people) nor should he get extra consequences for things that happened while he was running. (Unless they also were against the house rules)

Boy, I've got too much to say! I just wanted to add that if a melt-down reaction is against the house rules and going to earn him a punishment, you've got to be careful to teach him what kinds of things he is allowed to do to express frustration & anger. If he has no other way to express himself, you've got to teach him some before he explodes. Also, have you taught him practical ways to calm himself down when he wants to stop being upset?

OK, stopping now. Really.



Mrs.X -> RE: Having a Godly attitude... (7/25/2008 7:34:52 PM)

Great post, Pam.


quote:

ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
Boy, I've got too much to say! I just wanted to add that if a melt-down reaction is against the house rules and going to earn him a punishment, you've got to be careful to teach him what kinds of things he is allowed to do to express frustration & anger. If he has no other way to express himself, you've got to teach him some before he explodes. Also, have you taught him practical ways to calm himself down when he wants to stop being upset?

If it's not too off topic, I'd be interested in hearing more about the things you talked about in this paragraph if the OP is interested too.



VisitorinWaiting -> RE: Having a Godly attitude... (7/25/2008 8:22:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
If you want this to be less of a problem, I'd advise you to work on his 'maybe' skills. At a calm time ask him what might happen if a boy was running wildly around a house. Make it fun. Would a dinosaur catch him and eat him? Might something get broken? Something of his? Somebody elses? Might the boy get hurt? Someone else? Then, when you've got all the possibilities laid out, that's when you tell him that you think it's a lot more important to think about people getting hurt than to think about stuff getting broken. You made the rule to keep people safe and un-hurt. People's bodies matter to you, and that's why you have a no running rule.


Thank you. I will do that. We did talk about why we having a no running in the house rule. I think it would be better to do a lot of "What if...s" though and see how he responds. Maybe that will get his brain thinking more in that direction.

quote:

You should also do a role-play with him about the incident. Show him how to kindly check if sister is hurt, what to say and what to do. Then you pretend to be a hurt 2 year old, or use a toy to act it out, and let him practice expressions of caring in case of injury. If you haven't taught him that he is expected to do this, and how it is done, it's a bit tough to expect him to spontaneously come up with the right behaviour in the midst of all his emotions in a situation that wild.


We talked about what to do, and he seemed to understand. I didn't do a role play though, that might have been helpful. Today, he accidently knocked into his brother and first didn't do anything, walked away, and then came back to see if he was hurt, then gave him a hug and apologized. That's at least a step in the right direction, huh?

quote:


Also about the airplane, you might have been clearer if you had disciplined his running with a running related consiquence. Confiscating the airplane might have been confusing if the offense was not about the airplane. Also, do you always make running a major-consiquence offense, or just when it turns out badly? If he is never allowed to run there should be one thing that always happens every time he runs, not depending on why he ran or whether he hits or hurts something. The bad choice was the choice to run (against the house rules) he should not be able to get away with a warning if he avoids obstacles (and people) nor should he get extra consequences for things that happened while he was running. (Unless they also were against the house rules)


Running always gets a consequence, but if someone gets hurt in the process, it would add another consequence. Dd was NOT really hurt, and yes, he probably knew that. She's been grumpy lately anyway, so I'm sure that he's kinda "used" to hearing her cry a lot. I jus want him to respond with a more caring, loving, helpful attitude... Also, what would be a "running related consequence." Taking away the plane was something dh and I knew that he would remember and might make an impact on his remembering not to run in the future because it was something that he was LOVING to do at the moment. I really doubt that sitting him in his "naughty spot" would have made much of an impact as he does that so often...

quote:

Boy, I've got too much to say! I just wanted to add that if a melt-down reaction is against the house rules and going to earn him a punishment, you've got to be careful to teach him what kinds of things he is allowed to do to express frustration & anger. If he has no other way to express himself, you've got to teach him some before he explodes. Also, have you taught him practical ways to calm himself down when he wants to stop being upset?


Go ahead...say all you want to say. I am really open to lots of advice on him, especially. You can go further into what kind of things to teach him to do when a melt-down reaction is coming on. I remember hearing some things about this, but that was years ago in college...and practicing it on your students vs. your kids makes you more in tune with what to do...



pbaribeault -> RE: Having a Godly attitude... (7/25/2008 8:50:53 PM)

So, as far as melt-downs then...

First to clarify the terminology. In my world, a melt-down is a loss of emotional control, related to an incident that goes beyond a child's skills at coping with their own feelings and reactions. I'm not talking about tantrums, which are intentional behaviour designed to try to control the parent or accomplish something by being disruptive until they get what they want. The behaviours are related (tantrums begin when a child that is having a melt-down notices that something about it 'worked' so they try it again later.)

If your child is having melt-downs (not tantrums) which it sounds like is the case, step 1 is emotional education. That is learning words for feelings, learning to recognize them inside and talk about them. Role playing and reading are both excellent tools for this. Also observing other children and thinking about their feelings and how they are expressing them. That shouldn't take long in a 5 year old, who probably has most of this under his belt.

Step 2 is emotional awareness. This involves figuring out what emotions feel like when they are just beginning, vs what they feel like full blown, and learning to guess what kinds of things tend to make him feel what way.

Step 3 is management.

This means that he can recognize 'warning anger' for example, and maybe he would talk to himself, or breathe deeply like he was blowing bubbles, or find somewhere to be alone and read, or pick up his favorite teddy bear or something, to help him not to let his anger take over.

When he is feeling this way, he should say out loud, "I'm getting angry, but I don't want to melt down." Possibly over and over again. You should acknowledge what he has said and guide him to some good choices.

Once he is angry, other tactic include going for a run (outside at your house!) doing an angry dance, colouring an angry picture (scribbling), tugging on a bungee cord (no hooks!), jumping... or just having a place where he is OK to scream and shout without disturbing the rest of the family.

He should also be allowed to say in an angry but controlled voice, "I am VERY angry at you right now!" This is not disrespectful as long as it is not included in a display of temper. He should feel safe to tell you his feelings even if they are about you and they are not nice.

After any meltdown, there should be a mandatory calming time where he has to be still talking and interacting is not allowed. (Not necessarily physical isolation, but self-controlled confinement to a GOOD spot, with books & water etc. to get a grip on himself.) After this time, in an encouraging way you can ask him if he feels better and tell him that you are pleased that he was able to calm himself down. Then you can go over again what consequences that are still in effect and the reasons for them.

Eventually the hope is that he will skip the melt down and go straight to sitting and making himself be calm instead, by his own choice... and he'll feel good about it.



manda59 -> RE: Having a Godly attitude... (7/25/2008 9:01:40 PM)

Excellent advice, Pam. And very clearly explained.



pbaribeault -> RE: Having a Godly attitude... (7/25/2008 9:05:57 PM)

About consistent consequences.

The trouble I'm seeing is that it seems like you don't have a no-running plan. You have the "naughty spot" that has very little impact, and you have occasional inspirational circumstances where you can do something that really gets to him. Even a 5 year old can see the injustice in that. It's like a lottery. 9 times out of 10, it's no big deal, you do your sitting and you're done. The 10th time... woah! This breeds insecurity which leads both to non-compliance and to a breakdown in relationship.

If running is a deal, then you can make a set up that will remove the need for you to be spontaneous in your punishment. Maybe he can start the day with a bag of 10 raisins, and he looses one if he runs or breaks another of the house rules (the minor ones that relate mostly to personal conduct, not major offenses). Maybe he also has to sit on the "naughty spot" ... probably for a longer time, and apologize... or whatever seems good to you and also is something that gets to him... but not so badly that he can't cope. Maybe he can earn the raisins back too?

I'm not necessarily saying this system, just make any system where exactly the same thing happens for whatever offense. Practical actions get rid of the need for a lot of personal reminders and recriminations... which helps keep the love and openness between you. You won't be so frustrated and he will be within something he understands.

Hurting someone by accident should be another offense and have it's individual consequence, and hurting someone on purpose should be something else entirely.

---

It sounds like he is learning how to express sympathy when someone gets hurt. That's good. I just really didn't like to hear you talking about him 'not caring' when all you really knew was that he did not express sympathy in a way you expected him to (but hadn't really told him you expected him to). It's really harsh to say he didn't care. I wouldn't be surprised if a feeling of being upset at causing hurt actually contributed to his overwhelmed-ness in that original situation. The words were about the plane, but I doubt even he knew the sources of all his feelings.



Sunnymom -> RE: Having a Godly attitude... (7/25/2008 9:07:30 PM)

The only thing I have to add is that I don't expect a 'Godly' attitude from an unregenerate child. Depending on the child, five years old isn't too young to start addressing the fact that he has a sin nature that is naturally selfish and inclined to do wrong.

Other than that I agree with most of what pbari has posted, especially about thinking how a child perceives a situation. A young 'un like that has no idea of the ramifications of his actions or how to handle stress. He takes his cues from the authorities in his life, and if everyone else comes unglued in stressful situations, then he'll think it is SOP for him to do the same. There is an element of training that must take place for kids to know what is acceptable behavior.



MrsTracy72 -> RE: Having a Godly attitude... (7/26/2008 12:50:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pbaribeault

So, as far as melt-downs then...

First to clarify the terminology. In my world, a melt-down is a loss of emotional control, related to an incident that goes beyond a child's skills at coping with their own feelings and reactions. I'm not talking about tantrums, which are intentional behaviour designed to try to control the parent or accomplish something by being disruptive until they get what they want. The behaviours are related (tantrums begin when a child that is having a melt-down notices that something about it 'worked' so they try it again later.)

If your child is having melt-downs (not tantrums) which it sounds like is the case, step 1 is emotional education. That is learning words for feelings, learning to recognize them inside and talk about them. Role playing and reading are both excellent tools for this. Also observing other children and thinking about their feelings and how they are expressing them. That shouldn't take long in a 5 year old, who probably has most of this under his belt.

Step 2 is emotional awareness. This involves figuring out what emotions feel like when they are just beginning, vs what they feel like full blown, and learning to guess what kinds of things tend to make him feel what way.

Step 3 is management.

This means that he can recognize 'warning anger' for example, and maybe he would talk to himself, or breathe deeply like he was blowing bubbles, or find somewhere to be alone and read, or pick up his favorite teddy bear or something, to help him not to let his anger take over.

When he is feeling this way, he should say out loud, "I'm getting angry, but I don't want to melt down." Possibly over and over again. You should acknowledge what he has said and guide him to some good choices.

Once he is angry, other tactic include going for a run (outside at your house!) doing an angry dance, colouring an angry picture (scribbling), tugging on a bungee cord (no hooks!), jumping... or just having a place where he is OK to scream and shout without disturbing the rest of the family.

He should also be allowed to say in an angry but controlled voice, "I am VERY angry at you right now!" This is not disrespectful as long as it is not included in a display of temper. He should feel safe to tell you his feelings even if they are about you and they are not nice.

After any meltdown, there should be a mandatory calming time where he has to be still talking and interacting is not allowed. (Not necessarily physical isolation, but self-controlled confinement to a GOOD spot, with books & water etc. to get a grip on himself.) After this time, in an encouraging way you can ask him if he feels better and tell him that you are pleased that he was able to calm himself down. Then you can go over again what consequences that are still in effect and the reasons for them.

Eventually the hope is that he will skip the melt down and go straight to sitting and making himself be calm instead, by his own choice... and he'll feel good about it.


What she said....



locomom -> RE: Having a Godly attitude... (7/26/2008 12:02:15 PM)

Having had a child like yours, I sympathize. The major idea I would suggest is that you mostly make discipline positive. It is very easy and natural to fall into a negative pattern of discipline with a strong-willed child. Then he gets way too much attention for poor behavior.

The other thing I would suggest is a fairly short set of well-defined rules that are age appropriate. Your son at age 5 does not understand the consequences of his actions very far into the future. He will need training in sensitivity to others for quite a while, even through teenage years occasionally. Also if you choose one behavior a month to work with him, he will learn 12 positive behaviors each year. That really adds up for all involved and keeps him growing in confidence.

As far as this incident, you will probably need to be very careful of the escalating consequences. It is way, way too easy to escalate with a reactive child. (major sigh). Take care of your 2 year old first. Get your son to calm down so he can listen to you. Then have him apologize and make amends if applicable (such as a hug for his sister, or contributing to the cost of replacing something he broke according to how much he has), then deal with his reaction to your instructions. Teach him what to say when you give directions and expect him to say it.



Sadey -> RE: Having a Godly attitude... (7/26/2008 12:41:37 PM)

Don't forget to praise him when he does stop and see if his sibling is okay.
He certainly did well with his brother didn't he? That was sweet.
There is a huge difference between running into your sister and knocking her down and deliberately hurting her.
I don't know many 5 years old boys who are too intune with people's feelings, especially if they are rough and tumble boys. But now is the time to start teaching him about gentleness and kindness and just when you're ready to pull your hair out he will do something so sweet it will blow you away. Just make sure you treat him the way you want him to treat others.



Mrs.X -> RE: Having a Godly attitude... (7/26/2008 1:27:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pbaribeault

So, as far as melt-downs then...

First to clarify the terminology. In my world, a melt-down is a loss of emotional control, related to an incident that goes beyond a child's skills at coping with their own feelings and reactions. I'm not talking about tantrums, which are intentional behaviour designed to try to control the parent or accomplish something by being disruptive until they get what they want. The behaviours are related (tantrums begin when a child that is having a melt-down notices that something about it 'worked' so they try it again later.)

If your child is having melt-downs (not tantrums) which it sounds like is the case, step 1 is emotional education. That is learning words for feelings, learning to recognize them inside and talk about them. Role playing and reading are both excellent tools for this. Also observing other children and thinking about their feelings and how they are expressing them. That shouldn't take long in a 5 year old, who probably has most of this under his belt.

Step 2 is emotional awareness. This involves figuring out what emotions feel like when they are just beginning, vs what they feel like full blown, and learning to guess what kinds of things tend to make him feel what way.

Step 3 is management.

This means that he can recognize 'warning anger' for example, and maybe he would talk to himself, or breathe deeply like he was blowing bubbles, or find somewhere to be alone and read, or pick up his favorite teddy bear or something, to help him not to let his anger take over.

When he is feeling this way, he should say out loud, "I'm getting angry, but I don't want to melt down." Possibly over and over again. You should acknowledge what he has said and guide him to some good choices.

Once he is angry, other tactic include going for a run (outside at your house!) doing an angry dance, colouring an angry picture (scribbling), tugging on a bungee cord (no hooks!), jumping... or just having a place where he is OK to scream and shout without disturbing the rest of the family.

He should also be allowed to say in an angry but controlled voice, "I am VERY angry at you right now!" This is not disrespectful as long as it is not included in a display of temper. He should feel safe to tell you his feelings even if they are about you and they are not nice.

After any meltdown, there should be a mandatory calming time where he has to be still talking and interacting is not allowed. (Not necessarily physical isolation, but self-controlled confinement to a GOOD spot, with books & water etc. to get a grip on himself.) After this time, in an encouraging way you can ask him if he feels better and tell him that you are pleased that he was able to calm himself down. Then you can go over again what consequences that are still in effect and the reasons for them.

Eventually the hope is that he will skip the melt down and go straight to sitting and making himself be calm instead, by his own choice... and he'll feel good about it.

Thanks for this post, Pam.



VisitorinWaiting -> RE: Having a Godly attitude... (7/26/2008 4:10:48 PM)

Thanks for all of the advice. I appreciate it. I have tried some things with him today...some went smoothly, some not...but it will take time. I have been trying for a while to be less reactive to him. That really makes a difference. Sometimes I do well, sometimes I don't... Today, he got upset with me. He was touching something he shouldn't, so I said, "That doesn't belong to you...don't touch it." No more than 5 seconds later, he touched it, so I reached over and gave his hand a little slap. He got mad at me. Gave me one of those looks. I said, "Okay, you are mad. This is what you will do when you are mad." Almost immediately, he started to calm down. I took his hand and walked him to his room and told him to sit on his bed. I gave him his favorite stuffed animal, and I said, "Tell him why you are mad. You can stay in here as long as you want, but do not come out until you are calm. I will even close the door for you so you can talk to him without anyone else hearing you." I waited just outside the room to make sure he didn't break anything. He walked out about a minute later. He looked like he was calm, so I squatted down, looked him in the eye, and said, "Are you calm?" He said that he was...
I said, "Why were you mad?"
He said, "I was mad because you hit my hand."
"Why did I hit your hand?"
"Why did you hit my hand?"
"You know why, but I will answer your question. I hit your hand because you were touching something you are not allowed to touch. I had given you a warning."
"I'm sorry, Mama."
Then we hugged and gave kisses on each other's cheek.
That went well.
Later, we talked about it again. I said, "When you get mad, what should you do?"
He said that he was to go to his room and hold his animal..."But mama, I didn't tell him why I was mad?"
"Why not?"
"Because he might not like it if I am mad, and he won't be my friend anymore."
I told him that he would still be his friend, and it's good to tell someone or something what makes you mad sometimes.
I pray this will work. I don't want his anger to escalate. I do want him to learn gentleness, putting others first, and treating others as you'd want them to treat you. I think these would be good explanations of what I am wanting to instill in him right now.



pbaribeault -> RE: Having a Godly attitude... (7/26/2008 4:26:16 PM)

quote:

I do want him to learn gentleness, putting others first, and treating others as you'd want them to treat you.
This is great. It's a good goal for your son to grow up into that kind of person... But with goals like this you must remind yourself constantly that you can teach him behaviour through various methods of discipline, but it's going to take other things to change his motive from "be nice or you get into trouble" to "be nice because it's the right thing to do" to "be nice because the Holy Spirit invests me with real love for all people."

If you want him to behave in ways that are gentle and considerate you are going to have to be specific about the action result that you want from him, not so much about the state of his heart (that does matter, but it's a different and much longer process, and you don't want him acting like a little monster all the way until he becomes selfless for real). So, I mean that you teach these skills just like you teach him how to pour juice, tie his shoes and use his manners. You define what you want to see. You show and tell him what it is in clear specific terms. You practice with him. You remind him. You use something to motivate him.

Try not to get all tangled up in reading his character through his actions, thinking that a 'good' child just would naturally behave in friendly compassionate ways, because they would have the 'right' feelings and would just know the right way to express them. The opposite of that thought is dangerous - that children who don't know the ways to act considerately have character-deep problems and are showing their bad-ness. It's not bad-ness, it's simple ignorance of the means and methods of our society... and a 5 year old is pretty much entitled to be ignorant of most of those sorts of nuances.



locomom -> RE: Having a Godly attitude... (7/26/2008 4:28:12 PM)

Brava, VisitorinWaiting, brava!

P.S. My dd is 20 yo now so we made it through childhood!



VisitorinWaiting -> RE: Having a Godly attitude... (7/31/2008 5:38:54 PM)

Okay...someone please help me. I have had it...and I don't know how I could have handled this situation differently. I REALLY need to get ds's anger under control. We went a nearby place that rents movies to residents of a certain community. So, we went there to get a movie...me, ds1, ds2, and dd. Before we went in, I went over the rules...talk quietly because the ladies there are sometimes conducting business on the phone and stay close to me. Only two rules. We went in, and immediately, ds1 starts asking for a particular movie VERY LOUDLY. So, I walk over to him, bend down and whisper in his ear, "You are talking too loud. If you don't stop, you won't get a movie at all." So, then he walks away from me, I get him back and say, "You aren't supposed to be there." Then, he starts talking loudly again, I correct him. Ds2 mentions what movie he'd like to see, ds1 shouts, "No!" and begins hitting ds2 in the back. I immediately made everyone leave. More later....there is soooo much more...



manda59 -> RE: Having a Godly attitude... (7/31/2008 6:25:37 PM)

Firstly, were the children at all tired and/or hungry when you all went to this place?

Secondly, I'd honestly suggest telling your son what you want him to do rather than saying what he is doing wrong. And also, not giving threats for misbehaving but positive consequences for behaving.

quote:


We went in, and immediately, ds1 starts asking for a particular movie VERY LOUDLY. So, I walk over to him, bend down and whisper in his ear, "You are talking too loud. If you don't stop, you won't get a movie at all."


I'd have dealt with it by saying "Sweetie, could you say that to me quietly instead and then I will think about it?"

quote:


So, then he walks away from me, I get him back and say, "You aren't supposed to be there."


I'd have said "Sweetie, I need you to stay close to me, come and help me look at these movies"

quote:


Then, he starts talking loudly again, I correct him. Ds2 mentions what movie he'd like to see, ds1 shouts, "No!" and begins hitting ds2 in the back.


Does he ever get alone quality time with either you or your dh, or both? It sounds to me like he might find it quite difficult sharing you - with this constant need to assert himself and get attention, even if it is negative attention. He may be a little jealous of his siblings, and feel insecure.

I'm also not quite sure why you felt the need to leave. If it was me, I'd have involved him in the looking and deciding, rather than allowing his misbehaviour to rule the day.

I think maybe also you may be coming down on him too hard - overreacting to relatively minor things.



VisitorinWaiting -> RE: Having a Godly attitude... (7/31/2008 7:11:51 PM)

I really don't think punching your little brother in the back with your fist is minor. The other things...yes, they were RELATIVELY minor... I only left after punches were thrown.

Anyway, on the way out, he starts yelling and kicking, and I practically push him to the car. He's dragging his feet. I pick him up, put him in his car seat, and he pulls my hair.

Dd is scared because of his yelling, so she starts to cry.

Ds2 starts to cry because we didn't get a movie.

We get home, and he sits in his "naughty spot" for some time, and then eats supper with us. We were giving him the benefit of the doubt and a clean slate so to speak, but he again disobeyed and got sent to bed early. It is only 7:00 here and he's asleep...very unusual for him...so, Manda, yes, he may have been over tired, but this isn't the first time that he's embarrassed me in public because of disobedience...so I don't know whether to attribute this to that because it has happened at times that he wasn't tired, overtired, or anything else... ?

No one gets alone time with me. I don't get alone time. Dh and I rarely get alone time...and that's usually when we are asleep.
They all do have special times alone with daddy though. Usually just on the weekends...and not every weekend because that is really the only time we have to do things as a family...



manda59 -> RE: Having a Godly attitude... (7/31/2008 7:34:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VisitorinWaiting
I really don't think punching your little brother in the back with your fist is minor. The other things...yes, they were RELATIVELY minor... I only left after punches were thrown.


The punching his brother in the back was the culmination. It was not the first thing he did. He was exasperated and hit out. Yes, it was not a good way of expressing himself, but I imagine by then he may have felt like "well I'm the naughty boy so I might as well be naughty".

quote:


Anyway, on the way out, he starts yelling and kicking, and I practically push him to the car. He's dragging his feet. I pick him up, put him in his car seat, and he pulls my hair.


I am not surprised he had a meltdown after all of that.

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We get home, and he sits in his "naughty spot" for some time, and then eats supper with us.


Could I just ask what you told him was the reason for him sitting on the "naughty spot", and for how long he sat there? Also whether he then apologised, and you hugged? Did he have any opportunity at all to get the anger out of his system either before, during or after being on the naughty spot?

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but he again disobeyed and got sent to bed early.


What did he do?

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but this isn't the first time that he's embarrassed me in public because of disobedience...


VisitorinWaiting, is this why you are so hard on him at times? Because you are worried about being embarrassed? And because you think his obedience or otherwise reflects on your ability as a parent?

That is effectively giving other people power over how you deal with your child. He is just acting like a normal little boy, and it's as if you are wanting him to behave well so that other people will think well of you. And IMO that is honestly not fair.

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No one gets alone time with me.


Does your ds not get a story read to him at bedtime; or a prayer time with you or your dh?



VisitorinWaiting -> RE: Having a Godly attitude... (7/31/2008 7:47:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: manda59
Could I just ask what you told him was the reason for him sitting on the "naughty spot", and for how long he sat there? Also whether he then apologised, and you hugged? Did he have any opportunity at all to get the anger out of his system either before, during or after being on the naughty spot?

I explained to him that he was sitting in the naughty spot for pulling my hair and screaming at me. He sat there for about 5 minutes before he said he had to go potty. After it was all said and done, I sat down with him and asked him why he was in the naughty spot. He told me. He said he was sorry, we hugged, kissed, and I told him that I love him.

quote:


What did he do?


He had a fish from a game. He was putting it in his mouth. His dad told him to stop. He didn't. I came to get the fish from him, and he threw it at me.

quote:


VisitorinWaiting, is this why you are so hard on him at times? Because you are worried about being embarrassed? And because you think his obedience or otherwise reflects on your ability as a parent?


EVERYONE in my life that sees me IRL says that I'm not hard enough on him....they say that's how he got "this way" in the first place. I'm not worried about being embarrassed. It takes a lot to embarrass me, and he'd done it at that place before, so if that was what I was worried about, I wouldn't have been back there. It was in reference to the verse in Proverbs about a child bringing his mother to shame because of not honoring her.

quote:


Does your ds not get a story read to him at bedtime; or a prayer time with you or your dh?


Yes, he does...but ds2 and he share a room, so it's not really ALONE time IMO because it's with brother there too... We read and pray with him...but ds2 is usually joining us.



manda59 -> RE: Having a Godly attitude... (7/31/2008 8:14:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VisitorinWaiting
I explained to him that he was sitting in the naughty spot for pulling my hair and screaming at me


So nothing about shouting, misbehaving in the shop or hitting his brother on the back?

quote:


He had a fish from a game. He was putting it in his mouth. His dad told him to stop. He didn't. I came to get the fish from him, and he threw it at me.


Did he do something wrong by having the fish from the game? I'm just thinking that rather than telling him off, it could have been suggested that he put the fish in a safe place until after the meal. Thing is, by letting every little act of "pickleness" into a confrontation, it's pressing his buttons and turning it all into a big deal. Maybe playing down what he does, and getting the end you want by a different means rather than always laying down the law, might get results that are more pleasing to you.

quote:


VisitorinWaiting, is this why you are so hard on him at times? Because you are worried about being embarrassed? And because you think his obedience or otherwise reflects on your ability as a parent?


quote:


EVERYONE in my life that sees me IRL says that I'm not hard enough on him....they say that's how he got "this way" in the first place.


Who is this "everyone"?
And btw, just because one or more people say it, it doesn't mean they're right. Besides, surely how you discipline him in front of others is different from how you discipline him when you're alone with him, so how would they know?

quote:


It was in reference to the verse in Proverbs about a child bringing his mother to shame because of not honoring her.


Do you have the exact reference there so I can look it up? (In any case, I don't believe the verse would be likely to have been referring to a child of 5)



VisitorinWaiting -> RE: Having a Godly attitude... (7/31/2008 8:46:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: manda59
So nothing about shouting, misbehaving in the shop or hitting his brother on the back?

His punishment for how he behaved there was that he doesn't go back there until he can show me that he knows how to behave on a regular basis.

quote:


Did he do something wrong by having the fish from the game? I'm just thinking that rather than telling him off, it could have been suggested that he put the fish in a safe place until after the meal. Thing is, by letting every little act of "pickleness" into a confrontation, it's pressing his buttons and turning it all into a big deal. Maybe playing down what he does, and getting the end you want by a different means rather than always laying down the law, might get results that are more pleasing to you.


He was putting the fish in his mouth and didn't obey when we told him not to do it. Who told him off? Meal time was over...this was after dinner. He was sitting to watch a movie with the family, and he had to be doing something else. Fine...but not putting a fish in your mouth. He had a warning, did not heed it. Having the fish was okay...it was what he was doing with the fish that was not acceptable...and after he threw it, game over.

quote:


Who is this "everyone"?
And btw, just because one or more people say it, it doesn't mean they're right. Besides, surely how you discipline him in front of others is different from how you discipline him when you're alone with him, so how would they know?

My husband, our parents, most anyone in the family...and some friends that have been here when we've had "problems."

quote:


Do you have the exact reference there so I can look it up? (In any case, I don't believe the verse would be likely to have been referring to a child of 5)


Proverbs 29:15 "...a CHILD who gets his own way brings shame to his mother." So, it is referring to a CHILD, and a child who gets his own way. That's what this is all about...getting his own way. He fights for it against me...therefore not honoring me...



manda59 -> RE: Having a Godly attitude... (7/31/2008 9:19:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VisitorinWaiting
His punishment for how he behaved there was that he doesn't go back there until he can show me that he knows how to behave on a regular basis.


I honestly think that is too vague and non-specific, even too far off, for a 5yo child to grasp. He is never going to know if he has managed it or not.

quote:


He was putting the fish in his mouth and didn't obey when we told him not to do it.


Sometimes our children react better to non-direct ways of getting them to do what we want. It doesn't always have to be a case of Parent Issues Order, Child Obeys. Your ds knows exactly what will happen when he does this, he may even WANT a confrontation, a big drama. So maybe the answer is to think up ways of getting him to do what you want, without him getting the confrontation and drama. That's what I found worked with my ds, who was very much like yours.

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Having the fish was okay...it was what he was doing with the fish that was not acceptable...and after he threw it, game over.


This "throwing" seems to happen a lot with him. I reckon you could pretty well guarantee that in any given situation, where he is holding something he shouldn't, he will throw it. It is as if it has become a reflex action for when he is under pressure. Since you know this will happen, you can plan in advance how to deal with the situation another way, so that the throwing doesn't become a problem. Even saying "if I bring you a box, will you put it in there safe for later?" or something like that, might help.

quote:


My husband, our parents, most anyone in the family...and some friends that have been here when we've had "problems."


I am amazed that anyone would suggest that you are harder on him now than you already appear to be. My parents, and my in-laws, said much the same to me, and I ignored them.

quote:


Do you have the exact reference there so I can look it up? (In any case, I don't believe the verse would be likely to have been referring to a child of 5)


quote:


Proverbs 29:15 "...a CHILD who gets his own way brings shame to his mother." So, it is referring to a CHILD, and a child who gets his own way. That's what this is all about...getting his own way. He fights for it against me...therefore not honoring me...


Which version/translation are you getting that from?

All the sources I can find say:

quote:


Pro 29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child left to himself brings shame to his mother.


In other words, you're only quoting half the verse.

The verse is talking about a child who is disciplined, versus a child who is not disciplined. Your child IS disciplined, he is not allowed to just do whatever he likes. Disciplining your child is not about forcing him to obey you, it's about showing him that his behaviour has consequences.

Every single one of us wants our own way. It's part of our fallen human condition. You're not going to be able to programme that out of your son, any more that you can programme it out of yourself.

Forced compliance is not true obedience. True obedience is a choice. And learning to choose to do what's right is an important part of raising our children. Doing the right thing not just because it's what our parents want us to do, but because it's what we want to do.



pbaribeault -> RE: Having a Godly attitude... (7/31/2008 9:22:45 PM)

Manda's giving you some reasonably good stuff, and I think that might work. For the sake of having a variety of options, here's what I'd go with.

As soon as he raised his voice in the video store, I would have started walking for the exit (if necessary, telling the kids, calmly, to come along). If they asked why, say calmly, "Because I have something that I need to teach one of you." I would have used whatever enforcement was necessary to get out of the store. The only thing that would have changed my mind at that point would be, "I'm sorry Mama, I'll be quiet."

Once outside, if exiting had taken very little enforcement, I would sit down on the sidewalk and had them all sit with me. After explaining that I needed to teach the boy in question, and asking the others to be patient, I would start asking questions, in a calm happy teacher-like voice, "Why are we out here? Why did we have to leave? Did you obey the rules? What are the rules for this store? (Rules are best in what to do terms, not what not to do terms) What did you say? Is it OK to say that? What was the problem? Can you show me how to say it well? Can you apologize to me for being noisy? Would you like to go back in?"

You can do this well and friendly-like because he has not done enough to make you angry, embarrassed and reactive. Hopefully your example and the surprise of the new method will help him not to get angry, embarrassed and reactive too. You only saw something you needed to teach him, and so you did. No big deal.

Thank the boy for co-operating, thank the other children for their patience, and go get your movie. If things got out of hand though, proceed directly to wrestling him into the car seat and going home.

Regarding not being 'hard on him'... You don't have to be angry and nasty to hold a child to a standard. You are in control, you are calm, you are deciding what's going to happen. Nothing is going to phase you. You are solid enough to get the job done no matter how he chooses to use his voice, hands or feet against you. He is small, and noise is just noise. You are the adult here.

You can let your actions speak. With the fish, you could have simply, silently and cheerfully started putting away the rest of the game. He'd ask why. You'd say, "Because I don't want the rest of the pieces to get wet." I'd bet that he would immediatly take the fish out, dry it on his shirt and either hand it to you to put away or ask if he is allowed to play now. (On the off chance that he demands the rest of the game, just put it on top of the fridge, tell him that it is yours and you want it kept dry, but that he can keep the one he has, since it's wet already. If that sets him off, do your 'what to do when angry' thing.) I think maybe you reacted with the 'hard line' because you were still angry, embarrassed and reactive from what had gone on earlier with him.

I do think you might be enforcing too much. If you gave less commands and made less detailed rules, perhaps following through to the degree that this child requires might not overwhelm you. It's just another parenting 'chore' - to listen to a child shout and follow a plan to help him stop and discourage him from doing it again. It's not so difficult.



manda59 -> RE: Having a Godly attitude... (7/31/2008 9:28:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pbaribeault
I do think you might be enforcing too much.


Yes, that's it.

(I think that may be one of the reasons for the throwing as well. He knows what he has will be taken away forcibly, so he decides to throw it down in a vain attempt to take control.)

quote:


If you gave less commands and made less detailed rules, perhaps following through to the degree that this child requires might not overwhelm you.


You said it better than me! Yes, I totally agree with this.



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